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Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post

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    #722
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    In theory, FPNs should allow for more enforcement of road traffic offences since Garda time isn't being spent attending court for prosecution of relatively minor offences.

    Its not just a time issue. Having discussed it with a guard, there is a perception among some gardai that if they tried bringing prosecutions for cycling offences they would be laughed out of court.

    There is a perception that some judges, barristers, more senior garda etc would treat cycling safety as a joke and as a waste of court time.


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    #723
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Its not just a time issue. Having discussed it with a guard, there is a perception among some gardai that if they tried bringing prosecutions for cycling offences they would be laughed out of court.

    There is a perception that some judges, barristers, more senior garda etc would treat cycling safety as a joke and as a waste of court time.

    Talking previously to 'de brudder' who's a sergeant, he said if any of his Guards did a cyclist, he'd b0ll0ck them for wasting their time.

    Saying that, there's plenty of examples where 'rogue' cyclists have been plonked before a cranky district judge and paid heavily for their behaviour!

    Personally, I don't think these powers will be used routinely - but will be used as part of campaigns - for example in the autumn when the RSA's hi-viz tree blooms, and the Guards start looking at lights on bikes. I can see a few FPNs being issued then.


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    #724
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,621 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm cautiously in favor of this measure as long is it's implemented fairly.


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    #725
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,598 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    ronoc wrote: »
    I'm cautiously in favor of this measure as long is it's implemented fairly.
    If you've broken the law you face the consequences - what can be unfair about that? Obviously many will continue to get away with stuff, as also happens with motorists. So long as there is nothing discriminatory in the way the rules are applied I really cannot see how their application could be considered "unfair"


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    #726
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,552 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Beasty wrote: »
    So long as there is nothing discriminatory in the way the rules are applied I really cannot see how their application could be considered "unfair"
    i assume that's what most people would refer to as 'unfair' though - in the 'go out and catch us some cyclists to show the law is being used' way, to boost numbers.


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    #727
    shansey
    Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭shansey


    Got stopped by a Garda at Harolds cross years ago for skipping a light. took details and got summons.

    Never broke it again!!


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    #728
    Kavrocks
    Registered Users Posts: 2,345 ✭✭✭Kavrocks


    micar wrote: »
    You would think this would work.

    I have same issue each morning around 6.50 going up lower lesson at at junction of hatch street lower. I rarely trigger the lights on the bike and I cycle up the middle of the road. Unfortunately as there aren't buses around, I do once it's safe go through the red light.
    I've only ever encountered 1 set of traffic lights it hasn't worked at but those wouldn't even change unless there was more than 1 car waiting.


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    #729
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Beasty wrote: »
    If you've broken the law you face the consequences - what can be unfair about that? Obviously many will continue to get away with stuff, as also happens with motorists. So long as there is nothing discriminatory in the way the rules are applied I really cannot see how their application could be considered "unfair"

    A lot of the offences are fairly straightforward - either you ran the light or you didn't; you're on the pavement or you're not etc.

    The cycling 'without reasonable consideration' is potentially arbitrary, but I imagine the Guards would use that as a 'catch all' to punish serious twattery not catered for in the rest of the legislation.

    Wasn't there also supposed to be an offence of 'dangerous overtaking' - mostly aimed at stopping cyclists from filtering through traffic in a manner likely to present a danger to themselves and other road users?


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    #730
    Darkglasses
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,526 Mod ✭✭✭✭Darkglasses


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Talking previously to 'de brudder' who's a sergeant, he said if any of his Guards did a cyclist, he'd b0ll0ck them for wasting their time.

    Seriously? Maybe I'm naive, but isn't that the kind of thing Guards are supposed to be doing when they're on traffic duty in the middle of the day?


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    #731
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Darkglasses wrote: »
    Seriously? Maybe I'm naive, but isn't that the kind of thing Guards are supposed to be doing when they're on traffic duty in the middle of the day?

    No, because, let's face it, despite the reams of anecdotes, RLJing and cycling on the footpad is bloody annoying as anything to see - but in reality doesn't present a risk to anyone.

    EDIT: It's like dog fouling - it would be nice if the Guards could carry out summary executions in respect of it, but really in terms of public safety it's not a significant issue.

    Personally, if a Guard has a spare hour during the day I'd prefer if he got his arse down to the quays and started pinging truck, bus and HGV drivers for using their phones while driving.


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    #732
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,552 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Darkglasses wrote: »
    Seriously? Maybe I'm naive, but isn't that the kind of thing Guards are supposed to be doing when they're on traffic duty in the middle of the day?
    the gardai are allowed use their discretion on whether to prosecute minor offences, so this probably is just a direction to use their discretion.
    if a garda spent his entire day doing jaywalkers, his superiors might have reason to believe his time could be better spent on other matters.


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    #733
    Darkglasses
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,526 Mod ✭✭✭✭Darkglasses


    Jawgap wrote: »
    No, because, let's face it, despite the reams of anecdotes, RLJing and cycling on the footpad is bloody annoying as anything to see - but in reality doesn't present a risk to anyone.

    EDIT: It's like dog fouling - it would be nice if the Guards could carry out summary executions in respect of it, but really in terms of public safety it's not a significant issue.

    Personally, if a Guard has a spare hour during the day I'd prefer if he got his arse down to the quays and started pinging truck, bus and HGV drivers for using their phones while driving.

    And so without meaning to be facetious, what do traffic corps gardai spend their time on when they are out on the street?


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    #734
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Darkglasses wrote: »
    And so without meaning to be facetious, what do traffic corps gardai spend their time on when they are out on the street?

    Road Traffic enforcement I'd imagine.

    Based on their twitter feed they do a lot of speed and mandatory alcohol checks, presumably in addition to investigating collisions resulting in injury.

    Again, if you have a Traffic Corps car at a loose end - which would be the better use of it's time - running speed checks near school (or on some of the minor roads where people never expect to see them) or nabbing inconsiderate cyclists?


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    #735
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Darkglasses wrote: »
    And so without meaning to be facetious, what do traffic corps gardai spend their time on when they are out on the street?

    According to their 2014 Report the dealt with or investigated ......

    Driving while intoxicated incidents: 7,962

    MAT Checkpoints: 78,290
    Total breath tests at MAT checkpoints: 441,380

    Road Transport incidents: 5,170
    Dangerous Driving: 3,438
    Section 41 Detention of Vehicles: 20,244

    Fixed Charge Notices
    Speeding: 207,919
    Seatbelts: 12,024
    Mobile Phones: 28,938


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    #736
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the gardai are allowed use their discretion on whether to prosecute minor offences, so this probably is just a direction to use their discretion.
    if a garda spent his entire day doing jaywalkers, his superiors might have reason to believe his time could be better spent on other matters.

    Jaywalking is not an offense in ireland though is it?


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    #737
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    tunney wrote: »
    Jaywalking is not an offense in ireland though is it?

    Depends - I think it's an offence to cross the road within a certain distance of a pedestrian crossing - essentially you're being prosecuted for being lazy:D

    Plus, I don't think the Guards can give you an FPN for it - it's a summons and the District Court.


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    #738
    Eamonnator
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    Darkglasses wrote: »
    And so without meaning to be facetious, what do traffic corps gardai spend their time on when they are out on the street?

    In the Garda division, where I live, there are two Traffic Corps. One unit has a notional strength of 2 sergeants and 12 gardai. It actually has a strength of 1 sgt. and 6 gardai. The other unit has the same notional strength and actually has a strength of 1sgt. and 4 gardai.
    I think, this is pretty much replicated throughout the country.
    So, to answer your question, quite a lot of the members of traffic units have been promoted or transferred out of the Corps and have not been replaced.


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    #739
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,621 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Beasty wrote: »
    If you've broken the law you face the consequences - what can be unfair about that? Obviously many will continue to get away with stuff, as also happens with motorists. So long as there is nothing discriminatory in the way the rules are applied I really cannot see how their application could be considered "unfair"

    As long as it isn't a stick to beat cyclists with.

    With some exceptions, the vast majority of cycling offenses are in the "jaywalking" category of seriousness.


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    #740
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,552 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Depends - I think it's an offence to cross the road within a certain distance of a pedestrian crossing - essentially you're being prosecuted for being lazy:D

    Plus, I don't think the Guards can give you an FPN for it - it's a summons and the District Court.
    in germany (well, in nordrhein-westfalen), jaywalking has a fixed penalty of €5. the cops carry around credit card machines so you pay on the spot.


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    #741
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,323 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    Cian Ginty got his hands on the draft list of offences
    The draft list also includes cycling more than two abreast, not cycling in single file when overtaking traffic, having no brakes on your bicycle

    Curious one this or maybe I'm reading it wrong.
    Does it make me responsible for my fellow cyclists, i.e. I'm overtaking in single file but another cyclist comes up on my outside (or inside) are we both now committing an offence?


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    #742
    Sheldons Brain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭Sheldons Brain


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    It's €80 for a motorised vehicle.

    Part of the logic for FPN is to make the consequences more proportionate to motorised vehicles, and you want to go the other way?

    I would favour a much higher fine for motorists too, some of these fines were set in the past.

    But motorists will also accumulate points, which may be a more effective punishment, it isn't clear that any number of offences will put a cyclist off the road.
    No, because, let's face it, despite the reams of anecdotes, RLJing and cycling on the footpad is bloody annoying as anything to see - but in reality doesn't present a risk to anyone.

    It presents a risk to cyclist of being killed and for pedestrians of being injured. Nobody is suggesting that Gardai divert from detective duties for this, but if they are present they should enforce the law. If this happens and if the penalities are realistic, and not a nonsense €50, then there will be many fewer offences and it will be more realistic to then focus on the remaining lawbreakers.


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    #743
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Sheldons Brain wrote: »
    It presents a risk to cyclist of being killed and for pedestrians of being injured.
    Is this a theoretical risk or a practical risk? Is there any case in Ireland in living memory of a cyclist being killed as a result of RLJ-ing?

    Are there many cases of pedestrians being injured?


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    #744
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    Curious one this or maybe I'm reading it wrong.
    Does it make me responsible for my fellow cyclists, i.e. I'm overtaking in single file but another cyclist comes up on my outside (or inside) are we both now committing an offence?

    My reading of it would be that he's committing the offence, not you.


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    #745
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Sheldons Brain wrote: »
    It presents a risk to cyclist of being killed and for pedestrians of being injured. Nobody is suggesting that Gardai divert from detective duties for this, but if they are present they should enforce the law. If this happens and if the penalities are realistic, and not a nonsense €50, then there will be many fewer offences and it will be more realistic to then focus on the remaining lawbreakers.

    I wouldn't call 50 euro nonsense, I would struggle to pay it but I don't break the rules so I am not overly worried.

    There is more than one reason for the penalty being a "nonsense" 50euro. Compliance being the main one, if the fine is too high, at a certain point so many people will decide its worth going through the courts is worth the chance it will be struck out.

    This makes it a stupid level as it will defeat the purpose of the FPN in the first place and enforcement will fall. Whereas 50euro is of a level that most people will pay it rather than take a day to go to court over it.

    The way you post you think no one put any thought into it whatsoever.


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    #746
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    Is there any point in anyone replying to Sheldons Brain's posts? All s/he does is troll on here.


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    #747
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    schemingbohemia wrote: »
    Is there any point in anyone replying to Sheldons Brain's posts? All s/he does is troll on here.

    MOD VOICE: If there is an issue with a post, report it, back seat modding is not tolerated


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    #748
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,375 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Beasty wrote: »
    If you've broken the law you face the consequences - what can be unfair about that?
    The laws are made to stop certain actions, many benign actions will also fall under the legal description, even though the law makers may have had no real intention of preventing that action.

    So if a woman illegally runs across an empty road at a pedestrian crossing to escape a mugger and the garda takes the easy option and prosecutes her I would think its unfair. It is not what the law actually set out to prevent happening.

    The headline said
    Cyclists face on-the-spot fines of at least €50 for breaking red lights and other dangerous habits under new rules.
    Breaking a red light on foot, on a bike or in a car is not necessarily dangerous, and most gardai are sensible about enforcing the law and do it fairly.
    tunney wrote: »
    Jaywalking is not an offense in ireland though is it?
    I posted the law a while ago today. In the most threads where I mention jaywalking someone posts questioning if its a law. This just shows how unenforced it is, and shows the general ignorance pedestrians have of the law. In after hours there is a call for a theory test for cyclists, I likened this to having theory tests for burglars. 99.9% of cyclists and burglars are fully aware they are breaking the law -but many pedestrians have no idea.


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    #749
    JamJamJamJam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭JamJamJamJam


    So high vis doesn't look like it will be mandatory? Lights after dark is fair enough in my opinion.

    Regarding cycling "without reasonable consideration", when cars are stopped at lights, is it generally considered okay to cycle past them to the front of the queue? If so, is that only on the left hand side (even though you never overtake on the left in a car), or on the right hand side (even though you probably normally cycle towards the left hand side of the lane, so you'd be doing a bit more weaving)?


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    #750
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    JamJamJamJam wrote: »
    So high vis doesn't look like it will be mandatory?

    It never was. The FPNs are only for a number of existing offences.


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    #751
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Sheldons Brain wrote: »
    some of these fines were set in the past

    Only some? How many were set in the future?


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