Toolmaking in Ireland - Does it still exist?

2011

I was talking to a teenager recently that wants to serve his time as a toolmaker. I felt this was not a good idea, and said that as far as I knew this trade had all but died in Ireland.

Perhaps someone here can offer a more informed opinion.

Panda General

2011 wrote: »

I was talking to a teenager recently that wants to serve his time as a toolmaker. I felt this was not a good idea, and said that as far as I knew this trade had all but died in Ireland.

Perhaps someone here can offer a more informed opinion.

I see the odd apprenticeship being offered in toolmaking on the fas website so am guessing it is still alive and kicking

murphym7

I work in manufacturing and we have 5/6 toolmakers. You will find them in a lot of manufacturing facilities.

redved

As above, from what I can see there is a lot of work available for tool makers.

for example any of the of the medical devices companies would be using tool makers constantly either their own or outide contractors

DULLAHAN2

I was thinking about doing an apprenticeship in toolmaking, a couple of positions have opened up that i know off. I was wondering what would be the Salary range of a fully qualified toolmaker?

greenbicycle

There is actually a huge demand for tool makers. The most recent forfas report actually lists toolmakers as something we are short of in ireland and recommend that we need To train people in this line of work. As others have said medical devices is one area where toolmakers are really needed.

Condatis

Apart from areas mentioned above there would be opportunities also in some process industries including food production also clothing manufacturing.

topcat77

From my experience toolmaking has almost died out all together. You might have people claiming to be toolmakers but they are just a machinist or CNC setters. Don't get me wrong there is a lot to be said for a good machinists. To be a toolmaker you'll be making presstools from scratch (machining, grinding and fitting). not that work around anymore.

topcat77

DULLAHAN2 wrote: »

I was thinking about doing an apprenticeship in toolmaking, a couple of positions have opened up that i know off. I was wondering what would be the Salary range of a fully qualified toolmaker?

€30'000 to start then it'll depend on how good you are.

bbam

I was on maintenance contract in a medical mfg company last year.. They had a huge tool room and about 20 toolmakers..
Two apprentices there, I was talking to one of the lads and he said his trades were on hold as FAS weren't running the block release as there were less than 10 apprentices at his level in the whole country and they couldn't justify running the release.. He had been told he could wait for anything up to two years before there would be enough..

Its a good trade, but opportunities are scarce... maybe it has improved since then.

darlenmol

I want to bump this thread as i'm considering an apprenticeship in toolmaking and wonder if demand has increased at all for them.

ChicagoJoe

darlenmol wrote: »

I want to bump this thread as i'm considering an apprenticeship in toolmaking and wonder if demand has increased at all for them.

Friend of mine was a toolmaker for 10 years, he got out of it. Unfortunately like too many jobs these days it's all temporary contract work with no union representation etc. And it's not like been say, an electrician where you can branch into other areas of work besides wiring houses like machine maintenance, lift or escalator installation and so on. All I can say is that this guy very much regrets getting into it. I'd go for electrician warts an all that the trade has and in recession you can always make a bit on the side with nixers.

2011

darlenmol wrote: »

I want to bump this thread as i'm considering an apprenticeship in toolmaking and wonder if demand has increased at all for them.

From talking to those in the trade since I started this thread it would seem that this trade is all but dead in Ireland. Most companies get thier tools made in China for a fraction of the rate. This drives down rates of pay and the demand for that trade over here.

darlenmol

Thanks a lot for the replys. Im stuck in an obsolete profession as it is I'll be damned if I walk into another.

Halpenny

For those of you that are interested Sligo IT are actually looking for an Assistant Lecturer in Toolmaking. Closing date this Friday 12th.

Click SEARCH here to get details: https://recruit.ancheim.ie/its/rec/erq_search_package.search_form?p_company=1&p_internal_external=E&p_display_in_Irish=N

CatFromHue

I don't know if it's completely dead as I have seen a few jobs advertised by Med Device companies for jobs were they'd like the candidates to have tool making experience.

It could be that as more Med Device companies come and start up here that the trade will start to get a revival.

I know there's a problem in that area where they need experienced injection moulding/plastic engineers but struggle to find them in Ireland as the whole plastic engineering area wound down in Ireland about 10 years ago.

Ulixes

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't know if it's completely dead as I have seen a few jobs advertised by Med Device companies for jobs were they'd like the candidates to have tool making experience.

It could be that as more Med Device companies come and start up here that the trade will start to get a revival.

I know there's a problem in that area where they need experienced injection moulding/plastic engineers but struggle to find them in Ireland as the whole plastic engineering area wound down in Ireland about 10 years ago.

There is a global shortage of machinists, particularly CNC machinists and programmers.
Ireland is no exception; jobs here are being filled by Polish and other Eastern European tradesmen. Thankfully they have much better trade schools than us which seem to attract more intelligent people.
Toolmaking, while not exactly the same thing, is the closest trade qualification there is to the required skill set. A "good pair of hands" is well down the list of what you need though. You need to be intelligent and willing to learn CAD and CAM as well as other technical skills. If you do this you will never be out of work and will be welcomed into any country in the world to work.

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

There is a global shortage of machinists, particularly CNC machinists and programmers.
Ireland is no exception; jobs here are being filled by Polish and other Eastern European tradesmen. Thankfully they have much better trade schools than us which seem to attract more intelligent people.

The reason that there is a shortage and east Europeans are filling these positions is because they have a far lower cost of living in their own countries. Many Irish will not or can not afford to work of such low wages.

Ulixes

2011 wrote: »

The reason that there is a shortage and east Europeans are filling these positions is because they have a far lower cost of living in their own countries. Many Irish will not or can not afford to work of such low wages.

A reasonably good machinist will earn €50K to €70K a year.
A good one will earn considerably more.
That's not a low wage in my world.

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

A reasonably good machinist will earn €50K to €70K a year.
A good one will earn considerably more.
That's not a low wage in my world.

Where are you getting your information from?
That is nowhere near the average wage of that role.
How can you explain the shortage of these people?

Ulixes

2011 wrote: »

Where are you getting your information from?
That is nowhere near the average wage of that role.
How can you explain the shortage of these people?

I'm a qualified toolmaker, working in the precision machining sector.
The biggest limiting factor in expansion for us and our competitors, both here and in the UK, is the lack of skilled labour. If we could get good machinists for €40K a year we'd be delighted but we can't. Obviously people can be paid whatever they are worth so if someone wants €100K a year and can still make money for their employer then that's what they can earn. As long as you don't have a union screwing things up for everyone then wages are based on the value of the employee.

The construction boom robbed Ireland of a generation of machinists and time served engineers because people could make big money working in semi-skilled roles on building sites. That and the fact that it's a hard trade to do, requiring more intelligence than most trades to become proficient, meant that people didn't bother to go into it.
I'm not talking about traditional toolmaking, I'm talking about CNC machining. There is no specific trade for that but toolmaking is the closest thing to it.

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

I'm a qualified toolmaker, working in the precision machining sector.
The biggest limiting factor in expansion for us and our competitors, both here and in the UK, is the lack of skilled labour. If we could get good machinists for €40K a year we'd be delighted but we can't. Obviously people can be paid whatever they are worth so if someone wants €100K a year and can still make money for their employer then that's what they can earn. As long as you don't have a union screwing things up for everyone then wages are based on the value of the employee.

The construction boom robbed Ireland of a generation of machinists and time served engineers because people could make big money working in semi-skilled roles on building sites. That and the fact that it's a hard trade to do, requiring more intelligence than most trades to become proficient, meant that people didn't bother to go into it.
I'm not talking about traditional toolmaking, I'm talking about CNC machining. There is no specific trade for that but toolmaking is the closest thing to it.

So can you post one link to any jobs in Ireland that are offering a salary of €50,000 to €70,000 for the types of role you have described ?
Why would people be sucked in by the building sector when wages are so high for this type of work?
I know of toolmakers working for a fraction of that in more than one location. They would be very interested to hear of this.

Whatever about the figures above €100,000 seems an extraordinary amount for any machine operator / toolmaker / CNC operator to earn in Ireland. Do you know of any?

Here are the highest salaries that I see for those roles:

€32k to €38k

€35 - 40K

Jim2007

2011 wrote: »

I was talking to a teenager recently that wants to serve his time as a toolmaker. I felt this was not a good idea, and said that as far as I knew this trade had all but died in Ireland.

Perhaps someone here can offer a more informed opinion.

I would not discourage him just because there might not be a job in Ireland for him! I'd rathe have him doing something he is passionate about somewhere else in Europe than struggling with a job that he hates. Tell him to learn German at the same time and he'll always find something in mainland Europe in any case.

2011

Jim2007 wrote: »

I would not discourage him just because there might not be a job in Ireland for him!

But he wants to live in Ireland.
We don't all want to emigrate.

He concluded that there were no toolmaking jobs in Ireland that paid enough. He is now doing an electrical apprenticeship and loving it.

Tony Beetroot

I know plenty highly experienced tool makers who are earning close to 100k. Just because there is no internet links to such cases does not mean they dont exist.

2011

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

I know plenty highly experienced tool makers who are earning close to 100k. Just because there is no internet links to such cases does not mean they dont exist.

As a toolmaker? Not a manager or supervisor? For what companies?

Amazing because they would be able to employ at least two experienced toolmakers for the money and still have change at the present rates offered.
I wonder why so many were lured away from this trade and into construction?

I have worked in construction for a long time and have yet to meet a tradesman working for a company that makes €100,000 per annum.

Ulixes

2011 wrote: »

As a toolmaker? Not a manager or supervisor? For what companies?

Amazing because they would be able to employ at least two experienced toolmakers for the money and still have change at the present rates offered.
I wonder why so many were lured away from this trade and into construction?

I have worked in construction for a long time and have yet to meet a tradesman working for a company that makes €100,000 per annum.

There's no way you'd get a good toolmaker at the top of their game for €50k a year.
You might get a time served toolmaker who hasn't kept up with changes in technology and work practices but those guys are bugger all use.

There's also no way you'd get top rates in a unionised business as by their nature they will be fat and inefficient organisations which don't reward excellence.

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

There's no way you'd get a good toolmaker at the top of their game for €50k a year.
You might get a time served toolmaker who hasn't kept up with changes in technology and work practices but those guys are bugger all use.

There's also no way you'd get top rates in a unionised business as by their nature they will be fat and inefficient organisations which don't reward excellence.

You have answered none of the questions asked in my previous post.
So I will ask one of them again, can you name one company that pays these rates?

I can find neumerous links to job offers that offer far lower rates.

Tony Beetroot

Good people can name their price, what is this obsession in naming companies or providing links off the Google machine to prove that some toolmakers are making these wages.

2011

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

Good people can name their price, what is this obsession in naming companies or providing links off the Google machine to prove that some toolmakers are making these wages.

Good people can name their price to a point!
Then it gets cheaper to shop around.

It seems extrodinary that a trade can pay anything approaching €100,0000 per annum and there is no evidence whatsoever to back it up despite the fact that there is an abundance of evidence to the contrary.

Leaving the lack of "Google evidence" aside I find it hard to believe that people would be lured from such a lucrative trade by the construction industry. Having worked in this area myself for a long time I have yet to see a any trade paid in excess of this amount.

I don't know why you guys are smoking, but it must be powerful stuff

I will leave it at that.

Tony Beetroot

I do not smoke at all anyway, I think its best you leave it there too as this thread is gone silly.

Ulixes

2011 wrote: »

Good people can name their price to a point!
Then it gets cheaper to shop around.

It seems extrodinary that a trade can pay anything approaching €100,0000 per annum and there is no evidence whatsoever to back it up despite the fact that there is an abundance of evidence to the contrary.

Leaving the lack of "Google evidence" aside I find it hard to believe that people would be lured from such a lucrative trade by the construction industry. Having worked in this area myself for a long time I have yet to see a any trade paid in excess of this amount.

I don't know why you guys are smoking, but it must be powerful stuff

I will leave it at that.

The company I work in pays up to that amount. Obviously I'm not going to name it.

People weren't lured away from toolmaking into construction, they went into construction instead of toolmaking as it paid better at a lower skill level (during the boom) and construction trades are generally easier than engineering trades.

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

The company I work in pays up to that amount. Obviously I'm not going to name it.

Obviously.
Can you name even one company? Why the secret?

People weren't lured away from toolmaking into construction, they went into construction instead of toolmaking as it paid better at a lower skill level (during the boom) and construction trades are generally easier than engineering trades.

I was not going to respond but I find this quite extraordinary.

So you actually believe that there is no construction trade that requires the same level of skill as toolmaking?
Or is there no construction trade that has as much to do with engineering as toolmaking?
Do you really believe that so many tradesmen and women are that lazy and unmotivated?

I have worked for a number of years in the pharmaceutical industry, semiconductor industry, petrochemical industry and power generation industry in many roles from apprentice to senior design engineer. During that time I have had the pleasure of working with some highly skilled tradesmen that would strongly disagree with you. Can you think why?

So in summary your position is that people could have earned €100,000 a year but decided to select an easier trade in the construction industry (easier because none of them have anything to do with engineering) for far less money.

It is interesting that you mention engineering because not many degree qualified engineers even chartered engineers earn as much as €100,000 a year according to a recent Engineers Ireland survey, but sure what would they know? :rolleyes:

Tony Beetroot

2011 wrote: »

It is interesting that you mention engineering because not many degree qualified engineers even chartered engineers earn as much as €100,000 a year according to a recent Engineers Ireland survey, but sure what would they know? :rolleyes:

Let me guess you have a link for that?

HoggyRS

I used work in a workshop in Bagnelstown in Carlow and toolmaking is a big trade in the factories in that town. However the money was supposed to be poor, well below the sparks rate anyways.

What does a toolmaker do day to day? Cant really get my head around it as never worked in a factory with them...

Slightly off topic but the schools should be making an effort to explain and promote apprenticeships to kids, especially in the case that there seems to be a shortage in toolmaking (and im sure in other trades). Instead the country is bloated with young people with level 8 degrees that have no proper link to employment. 6 years in secondrary school I never heard a teacher mention apprenticeships as an option, just figured it out when i got out.

2011

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

Let me guess you have a link for that?

I sense that you are disappointed that there is an abundance of evidence from a variety of credible sources that supports my view.
Here is just one example:

Morgan McKinley engineering sector salary survey

Ulixes

2011 wrote: »

I was not going to respond but I find this quite extraordinary.

So you actually believe that there is no construction trade that requires the same level of skill as toolmaking?
Or is there no construction trade that has as much to do with engineering as toolmaking?
Do you really believe that so many tradesmen and women are that lazy and unmotivated?

I have worked for a number of years in the pharmaceutical industry, semiconductor industry, petrochemical industry and power generation industry in many roles from apprentice to senior design engineer. During that time I have had the pleasure of working with some highly skilled tradesmen that would strongly disagree with you. Can you think why?

Firstly I’m delighted that you decided to respond. Let me get that on the record.

Now, there are lots of people who serve their time as toolmakers who end up in different but related roles. There are lots of people who serve their time as electricians who also end up in different but related roles. An electrician who has specialised in, for example, dealing with and supporting near-wafer equipment in a semiconductor cleanroom is a far cry from a guy doing first and second fix on some thrown-up apartment block in the outskirts of Dublin. It’s also an engineering job and not a construction one. I’m sure we could both agree on that.
Are you still with me?
The era of serving your time after which you stop learning but just hone the skills you have is long gone. Just as it has in other sectors. If you started as an apprentice and ended up as a senior design engineer then you know exactly what I’m talking about.
In the real world of open competition people get paid no more than they are worth but as they continue to learn new skills right through their working life they also make themselves more valuable to their employer. Their job description may not change because in the real world nobody cares what your job description is, they care about what you can do. Nothing gives job security like skill and talent.

2011 wrote: »

So in summary your position is that people could have earned €100,000 a year but decided to select an easier trade in the construction industry (easier because none of them have anything to do with engineering) for far less money.

Thank you for attempting to summarise my position but no, that’s not it at all.
There wasn’t a brick layer in Ireland earning less than €100’000 a year during the boom. If there was they were either staggeringly bad at their job or staggeringly lazy.
Electricians and plumbers were earning €250 for a few hours’ worth of a nixer in the evening after doing their day job. Are you seriously suggesting that wasn’t more attractive, and easier, than serving your time as a toolmaker and working exclusively in the PAYE sector (and not being a tax evading thief)?

2011 wrote: »

It is interesting that you mention engineering because not many degree qualified engineers even chartered engineers earn as much as €100,000 a year according to a recent Engineers Ireland survey, but sure what would they know? :rolleyes:

Plenty of them do; The good ones.
If you aren’t much good or if you opt for a safe role with little pressure of demands on your skills and intellect then you shouldn’t be well paid. As I’ve said before people should get paid based on their value, not their qualification or how many years their arse has polished a particular chair.

Ulixes

HoggyRS wrote: »

I used work in a workshop in Bagnelstown in Carlow and toolmaking is a big trade in the factories in that town. However the money was supposed to be poor, well below the sparks rate anyways.

What does a toolmaker do day to day? Cant really get my head around it as never worked in a factory with them...

Slightly off topic but the schools should be making an effort to explain and promote apprenticeships to kids, especially in the case that there seems to be a shortage in toolmaking (and im sure in other trades). Instead the country is bloated with young people with level 8 degrees that have no proper link to employment. 6 years in secondrary school I never heard a teacher mention apprenticeships as an option, just figured it out when i got out.

Most toolmakers work in manufacturing, mainly precision engineering firms supplying large OEM's (original Equipment Manufacturers). They make everything from artificial joins to equipment used in cardiovascular stents to fluid diagnostics to semiconductor manufacture to Aviation and Space to wind turbines to oil drilling equipment. It's a big sector in this country employing thousands of people and it is very much export focused. The company I work for exports over two thirds of what it makes to places from the UK to the USA to China, Central America and the Middle East.

There is a big middle-income snobbery about working at anything that involves getting your hands dirty. People would rather their kids do something they are not that interested in and which has no real employment prospects in college than do a trade. Schools are measured by the Irish Times (in good smoked-salmon socialist style) by what proportion of their leaving cert students go to third level, not how many get an apprenticeship.

Tony Beetroot

2011 wrote: »

I sense that you are disappointed that there is an abundance of evidence from a variety of credible sources that supports my view.
Here is just one example:

Morgan McKinley engineering sector salary survey

I am not disappointed at all, are you taking it personally that a tool maker is making more than you?

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

Now, there are lots of people who serve their time as toolmakers who end up in different but related roles.

I accept that, but if working in a "related role" they are no longer working as a toolmaker.
Different related roles = different pay.
I know one guy that started as an apprentice electrician, became an electrical foreman, and eventually a director of a very large well know electrical contracting business. I don't know what he ended up getting paid, but I would imagine over €100,000 per year. However when he got paid this sort of money he was not employed to be an electrician. So it would be misleading to say that he was an electrician that was paid €100,000 per annum.

There are lots of people who serve their time as electricians who also end up in different but related roles. An electrician who has specialised in, for example, dealing with and supporting near-wafer equipment in a semiconductor cleanroom is a far cry from a guy doing first and second fix on some thrown-up apartment block in the outskirts of Dublin.

Very true, but in both cases there is a maximum rate of pay beyond which a more economical alternative will be found.

It’s also an engineering job and not a construction one. I’m sure we could both agree on that.
Are you still with me?

No, I don't understand what you mean by that statement.
Frequently an engineering job is a construction job.

The era of serving your time after which you stop learning but just hone the skills you have is long gone. Just as it has in other sectors. If you started as an apprentice and ended up as a senior design engineer then you know exactly what I’m talking about.

Yes I know all about CPDs.
Many trades and various other professionals do them all the time.
But I could not make the jump from electrician to engineer without graduating from an accredited engineering degree course. No end of CPDs was going to do that for me. There is a perception that it possible become an engineer by completing a trade apprenticeship.
This is the list of apprenticeships available in Ireland, none of them claim to turn anyone into an engineer. The same applies to CPDs.

As an industrial electrician working on what would be considered well paying state of the art projects for a leading company I reached my peak pay. I could not get paid any more for that role as an electrician no matter how much more I learnt or how much more I improved. The way around this for many electricians in this situation was to move into a different role such as foreman, supervisor or retrain and become a technician or QS. However people that did this were no longer working as electricians.

In the real world of open competition people get paid no more than they are worth but as they continue to learn new skills right through their working life they also make themselves more valuable to their employer. Their job description may not change because in the real world nobody cares what your job description is, they care about what you can do. Nothing gives job security like skill and talent.

This is true, but only to a point.
A toolmaker no matter how skilled is only worth so much.
Beyond that point it makes far more sense to employ someone else or to outsource the work to another company or in many cases another country.

There wasn’t a brick layer in Ireland earning less than €100,000 a year during the boom. If there was they were either staggeringly bad at their job or staggeringly lazy.

Brick layers are an interesting case.
The difference with brick layers is that during the boom they were paid by the brick. Therefore the more bricks they laid the more they made for their employer. That way once the price per brick was agreed there was no further wage negation required.

It is interesting that you pick them as an example because it became so expensive to get walls built during the boom that architects started to design building so that much less brickwork (or block work) was required. I first saw this when I was working in Dublin airport. Walls that would normally be made out of blocks were made in concrete pours or doubled plasterboard or a combination of both. The brickies simply priced themselves out of the market.

Electricians and plumbers were earning €250 for a few hours’ worth of a nixer in the evening after doing their day job. Are you seriously suggesting that wasn’t more attractive, and easier, than serving your time as a toolmaker and working exclusively in the PAYE sector (and not being a tax evading thief)?

You make this statement as though electricians are the only ones to carry out cash in hand nixers. Toolmakers do them too. As a keen target shooter I know many members of my club that have had modifications made to firearms as well as parts made by toolmakers. I can post a photo if you like. I also know of mechanics that get heads skimmed by toolmakers.

Besides if what you pare saying is true electricians and plumbers would have to do a lot of nixers in their spare time before they would make €100,000 a year.

If you aren’t much good or if you opt for a safe role with little pressure of demands on your skills and intellect then you shouldn’t be well paid.

The truth is many highly qualified people do not get well paid for their jobs despite their hard work, dedication and the level of responsibility they have.
Here is an example of an individual that has a degree in civil engineering. Despite the fact that he has quite a few years experience it seems unlikely that he can get a job that pays €40,000 per annum.

This is in sharp contrast to your statement that "A reasonably good machinist will earn €50K to €70K a year." without a shred of evidence to back this up. I accept that there are exceptions to every rule but that statement suggests that this is the normal rate of pay for a machinist that is reasonably" good (i.e. not great), seriously?

As I’ve said before people should get paid based on their value, not their qualification or how many years their arse has polished a particular chair.

In the real world people do not always get paid as well as they deserve to be. Nurses are a prime example. They are well qualified (they all degree qualified), they work very hard, under enormous pressure with massive responsibility. Don't they deserve to be well paid? Of course they do, but they are not.

2011

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

I am not disappointed at all, are you taking it personally that a tool maker is making more than you?

I don't particularly care who makes more money than me.

How about a reasoned response that comments on the veracity of the survey?

Tony Beetroot

How valid is that link? To be honest I dont care. You dont believe toolmakers make up to 100k a year that's quite evident. Do you want me to phone the tool maker I know to join boards and post up his wage slip?
You now wont believe me when I tell you I know a mechanic who is on 90k a year, google mechanics wages and you will find links or surveys to say a mechanics wage is far less.
Why is he on this wage you say, well he is **** hot at car diagnostics and not alone that he can fix the problem, we are talking about a mechanic working in a general motors not a dealership.
I know a plant manager in a quarry who is on 80k a year, again top class talented fella, he is a driver, foreman, mechanic and salesman. He named his price and got it.
Talented people can name their money and they will get it, they dont go on the google to google what their wages should be.

Ulixes

I work with guys earning between €50'000 and €100'000 a year. They are on the shop floor and they are running machines. They are not winding handles as this isn't the 1980's. They are programmers, setters, designers and yes, engineers, all rolled into one.
They are not degree qualified engineers but they are engineers none the less.

My point about bricklayer was made to show that during the boom construction trades made well over €100k a year. It was those boom wages that attracted a generation away from engineering trades and into construction trades.

I am not going to name my place of work on a public forum. If posters choose not to believe me that is their prerogative but I am happy to give more detail via PM.

Tony Beetroot

Ulixes wrote: »

I am not going to name my place of work on a public forum. If posters choose not to believe me that is their prerogative but I am happy to give more detail via PM.

Unless you can provide internet google links I dont think you will be believed.

micks

2011 wrote: »

I don't particularly care who makes more money than me.

How about a reasoned response that comments on the veracity of the survey?

I don't particularly care about this argument and I do enjoy your posts in electrical etc
But you shouldn't be dragging your self thru this

There are many companies in Ireland paying packages of approx 100k to trade qualified workers

Can i prove it? no
Just because there is no evidence in public doesnt mean it to be untrue

Lets look at it a different way

http://www.cpl.ie/Library/CPL/cpl.ie/Documents/Cpl-salary-guide-15.pdf
to go along with your link

and below Facilities in particular engineers and tech's






20% plus swings in the rates that 2 agencies reckon engineers and tech's get paid

Also all these surveys generalise and will report that rates outside Dublin
are lower
There are several examples where this is the opposite

Companies dont generally dont make public what exactly they pay

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

I work with guys earning between €50'000 and €100'000 a year. They are on the shop floor and they are running machines. They are not winding handles as this isn't the 1980's. They are programmers, setters, designers and yes, engineers, all rolled into one.
They are not degree qualified engineers but they are engineers none the less,

Are you talking about toolmakers or not?

As per last post to you I accept there are exceptions I am referring to the norm.

Ulixes

2011 wrote: »

Are you talking about toolmakers or not?

As per last post to you I accept there are exceptions I am referring to the norm.

Toolmakers are precision machinists. The guys I work with are precision machinists. They don't make press tools but it is the norm that toolmakers work as precision machinists. Moulds and press tools are made in China and imported into Ireland to be run. There is only 1 pure toolmaking company left in Ireland. Toolmaking is the nearest trade qualification we have to what the market fern world needs, as I said in one of my first posts. Is that what you are asking?

2011

Ulixes wrote: »

Toolmakers are precision machinists. The guys I work with are precision machinists.

Fair enough.

They don't make press tools but it is the norm that toolmakers work as precision machinists.

My understanding is that this is the work that was traditionally performed by toolmakers. Correct?

Moulds and press tools are made in China and imported into Ireland to be run.

Yes, this is what I have been told.
Because it is cheaper?

So essentially toolmakers in Ireland maintain / repair moulds and press tools that are made elsewhere. When I say this I am not trying to insinuate that this does not require a high level of skill and training, because I know it does.

There is only 1 pure toolmaking company left in Ireland.

Why do you think that is?

Toolmaking is the nearest trade qualification we have to what the market fern world needs, as I said in one of my first posts. Is that what you are asking?

Yes.

I was trying to asses the employment opportunities and pay or the "average toolmaker".
I accept that there may be an exceptional toolroom that pays above the norm, this does not represent the average.
Following a conversation with a toolmaker that was promoted to toolroom manager he told me that he was now earning around €50,000.
However this is not for working as a toolmaker, he is now working as a manager of toolmakers.
It took him over 10 years to get that promotion.

Nody

//MOD

This only a preemptive warning but the tone is starting to get a tad on the high side bordering on personal accusations etc. so please dial it back just a tad as I don't want to lock the thread where a good discussion is ongoing.

Cheers.

//MOD

Ulixes

2011 wrote: »

Fair enough.



My understanding is that this is the work that was traditionally performed by toolmakers. Correct?



Yes, this is what I have been told.
Because it is cheaper?

So essentially toolmakers in Ireland maintain / repair moulds and press tools that are made elsewhere. When I say this I am not trying to insinuate that this does not require a high level of skill and training, because I know it does.



Why do you think that is?



Yes.

I was trying to asses the employment opportunities and pay or the "average toolmaker".
I accept that there may be an exceptional toolroom that pays above the norm, this does not represent the average.
Following a conversation with a toolmaker that was promoted to toolroom manager he told me that he was now earning around €50,000.
However this is not for working as a toolmaker, he is now working as a manager of toolmakers.
It took him over 10 years to get that promotion.

The "usual" work that toolmakers carry out is not toolmaking. It is precision machining. Therefore the average toolmaker doesn't spend his other time making, maintaining or repairing tools.The trade has evolved, just as Engineers don't spend their time making, maintaining or repairing steam engines. Jobs evolve beyond their original descriptive title. The world of jobs demarkated clearly along the lines of titles is, thankfully, becoming a thing of the past.
I'm not sure what else you are looking for from this thread. In a union shop toolmakers don't earn €100k or anything close to it. Thankfully I've never worked in a union shop so my experience of being paid based on the skills and work ethic of the lowest common denominator is limited.

pidgeoneyes

Hi folks,

What would you think of the job prospects for this course in LIT? I'm hoping to go back as a mature student.

http://www.lit.ie/Lists/Courses/Attachments/158/Precision%20Engineering%20Brochure_Printed%20Version.pdf