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8th Amendment

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Comments

  • #1082
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    'No Voter and Proud', you should stop engaging with this silly nonsense.
    You're absolutely right, it is silly. It's crazy. No sane person would even consider forcing his wife to carry a rapist's child to term, still less then force her to bring up the child as their own.

    Would they?

    So why would they advocate having a law that forces other raped women to carry such a pregnancy just because they don't actually live with that woman?

    It's senseless and cruel.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1083
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    pmasterson95 wrote: »
    Do you condone corpse incubators? This is what your precious law causes. So step up justify it.

    While I am genuinely reading your post about "corpse incubators", the link provided clearly stated that the 8th did not apply in this situation as it was not to do with abortion.


  • #1084
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    Judge Kearns (President of the High Court) clearly stated that the case you are referring to was not about abortion at all.

    There is so much stand to stick your head in. Why was there "prolife" eejits campaining to keep the support on. Pro life anti-abortion were more than happy to campaign for it to not be turned off. But when decency won ye cant get far enough away from it.


  • #1085
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    Judge Kearns (President of the High Court) clearly stated that the case you are referring to was not about abortion at all.
    It wasn't about abortion, but it was directly caused by the 8th amendment.

    An amendment which was supposed only to prevent women having abortions has now been shown to affect pregnant women in all sorts of negative ways.

    The Eighth must go.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1086
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    SW wrote: »
    and 3 medical professionals assessed that to be the case. How was the Act abused?

    You'd have to ask the other medical professionals who expressed concern as they obviously know more about the case than I do.


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  • #1087
    frag420
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,161 ✭✭✭frag420


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    I've really tried to avoid religious debate here because I understand it annoys those who are not religious but since you have asked the question here goes:

    It's God's will, seems to offer no comfort to those who it happens to. But God will test us at different times to test our beliefs. And it is those who stay strong through adverse times that have the truest faith.

    I'm not "spouting" anything.

    The race of the child wouldnt come into it.
    Why should I picket airports, I have two jobs to do. It so happens that one is in a passive capacity which means I need to be in a specific location but not necessarily do anything but oversee.

    So why does god feel the need to test us if we have free will unless we are doing it wrong in which case her free will idea is flawed!!

    You have ended a lot of your posts with "thank god" so you have already brought the her into it. So whats the difference between god and say a dictator that gives his army free will to do whatever they want?

    You see I have debated this with several anti choice people over the years and free will seems to be the default answer when asked why does god allow rape, murder etc to happen. However when someone like Hitler, Pol Pot etc allows it to happen to their people its outrageous and goes against the thinking of the church and you would be calling on an intervention to stop it. ? If she is all powerful then why can she not just step in and say,you know what this free will thing has not worked out so I am now going to stop you all from raping, murdering etc? If she hated abortion so much she has the power to step in and stop it, but she doesn't. Is it because she aint real or because letting people starve and die of famine is more important?

    You should picket airports because its a cause you strongly believe in and it forms part of your faith. I understand you have two jobs but surely god will look after you, not let you starve if you are doing her work? Or will she let stand by and let you starve and go homeless like she has done with millions of others the world over??

    over to you...


  • #1088
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    While I am genuinely reading your post about "corpse incubators", the link provided clearly stated that the 8th did not apply in this situation as it was not to do with abortion.
    You do realize that the 8th amendment doesnt specify a ban on abortion? It specifies a right to life of the fetus. The 8th was the cause of this scandal.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1089
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    volchitsa wrote: »
    You do realize that the 8th amendment doesnt specify a ban on abortion? It specifies a right to life of the fetus. The 8th was the cause of this scandal.

    I'm not 100% in agreement with the wording of the 8th.
    However if it's removed now it will bring in abortion on demand eventually so we must make do with what we have.

    If you remember, a lot of anti abortion groups were against the 8th before it passed


  • #1090
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    I'm not 100% in agreement with the wording of the 8th.
    However if it's removed now it will bring in abortion on demand eventually so we must make do with what we have.

    If you remember, a lot of anti abortion groups were against the 8th before it passed

    But but free will....


  • #1091
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    frag420 wrote: »
    So why does god feel the need to test us if we have free will unless we are doing it wrong in which case her free will idea is flawed!!

    You have ended a lot of your posts with "thank god" so you have already brought the her into it. So whats the difference between god and say a dictator that gives his army free will to do whatever they want?

    You see I have debated this with several anti choice people over the years and free will seems to be the default answer when asked why does god allow rape, murder etc to happen. However when someone like Hitler, Pol Pot etc allows it to happen to their people its outrageous and goes against the thinking of the church and you would be calling on an intervention to stop it. ? If she is all powerful then why can she not just step in and say,you know what this free will thing has not worked out so I am now going to stop you all from raping, murdering etc? If she hated abortion so much she has the power to step in and stop it, but she doesn't. Is it because she aint real or because letting people starve and die of famine is more important?

    You should picket airports because its a cause you strongly believe in and it forms part of your faith. I understand you have two jobs but surely god will look after you, not let you starve if you are doing her work? Or will she let stand by and let you starve and go homeless like she has done with millions of others the world over??

    over to you...

    I have answered pretty much all of this already, and my own religious beliefs aside from what I have been asked earlier have nothing to do with the threa.d


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  • #1092
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    traprunner wrote: »
    But but free will....

    Can be abused


  • #1093
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Can be abused

    That is between the sinner and god.


  • #1094
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    volchitsa wrote: »
    It wasn't about abortion, but it was directly caused by the 8th amendment.

    An amendment which was supposed only to prevent women having abortions has now been shown to affect pregnant women in all sorts of negative ways.

    The Eighth must go.

    It was caused by a wrong decision by the doctors concerned, because, as Kearns makes clear:
    This is not a case where the Court on the evidence is required to consider that possibility. This case turns on its own particular facts which are centred entirely on whether the unborn child can survive at all.
    It found that the child will not be born alive, and that is the basis for the ruling.

    “The Court is further satisfied on the evidence that, in addition to the ongoing trauma and suffering experienced by the family though the continuance of somatic support, such continuing support will cause distress to the unborn child in circumstances where it has no genuine prospect of being born alive.

    Therefore, the 8th Amendment did not apply.

    A referendum to get rid of the 8th will be defeated. And rightly so.


  • #1095
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    The 8th amendment made it that the right of a baby was so important that it was A-OK to use a corpse as a host. Defend the amendment and you defend that. The baby was so important that it didnt matter the condition or status of its host once it was female it doesnt matter if its alive or dead. Healthy or decomposing. How can you defend that?


  • #1096
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    pmasterson95 wrote: »
    The 8th amendment made it that the right of a baby was so important that it was A-OK to use a corpse as a host. Defend the amendment and you defend that. The baby was so important that it didnt matter the condition or status of its host once it was female it doesnt matter if its alive or dead. Healthy or decomposing. How can you defend that?

    Per the High Court decision, the 8th Amendment did not apply.

    Now build a bridge and get over it.


  • #1097
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    It was caused by a wrong decision by the doctors concerned, because, as Kearns makes clear:



    Therefore, the 8th Amendment did not apply.

    A referendum to get rid of the 8th will be defeated. And rightly so.

    And what stopped the doctors turning off the machines immediately?


  • #1098
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    I'm not 100% in agreement with the wording of the 8th.
    However if it's removed now it will bring in abortion on demand eventually so we must make do with what we have.
    So you think there was abortion on demand in 1982, do you?

    In fact it was the 8th amendment that brought in abortion. Via the X case.
    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    If you remember, a lot of anti abortion groups were against the 8th before it passed
    Umm, yeah - that was because they warned that this sort of thing would result from it, and they were blown off by Professor Casey and the like.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1099
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    It was caused by a wrong decision by the doctors concerned, because, as Kearns makes clear:



    Therefore, the 8th Amendment did not apply.

    A referendum to get rid of the 8th will be defeated. And rightly so.

    Erm it wont. It will go. And you wont be able to force a woman to have children. Or perhaps women are only baby holders.


  • #1100
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    pmasterson95 wrote: »
    And what stopped the doctors turning off the machines immediately?
    Have you read the link?
    The 8th didnt apply


  • #1101
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    volchitsa wrote: »
    So you think there was abortion on demand in 1982, do you?

    In fact it was the 8th amendment that brought in abortion. Via the X case.


    Umm, yeah - that was because they warned that this sort of thing would result from it, and they were blown off by Professor Casey and the like.
    No there was no abortion on demand.
    But we are a different country now. More "progressive"


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  • #1102
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    traprunner wrote: »
    That is between the sinner and god.
    You'd know you were not a man of faith.


  • #1103
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    You'd know you were not a man of faith.

    I don't need faith in a deity.

    So why would anyone want to get between god and a sinner?


  • #1104
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    Have you read the link?
    The 8th didnt apply

    Well yes. I was the one who told you the body was decomposing and then you claimed it wasn't before I repeatedly asked you and you eventually realised oh wow dead bodies decompose. You forget already.


  • #1105
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    It was caused by a wrong decision by the doctors concerned, because, as Kearns makes clear:

    Therefore, the 8th Amendment did not apply.

    A referendum to get rid of the 8th will be defeated. And rightly so.
    The court found it didn't apply in this case. The lawyers for the hospital had been unable or unwilling to reach that decision without going to court, so presuably they felt it could have gone either way.

    In any case, it's not true that the 8th wasn't the cause of the problem - it was absolutely and completely the cause. Without the 8th, the doctors would have switched off the life support as soon as it because clear the woman was effectively dead and the baby was too damaged by all that had gone on trying the save the woman's life.

    The 8th doesn't allow that decision to be taken on medical grounds alone, it has to be done on legal criteria - and yet the lawyers refused to decide too.

    In no other European country would that have happened against the family's and doctors' opinions - only in Ireland, and only because of the 8th amendment.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1106
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    No there was no abortion on demand.
    But we are a different country now. More "progressive"
    So your fear is that there is now enough support in the country for legalization of abortion.

    Maybe we need a referendum then?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1107
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    volchitsa wrote: »
    The court found it didn't apply in this case. The lawyers for the hospital had been unable or unwilling to reach that decision without going to court, so presuably they felt it could have gone either way.

    In any case, it's not true that the 8th wasn't the cause of the problem - it was absolutely and completely the cause. Without the 8th, the doctors would have switched off the life support as soon as it because clear the woman was effectively dead and the baby was too damaged by all that had gone on trying the save the woman's life.

    The 8th doesn't allow that decision to be taken on medical grounds alone, it has to be done on legal criteria - and yet the lawyers refused to decide too.

    In no other European country would that have happened against the family's and doctors' opinions - only in Ireland, and only because of the 8th amendment.
    If they immediately unplugged it "Proud and Atlantis" would scream about murdering babies and evil hospital and some of that ilk probably attempt to sue the doctor/hospital. But since sanity won that ilk just deny the case had anything to do with it. Even though they picketed the hospital and were against turning them off. Since they lost they just ignore it and try to spew different crap.


  • #1108
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    You'd have to ask the other medical professionals who expressed concern as they obviously know more about the case than I do.

    And none of the concerns are that the psychiatrists were wrong, only that some information may not have been discussed. How is that an abuse of the Act?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1109
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    No Voter And Proud wrote: »
    You'd know you were not a man of faith.

    You'd know you were not a man of science when you dont understand biology.


  • #1110
    frag420
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,161 ✭✭✭frag420


    traprunner wrote: »
    That is between the sinner and god.

    Only if you believe in her!! You mentioned earlier that you believe abortion it is wrong because it against the law yet now you say its becaise its a sin. Dont you ever get greedy, envious of your neighbors? Should you be punished for feeling that is 100% natural to feel as a human??


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  • #1111
    No Voter And Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭No Voter And Proud


    The amount of anti-religious crap that is spouted here is ridiculous.


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