Toolmaking in Ireland - Does it still exist?

2011

I was talking to a teenager recently that wants to serve his time as a toolmaker. I felt this was not a good idea, and said that as far as I knew this trade had all but died in Ireland.

Perhaps someone here can offer a more informed opinion.

Panda General

2011 wrote: »

I was talking to a teenager recently that wants to serve his time as a toolmaker. I felt this was not a good idea, and said that as far as I knew this trade had all but died in Ireland.

Perhaps someone here can offer a more informed opinion.

I see the odd apprenticeship being offered in toolmaking on the fas website so am guessing it is still alive and kicking

murphym7

I work in manufacturing and we have 5/6 toolmakers. You will find them in a lot of manufacturing facilities.

redved

As above, from what I can see there is a lot of work available for tool makers.

for example any of the of the medical devices companies would be using tool makers constantly either their own or outide contractors

DULLAHAN2

I was thinking about doing an apprenticeship in toolmaking, a couple of positions have opened up that i know off. I was wondering what would be the Salary range of a fully qualified toolmaker?

greenbicycle

There is actually a huge demand for tool makers. The most recent forfas report actually lists toolmakers as something we are short of in ireland and recommend that we need To train people in this line of work. As others have said medical devices is one area where toolmakers are really needed.

Condatis

Apart from areas mentioned above there would be opportunities also in some process industries including food production also clothing manufacturing.

topcat77

From my experience toolmaking has almost died out all together. You might have people claiming to be toolmakers but they are just a machinist or CNC setters. Don't get me wrong there is a lot to be said for a good machinists. To be a toolmaker you'll be making presstools from scratch (machining, grinding and fitting). not that work around anymore.

topcat77

DULLAHAN2 wrote: »

I was thinking about doing an apprenticeship in toolmaking, a couple of positions have opened up that i know off. I was wondering what would be the Salary range of a fully qualified toolmaker?

€30'000 to start then it'll depend on how good you are.

bbam

I was on maintenance contract in a medical mfg company last year.. They had a huge tool room and about 20 toolmakers..
Two apprentices there, I was talking to one of the lads and he said his trades were on hold as FAS weren't running the block release as there were less than 10 apprentices at his level in the whole country and they couldn't justify running the release.. He had been told he could wait for anything up to two years before there would be enough..

Its a good trade, but opportunities are scarce... maybe it has improved since then.

darlenmol

I want to bump this thread as i'm considering an apprenticeship in toolmaking and wonder if demand has increased at all for them.

ChicagoJoe

darlenmol wrote: »

I want to bump this thread as i'm considering an apprenticeship in toolmaking and wonder if demand has increased at all for them.

Friend of mine was a toolmaker for 10 years, he got out of it. Unfortunately like too many jobs these days it's all temporary contract work with no union representation etc. And it's not like been say, an electrician where you can branch into other areas of work besides wiring houses like machine maintenance, lift or escalator installation and so on. All I can say is that this guy very much regrets getting into it. I'd go for electrician warts an all that the trade has and in recession you can always make a bit on the side with nixers.

2011

darlenmol wrote: »

I want to bump this thread as i'm considering an apprenticeship in toolmaking and wonder if demand has increased at all for them.

From talking to those in the trade since I started this thread it would seem that this trade is all but dead in Ireland. Most companies get thier tools made in China for a fraction of the rate. This drives down rates of pay and the demand for that trade over here.

darlenmol

Thanks a lot for the replys. Im stuck in an obsolete profession as it is I'll be damned if I walk into another.

Halpenny

For those of you that are interested Sligo IT are actually looking for an Assistant Lecturer in Toolmaking. Closing date this Friday 12th.

Click SEARCH here to get details: https://recruit.ancheim.ie/its/rec/erq_search_package.search_form?p_company=1&p_internal_external=E&p_display_in_Irish=N

CatFromHue

I don't know if it's completely dead as I have seen a few jobs advertised by Med Device companies for jobs were they'd like the candidates to have tool making experience.

It could be that as more Med Device companies come and start up here that the trade will start to get a revival.

I know there's a problem in that area where they need experienced injection moulding/plastic engineers but struggle to find them in Ireland as the whole plastic engineering area wound down in Ireland about 10 years ago.

Ulixes

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't know if it's completely dead as I have seen a few jobs advertised by Med Device companies for jobs were they'd like the candidates to have tool making experience.

It could be that as more Med Device companies come and start up here that the trade will start to get a revival.

I know there's a problem in that area where they need experienced injection moulding/plastic engineers but struggle to find them in Ireland as the whole plastic engineering area wound down in Ireland about 10 years ago.

There is a global shortage of machinists, particularly CNC machinists and programmers.
Ireland is no exception; jobs here are being filled by Polish and other Eastern European tradesmen. Thankfully they have much better trade schools than us which seem to attract more intelligent people.
Toolmaking, while not exactly the same thing, is the closest trade qualification there is to the required skill set. A "good pair of hands" is well down the list of what you need though. You need to be intelligent and willing to learn CAD and CAM as well as other technical skills. If you do this you will never be out of work and will be welcomed into any country in the world to work.

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

There is a global shortage of machinists, particularly CNC machinists and programmers.
Ireland is no exception; jobs here are being filled by Polish and other Eastern European tradesmen. Thankfully they have much better trade schools than us which seem to attract more intelligent people.

The reason that there is a shortage and east Europeans are filling these positions is because they have a far lower cost of living in their own countries. Many Irish will not or can not afford to work of such low wages.

Ulixes

2011 wrote: »

The reason that there is a shortage and east Europeans are filling these positions is because they have a far lower cost of living in their own countries. Many Irish will not or can not afford to work of such low wages.

A reasonably good machinist will earn €50K to €70K a year.
A good one will earn considerably more.
That's not a low wage in my world.

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

A reasonably good machinist will earn €50K to €70K a year.
A good one will earn considerably more.
That's not a low wage in my world.

Where are you getting your information from?
That is nowhere near the average wage of that role.
How can you explain the shortage of these people?

Ulixes

2011 wrote: »

Where are you getting your information from?
That is nowhere near the average wage of that role.
How can you explain the shortage of these people?

I'm a qualified toolmaker, working in the precision machining sector.
The biggest limiting factor in expansion for us and our competitors, both here and in the UK, is the lack of skilled labour. If we could get good machinists for €40K a year we'd be delighted but we can't. Obviously people can be paid whatever they are worth so if someone wants €100K a year and can still make money for their employer then that's what they can earn. As long as you don't have a union screwing things up for everyone then wages are based on the value of the employee.

The construction boom robbed Ireland of a generation of machinists and time served engineers because people could make big money working in semi-skilled roles on building sites. That and the fact that it's a hard trade to do, requiring more intelligence than most trades to become proficient, meant that people didn't bother to go into it.
I'm not talking about traditional toolmaking, I'm talking about CNC machining. There is no specific trade for that but toolmaking is the closest thing to it.

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

I'm a qualified toolmaker, working in the precision machining sector.
The biggest limiting factor in expansion for us and our competitors, both here and in the UK, is the lack of skilled labour. If we could get good machinists for €40K a year we'd be delighted but we can't. Obviously people can be paid whatever they are worth so if someone wants €100K a year and can still make money for their employer then that's what they can earn. As long as you don't have a union screwing things up for everyone then wages are based on the value of the employee.

The construction boom robbed Ireland of a generation of machinists and time served engineers because people could make big money working in semi-skilled roles on building sites. That and the fact that it's a hard trade to do, requiring more intelligence than most trades to become proficient, meant that people didn't bother to go into it.
I'm not talking about traditional toolmaking, I'm talking about CNC machining. There is no specific trade for that but toolmaking is the closest thing to it.

So can you post one link to any jobs in Ireland that are offering a salary of €50,000 to €70,000 for the types of role you have described ?
Why would people be sucked in by the building sector when wages are so high for this type of work?
I know of toolmakers working for a fraction of that in more than one location. They would be very interested to hear of this.

Whatever about the figures above €100,000 seems an extraordinary amount for any machine operator / toolmaker / CNC operator to earn in Ireland. Do you know of any?

Here are the highest salaries that I see for those roles:

€32k to €38k

€35 - 40K

Jim2007

2011 wrote: »

I was talking to a teenager recently that wants to serve his time as a toolmaker. I felt this was not a good idea, and said that as far as I knew this trade had all but died in Ireland.

Perhaps someone here can offer a more informed opinion.

I would not discourage him just because there might not be a job in Ireland for him! I'd rathe have him doing something he is passionate about somewhere else in Europe than struggling with a job that he hates. Tell him to learn German at the same time and he'll always find something in mainland Europe in any case.

2011

Jim2007 wrote: »

I would not discourage him just because there might not be a job in Ireland for him!

But he wants to live in Ireland.
We don't all want to emigrate.

He concluded that there were no toolmaking jobs in Ireland that paid enough. He is now doing an electrical apprenticeship and loving it.

Tony Beetroot

I know plenty highly experienced tool makers who are earning close to 100k. Just because there is no internet links to such cases does not mean they dont exist.

2011

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

I know plenty highly experienced tool makers who are earning close to 100k. Just because there is no internet links to such cases does not mean they dont exist.

As a toolmaker? Not a manager or supervisor? For what companies?

Amazing because they would be able to employ at least two experienced toolmakers for the money and still have change at the present rates offered.
I wonder why so many were lured away from this trade and into construction?

I have worked in construction for a long time and have yet to meet a tradesman working for a company that makes €100,000 per annum.

Ulixes

2011 wrote: »

As a toolmaker? Not a manager or supervisor? For what companies?

Amazing because they would be able to employ at least two experienced toolmakers for the money and still have change at the present rates offered.
I wonder why so many were lured away from this trade and into construction?

I have worked in construction for a long time and have yet to meet a tradesman working for a company that makes €100,000 per annum.

There's no way you'd get a good toolmaker at the top of their game for €50k a year.
You might get a time served toolmaker who hasn't kept up with changes in technology and work practices but those guys are bugger all use.

There's also no way you'd get top rates in a unionised business as by their nature they will be fat and inefficient organisations which don't reward excellence.

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

There's no way you'd get a good toolmaker at the top of their game for €50k a year.
You might get a time served toolmaker who hasn't kept up with changes in technology and work practices but those guys are bugger all use.

There's also no way you'd get top rates in a unionised business as by their nature they will be fat and inefficient organisations which don't reward excellence.

You have answered none of the questions asked in my previous post.
So I will ask one of them again, can you name one company that pays these rates?

I can find neumerous links to job offers that offer far lower rates.

Tony Beetroot

Good people can name their price, what is this obsession in naming companies or providing links off the Google machine to prove that some toolmakers are making these wages.

2011

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

Good people can name their price, what is this obsession in naming companies or providing links off the Google machine to prove that some toolmakers are making these wages.

Good people can name their price to a point!
Then it gets cheaper to shop around.

It seems extrodinary that a trade can pay anything approaching €100,0000 per annum and there is no evidence whatsoever to back it up despite the fact that there is an abundance of evidence to the contrary.

Leaving the lack of "Google evidence" aside I find it hard to believe that people would be lured from such a lucrative trade by the construction industry. Having worked in this area myself for a long time I have yet to see a any trade paid in excess of this amount.

I don't know why you guys are smoking, but it must be powerful stuff

I will leave it at that.

Tony Beetroot

I do not smoke at all anyway, I think its best you leave it there too as this thread is gone silly.