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Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

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Comments

  • #512
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Taking what I said out of context? Pro-choice campaigners seem to be good at that

    How is it out of context? You said China required the father's consent for a termination, I've no idea if that's true, but since I do know for sure that women are forced to have abortions if they have two children already (in some cases more depending) I don't think they are a society whose notion of personal rights is one that anyone who cares about human rights should be advocating. (I presume you believe your own stance on abortion is one that doesn't involve major human rights abuses?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #513
    stinkle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭stinkle


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    The man and the woman together
    And if the man is a rapist? Or isn't around anymore to ask? Would you be ok with your girlfriend making decisions about your body without your agreement?


  • #514
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    volchitsa wrote: »
    How is it out of context? You said China required the father's consent for a termination, I've no idea if that's true, but since I do know for sure that women are forced to have abortions if they have two children already (in some cases more depending) I don't think they are a society whose notion of personal rights is one that anyone who cares about human rights should be advocating. (I presume you believe your own stance on abortion is one that doesn't involve major human rights abuses?

    But you are taking it out of context if you know I was specifically referring to one aspect, in which I was unsure if that was even the case. It could have been any country


  • #515
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    No why would she? You again taking my point out of context and trying to present it as me saying a man should be able to do what he wants?

    No I'm not saying that, I'm asking how you would enforce this right you say men should have to choose whether or not their partners have an abortion in the case where the woman wants to keep the baby and the man wants her to abort?

    What do you think should happen in that case? Should she have to have an abortion? How would that be done?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #516
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    stinkle wrote: »
    And if the man is a rapist? Or isn't around anymore to ask? Would you be ok with your girlfriend making decisions about your body without your agreement?

    The line's get blurred if it's rape and I'm on the fence with that. Funny how pro-choicer's always have to resort to the exception to further their case. If he wasn't around to ask she should have to keep it as I'm against abortion in the majority of cases, with exceptions of course. Well if there was something in my body that was half hers, I'd give her exactly the same input


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  • #517
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    But you are taking it out of context if you know I was specifically referring to one aspect, in which I was unsure if that was even the case. It could have been any country

    I don't understand what your issue is with my post. If it isn't China, then where is it?
    Because it does matter where it is : if it's a country that respects people's rights then it might be worth discussing, but if it's a country which regularly inflicts appalling human rights abuses on its citizens, then you should be aware of the company you are keeping with your suggestions. As does China.

    That isn't taking it out of context, that is the context.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #518
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    The line's get blurred if it's rape and I'm on the fence with that. Funny how pro-choicer's always have to resort to the exception to further their case. If he wasn't around to ask she should have to keep it as I'm against abortion in the majority of cases, with exceptions of course. Well if there was something in my body that was half hers, I'd give her exactly the same input

    Which exceptions mean it's ok to kill the unborn? And why are the circumstances of conception relevant if abortion is a joint decision? How should a man be able to.decide on whether a woman has an abortion?


  • #519
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    volchitsa wrote: »
    No I'm not saying that, I'm asking how you would enforce this right you say men should have to choose whether or not their partners have an abortion in the case where the woman wants to keep the baby and the man wants her to abort?

    What do you think should happen in that case? Should she have to have an abortion? How would that be done?

    No she should keep obviously. If one partner wants it kept, and all is healthy, it should always be kept


  • #520
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I don't understand what your issue is with my post. If it isn't China, then where is it?
    Because it does matter where it is : if it's a country that respects people's rights then it might be worth discussing, but if it's a country which regularly inflicts appalling human rights abuses on its citizens, then you should be aware of the company you are keeping with your suggestions. As does China.

    That isn't taking it out of context, that is the context.

    My point was on the protection of fathers rights. That he should also get a say, and have to consent to the abortion. If that was the case in the UK I would have referenced them too. You walk to talk about China's economy while we're at it? Their relationship with North Korea? Or stick to the point?


  • #521
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    The line's get blurred if it's rape and I'm on the fence with that. Funny how pro-choicer's always have to resort to the exception to further their case. If he wasn't around to ask she should have to keep it as I'm against abortion in the majority of cases, with exceptions of course. Well if there was something in my body that was half hers, I'd give her exactly the same input

    And if I were King of Siam I'd have a harem of men! Hardly going to happen though is it, so that's not exactly holding yourself to any sort of standard there, it's just bluffing.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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  • #522
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    No she should keep obviously. If one partner wants it kept, and all is healthy, it should always be kept

    How can and should that be enforced if a woman wants an abortion instead? What would you do if your girlfriend decided abortion was the right choice?


  • #523
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    lazygal wrote: »
    Which exceptions mean it's ok to kill the unborn? And why are the circumstances of conception relevant if abortion is a joint decision? How should a man be able to.decide on whether a woman has an abortion?

    Do you just reply with questions and attempt to pick hole's on other people's opinions, or can your form any for yourself?

    FFA for example. I'm against abortion, and if both wanted it gone I'd still be against it. If one wants to keep it, then it should be kept. What don't you understand?


  • #524
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Try and reason with her I would have thought?

    So you admit that he doesn't have any say about what she does if she chooses not to take his concerns into account? He can try and reason with her, but any decisions are ultimately hers, as it is her body?


  • #525
    stinkle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭stinkle


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    The line's get blurred if it's rape and I'm on the fence with that. Funny how pro-choicer's always have to resort to the exception to further their case. If he wasn't around to ask she should have to keep it as I'm against abortion in the majority of cases, with exceptions of course. Well if there was something in my body that was half hers, I'd give her exactly the same input
    Rape isn't an exception, it's more common that most people think. It's not all "woman attacked in dark alleyway", it's most often by a partner, friend or relative i.e. someone known to the victim, and may or may not involve drugs/alcohol.

    She should have to keep it as *the man* isn't around to make a decision for her? Are you for real? If that's your attitude to women then I doubt you would let a partner make decisions on your behalf.


  • #526
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    No she should keep obviously. If one partner wants it kept, and all is healthy, it should always be kept

    So what you're actually saying is that if one of the partners refuses the abortion, there should be no abortion. Only if both agree to abort it should be allowed. Is that it?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #527
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    volchitsa wrote: »
    And if I were King of Siam I'd have a harem of men! Hardly going to happen though is it, so that's not exactly holding yourself to any sort of standard there, it's just bluffing.

    I wasn't the one who came up with the analogy, was I? If you think it's bluffing then fair enough, but I reckon you should take point with the person asking me these questions


  • #528
    inocybe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    But it CAN be done? That is interesting! I thought it could not be done until the fetus or baby was outside the womb, whether through birth or miscarriage.

    Your reaction is strange. How is causing a miscarriage by an invasive test any different from an abortion?


  • #529
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    volchitsa wrote: »
    So what you're actually saying is that if one of the partners refuses the abortion, there should be no abortion. Only if both agree to abort it should be allowed. Is that it?

    No there shouldn't be an abortion at all, least not if one want's to keep it


  • #530
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Do you just reply with questions and attempt to pick hole's on other people's opinions, or can your form any for yourself?

    FFA for example. I'm against abortion, and if both wanted it gone I'd still be against it. If one wants to keep it, then it should be kept. What don't you understand?

    I don't understand why abortion is ok in some circumstances like FFA but not others if as you say you think women should remain pregnant regardless of their wishes. How exactly can women be obliged to remain pregnant only because the man who supplied the sperm wants them too? You seem to.think pregnancy, labour and birth has no.effects whatsoever on women.


  • #531
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    No there shouldn't be an abortion at all, least not if one want's to keep it

    Unless there's a FFA as you said. Are you ok with abortion if a woman's life is at risk? Or her health? Why is it ok to have abortions in cases of FFA at 20 weeks but not for other reasons before 12 weeks?


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  • #532
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    So you admit that he doesn't have any say about what she does if she chooses not to take his concerns into account? He can try and reason with her, but any decisions are ultimately hers, as it is her body?

    I don't think your analogy is like for like. If it was me and she didn't want to keep it, and I persuaded her to keep it, I wouldn't be pestering her every 2 seconds about what she's doing


  • #533
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    I wasn't the one who came up with the analogy, was I? If you think it's bluffing then fair enough, but I reckon you should take point with the person asking me these questions
    I didn't think there was any analogy, not that I was asking about anyway.
    You said that in China the father had to give his permission for an abortion and you thought this was an example that should be followed elsewhere. I pointed out that China is responsible for forced abortions on women, with or without the father's consent, so is hardly a good example in terms of human rights.

    You got all sniffy about me taking your point out of context, but I'm still at a loss as to how it's out of context, my point is in the context of your example of China. And if it's not China, then unless you want to retract the claim, I think you need to say where it happens, because to my knowledge that sort of thing could only happen in countries where human rights abuses occur.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #534
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    I don't think your analogy is like for like. If it was me and she didn't want to keep it, and I persuaded her to keep it, I wouldn't be pestering her every 2 seconds about what she's doing

    Would you try to prevent her accessing abortion? If so, how?


  • #535
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    My point being the pro choice crowd have filled this thread up with arguments which have nothing to do with the vast majority of abortions

    Yet we still wont legislate for rape and incest cases, you can't a rgue that's the pro choice sides fault. That's because any suggested small change to the law gets the rosary brigade conservatives out saying it will be the slippery slope and will be abused. Charitable and Christian sort they are.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #536
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    lazygal wrote: »
    I don't understand why abortion is ok in some circumstances like FFA but not others if as you say you think women should remain pregnant regardless of their wishes. How exactly can women be obliged to remain pregnant only because the man who supplied the sperm wants them too? You seem to.think pregnancy, labour and birth has no.effects whatsoever on women.

    I'd say the lack of a brain. What do you think?

    What about a guy committing suicide from depression after being made up that he was going to be a dad, and then it was robbed from him. Or are you only concerned about the women?


  • #537
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    No there shouldn't be an abortion at all, least not if one want's to keep it

    How should this be enforced? If she wants to go to England for an abortion and he doesn't want her to, what can he do about it? Do you think that he should be able to have her imprisoned to force her to continue with the pregnancy?


  • #538
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    No there shouldn't be an abortion at all, least not if one want's to keep it

    I asked you what if both want to abort? Would you agree with an abortion then?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #539
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    I'd say the lack of a brain. What do you think?

    What about a guy committing suicide from depression after being made up that he was going to be a dad, and then it was robbed from him. Or are you only concerned about the women?

    So to stop men committing suicide women should be forced to remain pregnant? How would that work exactly? Should the right to travel be repealed and all women checked to make sure every cycle they aren't pregnant and aren't having abortions? What about women who have to go through pregnancy and labour and birth? You don't seem to care a jot.about your girlfriend going through all.that.


  • #540
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I didn't think there was any analogy, not that I was asking about anyway.
    You said that in China the father had to give his permission for an abortion and you thought this was an example that should be followed elsewhere. I pointed out that China is responsible for forced abortions on women, with or without the father's consent, so is hardly a good example in terms of human rights.

    You got all sniffy about me taking your point out of context, but I'm still at a loss as to how it's out of context, my point is in the context of your example of China. And if it's not China, then unless you want to retract the claim, I think you need to say where it happens, because to my knowledge that sort of thing could only happen in countries where human rights abuses occur.

    Right, scratch China. I think the father also having to consent to an abortion is a good idea. With the semantics out of the way, we back on the same page?


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  • #541
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Right, scratch China. I think the father also having to consent to an abortion is a good idea. With the semantics out of the way, we back on the same page?

    So the man gets the final say. Why?


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