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8th Amendment

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Comments

  • #662
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    am946745 wrote: »
    I don't know what gay marriage has to do with abortion, but it comes up again and again.. One was about equality and love.. Abortion is about inequality/Death and the absence of love for the child.

    I didn't bring gay marriage into the debate, but I suppose both propositions have the save foster parents. Labour and the left.

    What child?


  • #663
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    am946745 wrote: »
    Abortion is about inequality/Death and the absence of love for the child.
    Abortion is about the choice of a woman not to be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against her will.

    It's that simple for me. If you believe that a woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against her will, you are saying that she should be denied the right to bodily integrity. You can have whatever reason you like for that belief, but that doesn't change the belief.


  • #664
    Pocoyo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭Pocoyo


    Hundreds of thousands of people owe their lives to the 8th amendment,In real terms its one of the most valuable laws of any state.


  • #665
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    Pocoyo wrote: »
    Hundreds of thousands of people owe their lives to the 8th amendment,In real terms its one of the most valuable laws of any state.

    Please quote a source when making outlandish statements.


  • #666
    Pocoyo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭Pocoyo


    traprunner wrote: »
    Please quote a source when making outlandish statements.

    A society accepting of abortion that provides easy access to the industry would of resulted in a higher number of abortions,Denial of this fact is not only delusional but farcical.


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  • #667
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    Pocoyo wrote: »
    A society accepting of abortion that provides easy access to the industry would of resulted in a higher number of abortions,Denial of this fact is not only delusional but farcical.

    Nope. Statements like yours are delusional and farcical. €20 flights to the UK does not stop Irish women getting abortions. Believing it does is delusional and farcical.


  • #668
    Pocoyo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭Pocoyo


    traprunner wrote: »
    Nope. Statements like yours are delusional and farcical. €20 flights to the UK does not stop Irish women getting abortions. Believing it does is delusional and farcical.

    Firstly cheap flights are a recent occurrence and the procedure is not cheap and it was even more costly a number of years ago. Also you fail to understand the social gravity of a political endorsement of the abortion industry.


  • #669
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    Pocoyo wrote: »
    Firstly cheap flights are a recent occurrence and the procedure is not cheap and it was even more costly a number of years ago. Also you fail to understand the social gravity of a political endorsement of the abortion industry.

    You fail to understand that if a woman wants to get an abortion it is possible. Also travel to the UK was always relatively cheap. The boat used to be the route of choice because of price and not its the air. So any source for your crazy statement?


  • #670
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,176 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Hi Pocoyo, I'm a British-born person. As you can see my mother wanted to continue with her pregnancy.

    I take it you haven't heard of Women On Web either?


  • #671
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Pocoyo wrote: »
    Hundreds of thousands of people owe their lives to the 8th amendment,In real terms its one of the most valuable laws of any state.

    That would also mean that hundreds of thousands of women were forced to carry pregnancies to term against their wishes. All the more reason to repeal the 8th.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #672
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,176 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    SW wrote: »
    That would also mean that hundreds of thousands of women were forced to carry pregnancies to term against their wishes. All the more reason to repeal the 8th.

    And among them, hundreds if not thousands of rape victims, hundreds if not thousands of women carrying a foetus with fatal abnormalities and hundreds of women who have been crippled by complications in pregnancy.


  • #673
    traprunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭traprunner


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    And among them, hundreds if not thousands of rape victims, hundreds if not thousands of women carrying a foetus with fatal abnormalities and hundreds of women who have been crippled by complications in pregnancy.

    i wonder why the adoption industry isn't thriving as should be the case since so many were forced to go through with their pregnancies. Oh, it's not...maybe those hundreds of thousands actually got the boat or plane!


  • #674
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Pocoyo wrote: »
    A society accepting of abortion that provides easy access to the industry would of resulted in a higher number of abortions,Denial of this fact is not only delusional but farcical.

    Amen myfriend.

    This inconvenient truth is hard for the abortion lobby to swallow.


  • #675
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    SW wrote: »
    That would also mean that hundreds of thousands of women were forced to carry pregnancies to term against their wishes. All the more reason to repeal the 8th.

    With pregnancy comes the responsibility to do no intentional harm to the unborn child. Go look up the X Case legislation.


  • #676
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    With pregnancy comes the responsibility to do no intentional harm to the unborn child. Go look up the X Case legislation.

    Actually the 'X case legislation' makes no reference to doing no intentional harm to the unborn. In fact the legislation merrily reflects the right to life of the unborn in the 8th amendment. There is no reference to not harming the unborn. The only right is to life, and not to health. Hence we don't see prosecutions of pregnant women who do harm to their foetus due to drugs/alcohol/attempting suicide etc. maybe you should have a read of the legislation yourself?


  • #677
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    Actually the 'X case legislation' makes no reference to doing no intentional harm to the unborn. In fact the legislation merrily reflects the right to life of the unborn in the 8th amendment. There is no reference to not harming the unborn. The only right is to life, and not to health. Hence we don't see prosecutions of pregnant women who do harm to their foetus due to drugs/alcohol/attempting suicide etc. maybe you should have a read of the legislation yourself?

    X legislation refers directly to the intentional taking unborn life being a crime.


  • #678
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Pocoyo wrote: »
    A society accepting of abortion that provides easy access to the industry would of resulted in a higher number of abortions,Denial of this fact is not only delusional but farcical.

    Interestingly, the facts don't back up your assertion, in fact, it would seem the opposite is true. Where safe, legal and accessible abortion is available it would appear that the numbers accessing these services actually are less than in areas where abortion is illegal. Add to that the advantages of reduced mortality and morbidity for women having abortions, earlier gestation at the time of abortion in areas where abortion is legal, and no reduction in birth rate (as seen in the U.S.) surely it is a 'win win'.

    "• A woman’s likelihood of having an abortion is slightly elevated if she lives in a developing region. In 2008, there were 29 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years in developing countries, compared with 24 in the developed world. [1]"


    The point of course being that the vast majority of developed countries have legal abortion, versus in the vast majority of developing countries, abortion is illegal.
    (If Eastern Europe is taken out of the equation, it becomes 17 per 1000 for the developed world)


    "REGIONAL INCIDENCE AND TRENDS
    • The overall abortion rate in Africa, where the vast majority of abortions are illegal and unsafe, showed no decline between 2003 and 2008, holding at 29 abortions per 1,000 women of childbearing age. [1]"


  • #679
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    X legislation refers directly to the intentional taking unborn life being a crime.

    Indeed. As I have said. There's no mention of harming a foetus though, is there?


  • #680
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    Indeed. As I have said. There's no mention of harming a foetus though, is there?

    I'll take 'intentional taking' over 'harming' any day of the week. :)


  • #681
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    I'll take 'intentional taking' over 'harming' any day of the week. :)

    Fair enough. But remember that cases such as Miss Y and her very premature baby (who it seems, unsurprisingly, is doing very poorly) are a direct result of the 8th amendment. No relevance at all is given to the health, long or short term, of mother or baby. The only thing that matters it seems is that they are alive at the time of birth. Now that might sit easy with you, but having been in NICUs and seen these very premature infants, as well as seeming babies wil FFAs born, it certainly doesn't sit well with me. Nothing is black and white here. We all need to appreciate the grey areas.


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  • #682
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,315 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Pocoyo wrote: »
    A society accepting of abortion that provides easy access to the industry would of resulted in a higher number of abortions,Denial of this fact is not only delusional but farcical.

    But that isn't the reality when countries introduce abortion, the rate usually decreases over time.

    People tend to naturally look at the UK but they are very much an outlier, plus this is one area we don't share the same culture on.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #683
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    No relevance at all is given to the health, long or short term, of mother or baby. The only thing that matters it seems is that they are alive at the time of birth.
    I think you can be done for murder/manslaughter if you harm a foetus and it dies after birth. Same for injuring it.


  • #684
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    I think you can be done for murder/manslaughter if you harm a foetus and it dies after birth. Same for injuring it.

    Examples please?

    Only we've over all this before here, and while there is legislation alright, harm done to the fetus inside the womb is never straightforward murder or even manslaughter. For one thing, if the fetus has to survive until birth, then the crime is against a person with an identity etc, not against the fetus per se. Second, when the crime can only be committed by a third party and not by the pregnant woman, it's a form of assault against her property, rather than against the fetus. And while in some part of the US (the Bible Belt) there have been cases of pregnant women being jailed for harming their fetus, a recent case in the UK failed completely. So I think we can be sure that it's going to remain limited to the ultra-religious parts of world- which happily Ireland seems to moving out of, not toward.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #685
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    I think you can be done for murder/manslaughter if you harm a foetus and it dies after birth. Same for injuring it.

    I'd be interested to know what section of law charges would be brought under, and I'm not aware of any such case in this country. There have been one or two cases where courts have been asked to force a pregnant woman to undergo some form of treatment against her will, but the issues were resolved without having to rely on court orders in both of theses I'm thinking of - the fairly recent case involving cesarean section in Waterford and a less recent case involving a HIV positive mother.
    A civil case could be taken by the born child, but that of course is outside of criminal law.
    In any event, we seem to give every attention to 'the right to life' of mother and child, but seem to be completely able to disregard the quality of life of both. In any other scenario that I can think of, we are allowed to, and do consider quality of life when making decisions, and will very often choose to give priority to quality over quantity. Why are pregnant women and the unborn not afforded this right?

    Edit: just to note, I'm not a legal professional, medical law is just an area of interest for me, so if you are aware of any such cases, I would genuinely like to hear them.


  • #686
    130Kph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 625 ✭✭✭130Kph


    K-9 wrote: »
    But that isn't the reality when countries introduce abortion, the rate usually decreases over time.

    People tend to naturally look at the UK but they are very much an outlier, plus this is one area we don't share the same culture on.

    Totally agree that the abortion rate does decrease when legalised. Its a universally verifiable fact in all instances, to the annoyance to 'soft' anti-choicers.

    ?We don't share the same culture as the UK, as in - the national 1983 mostly deceased voters and vague 'no consequence to me' telephone polls (no matter what outrageous answer I give)???

    I know you're giving a shorthand description here, but when it comes to the individual, I most certainly DO share the UK abortion culture (and more so the Canada culture i.e. no abortion laws whatso ever) and reject with utter contempt the official Irish gombeen abortion culture. Ireland is the outlier from a 21st Century body-integrity-rights position.


  • #687
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    Fair enough. But remember that cases such as Miss Y and her very premature baby (who it seems, unsurprisingly, is doing very poorly) are a direct result of the 8th amendment. No relevance at all is given to the health, long or short term, of mother or baby. The only thing that matters it seems is that they are alive at the time of birth. Now that might sit easy with you, but having been in NICUs and seen these very premature infants, as well as seeming babies wil FFAs born, it certainly doesn't sit well with me. Nothing is black and white here. We all need to appreciate the grey areas.

    The Y case was caused by Hope's mother wanting him dead, but the 8th saved his life.


  • #688
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    The Y case was caused by Hope's mother wanting him dead, but the 8th saved his life.
    Keep talking. The more you keep peddling your "women should shut up and accept their role as passive incubators" arrogance, the more you're making the pro-choice argument for us.


  • #689
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Keep talking. The more you keep peddling your "women should shut up and accept their role as passive incubators" arrogance, the more you're making the pro-choice argument for us.

    I call it as it was.

    Baby Hope is alive, despite of his mother, thanks to the 8th.


  • #690
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,176 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The only way you could be more callous towards Ms. Y - who let's not forget claimed asylum here AFTER SHE WAS GODDAMN RAPED - would be by using racial slurs to refer to her.


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  • #691
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    The only way you could be more callous towards Ms. Y - who let's not forget claimed asylum here AFTER SHE WAS GODDAMN RAPED - would be by using racial slurs to refer to her.

    Are you suggesting there's evidence of certain racial groups seek to kill unborn babies more than others?

    What was the sentence handed down to the rapist, by the way?


This discussion has been closed.
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