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Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

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Comments

  • #872
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Patrick Wheelock wrote: »
    I'd prefer to think of it as a moral obligation. Legal enforcement is impossible.

    A certain degree of prevention (restriction of abortion in Ireland) is the best that can be achieved.

    Again morally obliged - you can't force them.
    It's similar to the violinist scenario if the violinist is your brother or sister.
    So why should abortion, which is a comparable scenario, involve legal, not just moral, obligation?

    Not sure what you mean about the degree of prevention. Either it mattersthat we prevent fetuses being killed or it doesn't. If it does, then reserving that option for the well-off, the ones who can in reality afford to look after the resulting child, is more than odd, it's completely contradictory. in fact I'd say it makes a nonsense of the claim that the ban on abortion has anything to do with protecting the unborn.

    It actually makes it look like it's about using the fetus' continued existence to punish women who are unable to access expensive abortion services - by making them become mothers against their will. Not very respectful of the fetus, surely?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #873
    James DD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭James DD


    Kev W wrote: »
    You're leaving yourself wide open with that one.
    omg you sound so immature


  • #874
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    James DD wrote: »
    omg you sound so immature

    I genuinely can't tell if you're being ironic. :)


  • #875
    James DD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭James DD


    Kev W wrote: »
    I genuinely can't tell if you're being ironic. :)
    can see why


  • #876
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,172 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Kev W wrote: »
    You're leaving yourself wide open with that one.

    Hmm...I wonder what else has no brain activity and is on life support...


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  • #877
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Hmm...I wonder what else has no brain activity and is on life support...

    The pro-choice side are really clutching at straws.

    Trying to compare a person who is essentially dead to a growing and developing baby it's idiotic, though it is fiting with the various ridiculous scenarios being presented to try to justify killing babies in the womb.


  • #878
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Medallion of Kunt wrote: »
    I think it's good that people speak up for the rights of the foetus, the foetus has no voice to defend itself. it couldn't be more vulnerable.

    I wonder how you would feel if it had no brain activity...
    Medallion of Kunt wrote: »
    If there is no chance and they are clinically braindead then I would say it's best to turn off the machine.

    Oh.

    So, do you know when the fetus starts showing brain activity?

    Do you think abortions should be allowed when there is no brain activity?


  • #879
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    The pro-choice side are really clutching at straws.

    Trying to compare a person who is essentially dead to a growing and developing baby it's idiotic, though it is fiting with the various ridiculous scenarios being presented to try to justify killing babies in the womb.

    There's no such thing as a baby in a womb. You're thinking of a fetus.


  • #880
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    The pro-choice side are really clutching at straws.

    Trying to compare a person who is essentially dead to a growing and developing baby it's idiotic, though it is fiting with the various ridiculous scenarios being presented to try to justify killing babies in the womb.


    1. No babies are in the womb.
    2. It's the same scenario as pregnancy. A life may be taken if the foetus is removed from it's life support (mother) and a life would be taken if the life support is turned off. So it's not clutching at straws at all.


  • #881
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Kev W wrote: »
    There's no such thing as a baby in a womb. You're thinking of a fetus.

    One thing I've learned from this thread is that Barbara Purple Simulation is definitely not a MEDICAL doctor and possibly doesn't know how to use Google.

    Let's be honest here. The anti-choice (calling themselves "pro life" is laughable) side's main tactic here is to use emotive language such as "killing babies" or "murder" to deceive people who are naive and impressionable.


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  • #882
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    orubiru wrote: »
    One thing I've learned from this thread is that Barbara Purple Simulation is definitely not a doctor and possibly doesn't know how to use Google.

    Let's be honest here. The anti-choice (calling themselves "pro life" is laughable) side's main tactic here is to use emotive language such as "killing babies" or "murder" to deceive people who are naive and impressionable.

    100%


  • #883
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    orubiru wrote: »
    One thing I've learned from this thread is that Barbara Purple Simulation is definitely not a doctor and possibly doesn't know how to use Google.

    Let's be honest here. The anti-choice (calling themselves "pro life" is laughable) side's main tactic here is to use emotive language such as "killing babies" or "murder" to deceive people who are naive and impressionable.

    Well I actually am a doctor, a real doctor not a medical one.

    It's just using a medical term but for any sensible person it's a baby in the womb, did you ever hear a pregnant woman say "I feel the fetus Kick" etc etc. I know why it's so latched onto as its so much easier for people to talk about a fetus when it comes to killing one rather than use the term baby.


  • #884
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    Well I actually am a doctor, a real doctor not a medical one.

    Pardon?


  • #885
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kev W wrote: »
    Pardon?

    Medical doctors don't have a PhD so they aren't really doctors.

    I'm not saying I know what they know though just answering the poster in question.


  • #886
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    Medical doctors don't have PhDs so they aren't really doctors.

    Out of curiosity, what field is your PhD in?


  • #887
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kev W wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what field is your PhD in?

    It's irrelevant to this discussion.

    I clarified in an edit that I'm not saying I know anything more than anyone else about medicine I was just pointing out that the accusation was wrong and I am in fact a doctor.


  • #888
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    It's irrelevant to this discussion.

    I suspected as much.


  • #889
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    It's just using a medical term but for any sensible person it's a baby in the womb, did you ever hear a pregnant woman say "I feel the fetus Kick" etc etc.

    You're describing an emotive reaction, which has little to do with being "sensible".


  • #890
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kev W wrote: »
    I suspected as much.

    What's that supposed to mean?


  • #891
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,926 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Kev W wrote: »
    I suspected as much.
    In fairness, I don't think he ever referenced his PhD as a way to lend weight to his opinions.

    Did he?


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  • #892
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    What's that supposed to mean?

    That I suspected as much.


  • #893
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    Well I actually am a doctor, a real doctor not a medical one.

    You don't say?

    So how come it's all fine to call me out for saying you are not a doctor when we both know that I meant medical doctor but you are happy to play fast and loose with words like "fetus", "baby" and "killing" etc?


  • #894
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kev W wrote: »
    That I suspected as much.

    And what are you suspecting?


  • #895
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »
    And what are you suspecting?

    That your PhD wasn't in a relevant field. I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from, frankly.


  • #896
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Secondly, why only the fetus? What about the embryo? Does it have as many rights as the fetus of fewer? And why not the sperm and the egg? Since the fetus gains its rights based on the child it is going to become, why should the fetus have more rights than the sperm it came from?

    You were slamdunked on these arguments earlier in the thread. Why are you repeating this nonsense. Comparing a baby in the womb at between 13 weeks to 24 weeks, to sperm? Wow.
    Kev W wrote: »
    There's no such thing as a baby in a womb. You're thinking of a fetus.
    Kev W wrote: »
    You're describing an emotive reaction, which has little to do with being "sensible".

    Emotive reaction?? LOL.

    So folks, when a woman is having an ultrasound, the nurse should say: "There's your fetus's arms, legs and would you like to know the sex of your fetus?" :D
    orubiru wrote: »
    The anti-choice (calling themselves "pro life" is laughable) side's main tactic here is to use emotive language such as "killing babies" or "murder" to deceive people who are naive and impressionable.

    And the anti-life side is to use words like fetus and termination so they don't have to deal with the fact that a life such as the following one is being taken:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kewSyjJixr0


  • #897
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    NachoBusiness wrote: »
    the anti-life side

    Idiocy. You're anti-choice. Nobody is anti-life.


  • #898
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    Kev W wrote: »
    Nobody is anti-life.

    I was mirroring the following:
    orubiru wrote: »
    The anti-choice side's main tactic here is to use emotive language such as "killing babies" or "murder" ...

    ..hence why I said it after quoting it. Do keep up.

    And I am hardly "Anti choice" given that I would support legalizing first trimester abortions and all therapeutic abortions.


  • #899
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    NachoBusiness wrote: »
    I was mirroring the following:



    ..hence why I said it after quoting it. Do keep up.

    And I am hardly "Anti choice" given that I would support legalizing first trimester abortions and all therapeutic abortions.

    I'm all caught up, believe me.

    You're not "pro-life" because the life of the mother is meaningless to you except in her purpose as an incubator.

    You're anti-choice because you don't want women to have the right to choose what happens to their bodies.

    Just because you don't like how it sounds doesn't make it less of an appropriate descriptor for your position.

    And throwing around ridiculous crap like "anti-life" just makes you look petulant. It's the "I'm rubber, you're glue" defence and it's pathetic.


  • #900
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    NachoBusiness wrote: »
    You were slamdunked on these arguments earlier in the thread.
    You mistake your wishes for reality. You simply ignored the questions you had no answer to, and are now trying to claim that as "victory". Well, whatever.
    NachoBusiness wrote: »
    Comparing a baby in the womb at between 13 weeks to 24 weeks, to sperm? Wow.

    I'm not "comparing" it, I'm saying that you are drawing an arbitrary line and ignoring the fact that it is arbitrary, ie that someone else could validly draw that line elsewhere.

    A 13 week fetus is not a a baby. We've already established that. It's a fetus. A 13 week baby is something rather different. With your penchant for youtube links, couldnt you even look up what a 13 week old baby looks like??

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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  • #901
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    Kev W wrote: »
    You're not "pro-life" because the life of the mother is meaningless to you except in her purpose as an incubator.

    If it was "meaningless" to me, why would I support all therapeutic abortions. You're not making very much sense.
    You're anti-choice because you don't want women to have the right to choose what happens to their bodies.

    I have no problem with what any woman does with her body. It's the body that is growing in her womb which I feel women should not have the automatic right to kill and in Ireland, they don't.
    Just because you don't like how it sounds doesn't make it less of an appropriate descriptor for your position.

    It's not the sound I have an issue with. It's the inaccuracy of it.
    And throwing around ridiculous crap like "anti-life" just makes you look petulant. It's the "I'm rubber, you're glue" defence and it's pathetic.

    Precisely, now you're getting it. It was meant to sound petulant as it was said in response to the childish "anti choice" remark. An "I'm rubber, you're glue" reply was entirely apt. Tell me, if you're really all about choices, who gives the baby a choice? Why should it be legal beyond a life and death choice, to snuff their little life out? Aborting a baby like the one in the video I posted above is murder as far as I am concerned and any woman, man, mother or abortionist in the UK that is party to a baby at that stage of development getting aborted (for reasons other than than to proceed with the pregnancy would mean serious risk or death or injury to the mother) deserves to be keeping Sarah Catt company at her Majesty's pleasure.


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