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Toolmaking in Ireland - Does it still exist?

2»

Comments

  • #32
    Ulixes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭Ulixes


    2011 wrote: »
    Good people can name their price to a point!
    Then it gets cheaper to shop around.

    It seems extrodinary that a trade can pay anything approaching €100,0000 per annum and there is no evidence whatsoever to back it up despite the fact that there is an abundance of evidence to the contrary.

    Leaving the lack of "Google evidence" aside I find it hard to believe that people would be lured from such a lucrative trade by the construction industry. Having worked in this area myself for a long time I have yet to see a any trade paid in excess of this amount.

    I don't know why you guys are smoking, but it must be powerful stuff :)

    I will leave it at that.

    The company I work in pays up to that amount. Obviously I'm not going to name it.

    People weren't lured away from toolmaking into construction, they went into construction instead of toolmaking as it paid better at a lower skill level (during the boom) and construction trades are generally easier than engineering trades.


  • #33
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Ulixes wrote: »
    The company I work in pays up to that amount. Obviously I'm not going to name it.

    Obviously.
    Can you name even one company? Why the secret?
    People weren't lured away from toolmaking into construction, they went into construction instead of toolmaking as it paid better at a lower skill level (during the boom) and construction trades are generally easier than engineering trades.

    I was not going to respond but I find this quite extraordinary.

    So you actually believe that there is no construction trade that requires the same level of skill as toolmaking?
    Or is there no construction trade that has as much to do with engineering as toolmaking?
    Do you really believe that so many tradesmen and women are that lazy and unmotivated?

    I have worked for a number of years in the pharmaceutical industry, semiconductor industry, petrochemical industry and power generation industry in many roles from apprentice to senior design engineer. During that time I have had the pleasure of working with some highly skilled tradesmen that would strongly disagree with you. Can you think why? :confused:

    So in summary your position is that people could have earned €100,000 a year but decided to select an easier trade in the construction industry (easier because none of them have anything to do with engineering) for far less money.

    It is interesting that you mention engineering because not many degree qualified engineers even chartered engineers earn as much as €100,000 a year according to a recent Engineers Ireland survey, but sure what would they know? :rolleyes:


  • #34
    Tony Beetroot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Tony Beetroot


    2011 wrote: »

    It is interesting that you mention engineering because not many degree qualified engineers even chartered engineers earn as much as €100,000 a year according to a recent Engineers Ireland survey, but sure what would they know? :rolleyes:

    Let me guess you have a link for that?


  • #35
    HoggyRS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭HoggyRS


    I used work in a workshop in Bagnelstown in Carlow and toolmaking is a big trade in the factories in that town. However the money was supposed to be poor, well below the sparks rate anyways.

    What does a toolmaker do day to day? Cant really get my head around it as never worked in a factory with them...

    Slightly off topic but the schools should be making an effort to explain and promote apprenticeships to kids, especially in the case that there seems to be a shortage in toolmaking (and im sure in other trades). Instead the country is bloated with young people with level 8 degrees that have no proper link to employment. 6 years in secondrary school I never heard a teacher mention apprenticeships as an option, just figured it out when i got out.


  • #36
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Tony Beetroot wrote: »
    Let me guess you have a link for that?

    I sense that you are disappointed that there is an abundance of evidence from a variety of credible sources that supports my view.
    Here is just one example:

    Morgan McKinley engineering sector salary survey


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  • #37
    Ulixes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭Ulixes


    2011 wrote: »
    I was not going to respond but I find this quite extraordinary.

    So you actually believe that there is no construction trade that requires the same level of skill as toolmaking?
    Or is there no construction trade that has as much to do with engineering as toolmaking?
    Do you really believe that so many tradesmen and women are that lazy and unmotivated?

    I have worked for a number of years in the pharmaceutical industry, semiconductor industry, petrochemical industry and power generation industry in many roles from apprentice to senior design engineer. During that time I have had the pleasure of working with some highly skilled tradesmen that would strongly disagree with you. Can you think why? :confused:
    Firstly I’m delighted that you decided to respond. Let me get that on the record.

    Now, there are lots of people who serve their time as toolmakers who end up in different but related roles. There are lots of people who serve their time as electricians who also end up in different but related roles. An electrician who has specialised in, for example, dealing with and supporting near-wafer equipment in a semiconductor cleanroom is a far cry from a guy doing first and second fix on some thrown-up apartment block in the outskirts of Dublin. It’s also an engineering job and not a construction one. I’m sure we could both agree on that.
    Are you still with me?
    The era of serving your time after which you stop learning but just hone the skills you have is long gone. Just as it has in other sectors. If you started as an apprentice and ended up as a senior design engineer then you know exactly what I’m talking about.
    In the real world of open competition people get paid no more than they are worth but as they continue to learn new skills right through their working life they also make themselves more valuable to their employer. Their job description may not change because in the real world nobody cares what your job description is, they care about what you can do. Nothing gives job security like skill and talent.
    2011 wrote: »
    So in summary your position is that people could have earned €100,000 a year but decided to select an easier trade in the construction industry (easier because none of them have anything to do with engineering) for far less money.
    Thank you for attempting to summarise my position but no, that’s not it at all.
    There wasn’t a brick layer in Ireland earning less than €100’000 a year during the boom. If there was they were either staggeringly bad at their job or staggeringly lazy.
    Electricians and plumbers were earning €250 for a few hours’ worth of a nixer in the evening after doing their day job. Are you seriously suggesting that wasn’t more attractive, and easier, than serving your time as a toolmaker and working exclusively in the PAYE sector (and not being a tax evading thief)?

    2011 wrote: »
    It is interesting that you mention engineering because not many degree qualified engineers even chartered engineers earn as much as €100,000 a year according to a recent Engineers Ireland survey, but sure what would they know? :rolleyes:
    Plenty of them do; The good ones.
    If you aren’t much good or if you opt for a safe role with little pressure of demands on your skills and intellect then you shouldn’t be well paid. As I’ve said before people should get paid based on their value, not their qualification or how many years their arse has polished a particular chair.


  • #38
    Ulixes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭Ulixes


    HoggyRS wrote: »
    I used work in a workshop in Bagnelstown in Carlow and toolmaking is a big trade in the factories in that town. However the money was supposed to be poor, well below the sparks rate anyways.

    What does a toolmaker do day to day? Cant really get my head around it as never worked in a factory with them...

    Slightly off topic but the schools should be making an effort to explain and promote apprenticeships to kids, especially in the case that there seems to be a shortage in toolmaking (and im sure in other trades). Instead the country is bloated with young people with level 8 degrees that have no proper link to employment. 6 years in secondrary school I never heard a teacher mention apprenticeships as an option, just figured it out when i got out.
    Most toolmakers work in manufacturing, mainly precision engineering firms supplying large OEM's (original Equipment Manufacturers). They make everything from artificial joins to equipment used in cardiovascular stents to fluid diagnostics to semiconductor manufacture to Aviation and Space to wind turbines to oil drilling equipment. It's a big sector in this country employing thousands of people and it is very much export focused. The company I work for exports over two thirds of what it makes to places from the UK to the USA to China, Central America and the Middle East.

    There is a big middle-income snobbery about working at anything that involves getting your hands dirty. People would rather their kids do something they are not that interested in and which has no real employment prospects in college than do a trade. Schools are measured by the Irish Times (in good smoked-salmon socialist style) by what proportion of their leaving cert students go to third level, not how many get an apprenticeship.


  • #39
    Tony Beetroot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Tony Beetroot


    2011 wrote: »
    I sense that you are disappointed that there is an abundance of evidence from a variety of credible sources that supports my view.
    Here is just one example:

    Morgan McKinley engineering sector salary survey

    I am not disappointed at all, are you taking it personally that a tool maker is making more than you?


  • #40
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Ulixes wrote: »
    Now, there are lots of people who serve their time as toolmakers who end up in different but related roles.

    I accept that, but if working in a "related role" they are no longer working as a toolmaker.
    Different related roles = different pay.
    I know one guy that started as an apprentice electrician, became an electrical foreman, and eventually a director of a very large well know electrical contracting business. I don't know what he ended up getting paid, but I would imagine over €100,000 per year. However when he got paid this sort of money he was not employed to be an electrician. So it would be misleading to say that he was an electrician that was paid €100,000 per annum.
    There are lots of people who serve their time as electricians who also end up in different but related roles. An electrician who has specialised in, for example, dealing with and supporting near-wafer equipment in a semiconductor cleanroom is a far cry from a guy doing first and second fix on some thrown-up apartment block in the outskirts of Dublin.

    Very true, but in both cases there is a maximum rate of pay beyond which a more economical alternative will be found.
    It’s also an engineering job and not a construction one. I’m sure we could both agree on that.
    Are you still with me?

    No, I don't understand what you mean by that statement.
    Frequently an engineering job is a construction job.
    The era of serving your time after which you stop learning but just hone the skills you have is long gone. Just as it has in other sectors. If you started as an apprentice and ended up as a senior design engineer then you know exactly what I’m talking about.

    Yes I know all about CPDs.
    Many trades and various other professionals do them all the time.
    But I could not make the jump from electrician to engineer without graduating from an accredited engineering degree course. No end of CPDs was going to do that for me. There is a perception that it possible become an engineer by completing a trade apprenticeship.
    This is the list of apprenticeships available in Ireland, none of them claim to turn anyone into an engineer. The same applies to CPDs.

    As an industrial electrician working on what would be considered well paying state of the art projects for a leading company I reached my peak pay. I could not get paid any more for that role as an electrician no matter how much more I learnt or how much more I improved. The way around this for many electricians in this situation was to move into a different role such as foreman, supervisor or retrain and become a technician or QS. However people that did this were no longer working as electricians.
    In the real world of open competition people get paid no more than they are worth but as they continue to learn new skills right through their working life they also make themselves more valuable to their employer. Their job description may not change because in the real world nobody cares what your job description is, they care about what you can do. Nothing gives job security like skill and talent.

    This is true, but only to a point.
    A toolmaker no matter how skilled is only worth so much.
    Beyond that point it makes far more sense to employ someone else or to outsource the work to another company or in many cases another country.
    There wasn’t a brick layer in Ireland earning less than €100,000 a year during the boom. If there was they were either staggeringly bad at their job or staggeringly lazy.

    Brick layers are an interesting case.
    The difference with brick layers is that during the boom they were paid by the brick. Therefore the more bricks they laid the more they made for their employer. That way once the price per brick was agreed there was no further wage negation required.

    It is interesting that you pick them as an example because it became so expensive to get walls built during the boom that architects started to design building so that much less brickwork (or block work) was required. I first saw this when I was working in Dublin airport. Walls that would normally be made out of blocks were made in concrete pours or doubled plasterboard or a combination of both. The brickies simply priced themselves out of the market.

    Electricians and plumbers were earning €250 for a few hours’ worth of a nixer in the evening after doing their day job. Are you seriously suggesting that wasn’t more attractive, and easier, than serving your time as a toolmaker and working exclusively in the PAYE sector (and not being a tax evading thief)?

    You make this statement as though electricians are the only ones to carry out cash in hand nixers. Toolmakers do them too. As a keen target shooter I know many members of my club that have had modifications made to firearms as well as parts made by toolmakers. I can post a photo if you like. I also know of mechanics that get heads skimmed by toolmakers.

    Besides if what you pare saying is true electricians and plumbers would have to do a lot of nixers in their spare time before they would make €100,000 a year.
    If you aren’t much good or if you opt for a safe role with little pressure of demands on your skills and intellect then you shouldn’t be well paid.

    The truth is many highly qualified people do not get well paid for their jobs despite their hard work, dedication and the level of responsibility they have.
    Here is an example of an individual that has a degree in civil engineering. Despite the fact that he has quite a few years experience it seems unlikely that he can get a job that pays €40,000 per annum.

    This is in sharp contrast to your statement that "A reasonably good machinist will earn €50K to €70K a year." without a shred of evidence to back this up. I accept that there are exceptions to every rule but that statement suggests that this is the normal rate of pay for a machinist that is reasonably" good (i.e. not great), seriously?
    As I’ve said before people should get paid based on their value, not their qualification or how many years their arse has polished a particular chair.

    In the real world people do not always get paid as well as they deserve to be. Nurses are a prime example. They are well qualified (they all degree qualified), they work very hard, under enormous pressure with massive responsibility. Don't they deserve to be well paid? Of course they do, but they are not.


  • #41
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Tony Beetroot wrote: »
    I am not disappointed at all, are you taking it personally that a tool maker is making more than you?

    I don't particularly care who makes more money than me.

    How about a reasoned response that comments on the veracity of the survey?


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  • #42
    Tony Beetroot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Tony Beetroot


    How valid is that link? To be honest I dont care. You dont believe toolmakers make up to 100k a year that's quite evident. Do you want me to phone the tool maker I know to join boards and post up his wage slip?
    You now wont believe me when I tell you I know a mechanic who is on 90k a year, google mechanics wages and you will find links or surveys to say a mechanics wage is far less.
    Why is he on this wage you say, well he is **** hot at car diagnostics and not alone that he can fix the problem, we are talking about a mechanic working in a general motors not a dealership.
    I know a plant manager in a quarry who is on 80k a year, again top class talented fella, he is a driver, foreman, mechanic and salesman. He named his price and got it.
    Talented people can name their money and they will get it, they dont go on the google to google what their wages should be.


  • #43
    Ulixes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭Ulixes


    I work with guys earning between €50'000 and €100'000 a year. They are on the shop floor and they are running machines. They are not winding handles as this isn't the 1980's. They are programmers, setters, designers and yes, engineers, all rolled into one.
    They are not degree qualified engineers but they are engineers none the less.

    My point about bricklayer was made to show that during the boom construction trades made well over €100k a year. It was those boom wages that attracted a generation away from engineering trades and into construction trades.

    I am not going to name my place of work on a public forum. If posters choose not to believe me that is their prerogative but I am happy to give more detail via PM.


  • #44
    Tony Beetroot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Tony Beetroot


    Ulixes wrote: »

    I am not going to name my place of work on a public forum. If posters choose not to believe me that is their prerogative but I am happy to give more detail via PM.

    Unless you can provide internet google links I dont think you will be believed.


  • #45
    micks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 840 ✭✭✭micks


    2011 wrote: »
    I don't particularly care who makes more money than me.

    How about a reasoned response that comments on the veracity of the survey?

    I don't particularly care about this argument and I do enjoy your posts in electrical etc
    But you shouldn't be dragging your self thru this

    There are many companies in Ireland paying packages of approx 100k to trade qualified workers

    Can i prove it? no
    Just because there is no evidence in public doesnt mean it to be untrue

    Lets look at it a different way

    http://www.cpl.ie/Library/CPL/cpl.ie/Documents/Cpl-salary-guide-15.pdf
    to go along with your link

    and below Facilities in particular engineers and tech's

    sGYmGa1.png


    jTEgDzw.png

    20% plus swings in the rates that 2 agencies reckon engineers and tech's get paid

    Also all these surveys generalise and will report that rates outside Dublin
    are lower
    There are several examples where this is the opposite

    Companies dont generally dont make public what exactly they pay


  • #46
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Ulixes wrote: »
    I work with guys earning between €50'000 and €100'000 a year. They are on the shop floor and they are running machines. They are not winding handles as this isn't the 1980's. They are programmers, setters, designers and yes, engineers, all rolled into one.
    They are not degree qualified engineers but they are engineers none the less,

    Are you talking about toolmakers or not?

    As per last post to you I accept there are exceptions I am referring to the norm.


  • #47
    Ulixes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭Ulixes


    2011 wrote: »
    Are you talking about toolmakers or not?

    As per last post to you I accept there are exceptions I am referring to the norm.

    Toolmakers are precision machinists. The guys I work with are precision machinists. They don't make press tools but it is the norm that toolmakers work as precision machinists. Moulds and press tools are made in China and imported into Ireland to be run. There is only 1 pure toolmaking company left in Ireland. Toolmaking is the nearest trade qualification we have to what the market fern world needs, as I said in one of my first posts. Is that what you are asking?


  • #48
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Ulixes wrote: »
    Toolmakers are precision machinists. The guys I work with are precision machinists.

    Fair enough.
    They don't make press tools but it is the norm that toolmakers work as precision machinists.

    My understanding is that this is the work that was traditionally performed by toolmakers. Correct?
    Moulds and press tools are made in China and imported into Ireland to be run.

    Yes, this is what I have been told.
    Because it is cheaper?

    So essentially toolmakers in Ireland maintain / repair moulds and press tools that are made elsewhere. When I say this I am not trying to insinuate that this does not require a high level of skill and training, because I know it does.
    There is only 1 pure toolmaking company left in Ireland.

    Why do you think that is?
    Toolmaking is the nearest trade qualification we have to what the market fern world needs, as I said in one of my first posts. Is that what you are asking?

    Yes.

    I was trying to asses the employment opportunities and pay or the "average toolmaker".
    I accept that there may be an exceptional toolroom that pays above the norm, this does not represent the average.
    Following a conversation with a toolmaker that was promoted to toolroom manager he told me that he was now earning around €50,000.
    However this is not for working as a toolmaker, he is now working as a manager of toolmakers.
    It took him over 10 years to get that promotion.


  • #49
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    //MOD

    This only a preemptive warning but the tone is starting to get a tad on the high side bordering on personal accusations etc. so please dial it back just a tad as I don't want to lock the thread where a good discussion is ongoing.

    Cheers.

    //MOD


  • #50
    Ulixes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭Ulixes


    2011 wrote: »
    Fair enough.



    My understanding is that this is the work that was traditionally performed by toolmakers. Correct?



    Yes, this is what I have been told.
    Because it is cheaper?

    So essentially toolmakers in Ireland maintain / repair moulds and press tools that are made elsewhere. When I say this I am not trying to insinuate that this does not require a high level of skill and training, because I know it does.



    Why do you think that is?



    Yes.

    I was trying to asses the employment opportunities and pay or the "average toolmaker".
    I accept that there may be an exceptional toolroom that pays above the norm, this does not represent the average.
    Following a conversation with a toolmaker that was promoted to toolroom manager he told me that he was now earning around €50,000.
    However this is not for working as a toolmaker, he is now working as a manager of toolmakers.
    It took him over 10 years to get that promotion.
    The "usual" work that toolmakers carry out is not toolmaking. It is precision machining. Therefore the average toolmaker doesn't spend his other time making, maintaining or repairing tools.The trade has evolved, just as Engineers don't spend their time making, maintaining or repairing steam engines. Jobs evolve beyond their original descriptive title. The world of jobs demarkated clearly along the lines of titles is, thankfully, becoming a thing of the past.
    I'm not sure what else you are looking for from this thread. In a union shop toolmakers don't earn €100k or anything close to it. Thankfully I've never worked in a union shop so my experience of being paid based on the skills and work ethic of the lowest common denominator is limited.


  • #51
    pidgeoneyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 136 ✭✭pidgeoneyes


    Hi folks,

    What would you think of the job prospects for this course in LIT? I'm hoping to go back as a mature student.

    http://www.lit.ie/Lists/Courses/Attachments/158/Precision%20Engineering%20Brochure_Printed%20Version.pdf


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  • #52
    Ulixes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭Ulixes


    pidgeoneyes wrote: »
    Hi folks,

    What would you think of the job prospects for this course in LIT? I'm hoping to go back as a mature student.
    That course was developed in conjunction with a number of precision machining companies, specifically to address the skills shortage in the sector. Your employment prospects would be excellent.


  • #53
    Hedgecutter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Hedgecutter


    pidgeoneyes wrote: »
    Hi folks,

    What would you think of the job prospects for this course in LIT? I'm hoping to go back as a mature student.

    http://www.lit.ie/Lists/Courses/Attachments/158/Precision%20Engineering%20Brochure_Printed%20Version.pdf

    I was just about to post very same link

    From what I've been told it's been set up by the industry along with LIT to fill a skill shortage.

    I'm working in a precision company and this course is an option for me, night time modules proving hard to get but hopefully down the line I'll be on this.

    As for the tool makers, I'm surrounded by them and like all walked of life the good ones are on decent money but the poor one are not.
    Speaking to lectures about tooling making they say a lot of the skills are not used any more because of CNC advances and they are mainly programming, setting machines.


  • #54
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    pidgeoneyes wrote: »
    Hi folks,

    What would you think of the job prospects for this course in LIT? I'm hoping to go back as a mature student.

    http://www.lit.ie/Lists/Courses/Attachments/158/Precision%20Engineering%20Brochure_Printed%20Version.pdf

    Fair play to you, it is quite an undertaking.
    Speaking as someone that did what you are considering i.e. completed an engineering degree post apprenticeship and as a mature student I would strongly recommend that you ensure that the degree course you select is accredited by Engineer's Ireland.

    Graduates from accredited degree courses are far more employable, demand higher wages and have the advantage of having their qualification recognised worldwide. If the course you have selected is not accredited you will most likely find that there is an equivalent one that is.

    Good luck with whatever you decide.


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