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Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

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Comments

  • #482
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    As opposed to her having to only AND final say?

    It's her body. Of course she should have the final say.


  • #483
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,186 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    Really, can you provide statistical evidence for this, I'd be interested to read it?
    It's a major life decision, I guess it depends what you mean by difficult. For some women they can envisage no other alternative right from the minute they're pregnant (think of Miss Y, but also probably any young girl who just can't see herself as a mother at that stage of her life) So is that a difficult decision? I don't know, I'd say if you already see yourself as someone who wants a child in the future, then learning that you're pregnant at a time when motherhood is impossible must be a terribly difficult choice to make, either way. It doesn't necessarily mean that continuing the pregnancy was ever an option all the same.

    So let's not get hung up on "difficult" - it's one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions. What really matters is whether it needs to be a traumatizing decision, and there I think it's clear that in Ireland the decision is made to be as traumatic as possible. When I had my termination (I wasn't living in Ireland at the time) everyone was so nice and so understanding, and I was terribly sad, for a while. And they told me that was normal, and it would pass. And it does. Part of it is just hormonal, like the Baby Blues. You get over it. I had other kids already and life goes on, rather like after a miscarriage, in some ways. (I had one of those too).

    But I feel so terrible thinking about young women in Ireland being led to believe they're such monsters, and also just physically, having to travel abroad, spending money they possibly can't really afford, compared to how much compassion I got. I know pro-lifers want it like that, so they can then use the trauma those women suffer to "prove" what a horrible experience a pregnancy terminatio has to be, but once the decision is taken, it really isn't much worse than, say, a miscarriage where you secretly feel maybe you were actually responsible.

    So : difficult? I'd say - definitely. Traumatizing? I'd say : only if other people want it to be. And in Ireland unfortunately some people do want exactly that.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #484
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It's her body. Of course she should have the final say.

    It's not only her body anymore


  • #485
    j80ezgvc3p92xu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭j80ezgvc3p92xu


    Let no one fool you - these children deserve to live as much as anybody else, the circumstances of their conception is never their fault. Please do not let anyone tell you that the mother's selfishness can ever come before the life of an innocent child.

    https://lifesite-cache.s3.amazonaws.com/images/made/images/news/sculpture2_645_469_55.jpg

    I wish someone put this sculpture in the middle of Dublin.


  • #486
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    It's not only her body anymore

    Until such time as the baby can survive outside the womb it's her body.


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  • #487
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Until such time as the baby can survive outside the womb it's her body.

    How? Does it not exist until it's outside the womb?


  • #488
    NachoBusiness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭NachoBusiness


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Most people would see it as a good thing that women have a bit of self confidence and are able to make their own decisions these days even if you might not agree with the decisions they make.

    A "bit" of self confidence? There is difference between someone having a bit of self confidence and them having a downright narcissistic, arrogant and inconsiderate attitude to babies in the womb. Saying a woman should never feel guilty "whatever" her reason is for having an abortion is nauseating quite frankly. If men could somehow get pregnant and carry a woman's child, I think you might change your attitude very fast. Can you imagine a man being five and half months pregnant with a woman's child and saying it was his business and his business alone. Women's rights groups would be on the streets marching wanting him prosecuted if he had so much had too many sugars in his fcuking tea whilst carrying the child.
    I don't know why you are surprise a woman would be pro choice - a lot of us are.

    I know many pro-choice women who don't think a woman should just be able to have an abortion after 20 weeks and "whatever" her reasons are, that's fine, she should not feel guilty or need to explain herself.
    Not all women get excited and broody at the thought of a pregnancy.

    ...
    If they make a decision to end that pregnancy I don't need to know, I trust that any woman making that decision has made an informed choice just like I do with those who decide to have the baby.

    Here you go again speaking about women as if they always make noble choices. I have no issue with accepting that some men are bad bastards, I am not sure why it is that some women seem to take great exception at the notion that some women are vindictive and selfish.
    You think that's callous? I think your lack of empathy for women is callous.

    I think it's callous in the extreme to have a belief that women should be able to abort unborn children, specifically late term, no matter their reasoning. I find it barbaric quite honestly and I think many pro choice women do too. That's why they hate pro lifers (who I have issues with myself) displaying photos of dissected and dying fetuses. It's too much of reality check for many of them to deal with.

    Oh and I am not sure what you mean by my supposedly not having empathy for women means as I have stated that I would vote for abortion given the choice. Like I said earlier in the thread, the abortion as a means for birth control crowd always sanctimoniously use the rare cases of where a women's life is at stake to further their cause and here you are doing just that. I have empathy for any women that has trauma in her life, it's just that I have about zero for those that don't, pretend to and then choose to abort a baby at a stage where it has an excellent chance of life outside of the womb, were it lucky enough to be born premature.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    I don't think many people expect to hear from women who have had abortions on debates like this, especially people who they might have interacted with on other threads. We seem so normal :eek:

    This is cringe worthy in the extreme. You really think people that are anti abortion or anti late term abortions have never interacted with women before, or know women, or have mothers, friends, girlfriends, sisters, female cousins, aunts etc? Women that they know and speak with on these matters and who might have had relevant experiences which have possibly gone on to inform their current beliefs? Is that really too much for you to grasp. Not every guy online who disagrees with you is sitting his parents basement, never having had contact with a human female before you know. That's white knights your thinking of there :P

    Seriously though. I have seen similar comments like this before and it's quite odd. People who are anti abortion, or anti late stage abortions, are just as normal as you are and have just as many friends and family members as you also. You don't have the monopoly on that. It's odd that you would think you do.


  • #489
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    And why is it so difficult and traumatic? Because it's morally wrong and it eats away at their conscience?

    Hope your joking bringing "control" into it

    You really just don't get it and no amount of discussion will ever persuade you otherwise. So I'm not even going to bother arguing with you. Night night. :)


  • #490
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    You really just don't get it and no amount of discussion will ever persuade you otherwise. So I'm not even going to bother arguing with you. Night night. :)

    Well I do "get it" as it just so happens.


  • #491
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,186 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    You're missing the point, Nachobusiness. It's obvious, given the numbers of Irish women who travel to terminate their pregancies, that probably everyone in Ireland knows someone who's had an abortion, they just may not know it themselves. That's not what she was saying, she was making a point about the sort of language that's used on here, about killing babies, or suggesting a poster was "distressed" that the number of abortions had gone down!

    The point is that some posters here do demonize women who have had abortions, and personally I very much doubt that they would dare use that language to someone's face. But maybe I'm wrong, and they really would ask someone they know why they bothered bringing their baby's remains home, since they had killed and thus obviously didn't care about it anyway (as posted here earlier).

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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  • #492
    seenitall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,735 ✭✭✭seenitall


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Explain the changeable Islamic position then?



    They are tiny minorities in those communities - have you ever actually met one? (yes you might meet homosexuals that dislike some aspects of Gay culture, thats the same as me disliking some aspects of straight culture it doesn't make me hetrophobic! )

    These posts are a perfect example of why I think for a view point that there is a subset of the pro-choice wing that are very hypocritical, you pat yourself on the back that your rejecting outdated religious superstitions and reactionary traditionalist culture from a point of logic yet its all about easy point scoring that only appeals to those who already agree with you.



    Thats actually an interesting subject, have read a bit about foot binding (because it was a remarkably stable cultural phenomenon for such a long time), ironically much of that motivation was about social betterment - if you didn't bind your daughters feet she had no possibility of a "good" marraige.

    Explain the changeable Islamic position? I don't even know what you are on about. How about you explain the glaring discrepancy in rabid pro-life stance when it comes to an implanted embryo, as opposed to not a peep heard when it's one outside the womb, first?

    What does the scale of indoctrination have to do with anything? How long is a piece of string? There are actually loads of self-loathing gay people who have been taught that what they are is abominable and a sin. There are unfortunately many women who have been taught that having autonomy of one's own body once you're pregnant, and daring to make choices for yourself is an unspeakable sin. Wrong wrong wrong. It will take a lot of discussion to change that. A lot. You needn't be worrying that late term abortions on demand are coming to a clinic near you any time soon.

    Oh so you think I'm all about easy point scoring? Thanks! :D


  • #493
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    Madison Hundreds Leprechaun wrote: »
    Let no one fool you - these children deserve to live as much as anybody else, the circumstances of their conception is never their fault. Please do not let anyone tell you that the mother's selfishness can ever come before the life of an innocent child.

    https://lifesite-cache.s3.amazonaws.com/images/made/images/news/sculpture2_645_469_55.jpg

    I wish someone put this sculpture in the middle of Dublin.

    Ahh, so sweet maybe we can put a little statue of Jesus up instead with an insricption on suffering little children. :D Yes, I am being sarcastic.


  • #494
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    NachoBusiness wrote: »
    A "bit" of self confidence? There is difference between someone having a bit of self confidence and them having a downright narcissistic, arrogant and inconsiderate attitude to babies in the womb. Saying a woman should never feel guilty "whatever" her reason is for having an abortion is nauseating qute frankly. If men could someone get pregnant and carry a woman's child I think you might change your attitude very fast. Can you imagine a man who was five and half months pregnant with a woman's child saying it was his business and his business alone. Women's rights groups would on the streets marching wanting him prosecuted if so much had too many sugars in his fcuking tea whilst carrying the child.



    I know many pro-choice women who don't think a woman should have an abortion after 20 weeks and "whatever" her reasons are, she should not feel guilty or need to explain herself.



    ...



    Here you go again speaking about women as if they are always make noble choices. I have no issue with accepting that some men are bad bastards, I am not sure why it is that some women seem to take great exception at the notion that some women a vindictive and selfish.



    I think it's callous in the extreme have a belief that women should be able to abort unborn children, specifically late term, no matter their reasoning. I find it barbaric quite honestly and I think pro choice women do to. That's why they hate pro lifers (who I have issues with myself) displaying photos of dissected and dying fetuses.

    Oh and I am not sure what you the charge of me supposedly not having empathy for women means as I have stated that I would vote for abortion given the choice. Like I said earlier in the thread, the abortion as a means for birth control crowd always sanctimoniously use the rare cases of where a women's life is at stake to further their cause and here you are doing just that. I have empathy for any women that has trauma in her life, just that I have about zero for those that don't and choose to abort a baby at a stage where it has an excellent chance of life outside of the womb, were it lucky enough to be born premature.



    This is cringe worthy in the extreme. You really think people that are anti abortion or anti late term abortions have never interacted with women before, or know women, or have mothers, friends, girlfriends, sisters, female cousins, aunts etc? Women that they know and speak with on these matters and who might have had experiences which have possibly gone on to inform their current beliefs? Is that really too much for you to grasp. Not everyone guy online who disagrees with you is sitting his parents basement, never having had contact with a human female before. That's white knights your thinking of there :P

    Seriously though. I have seen similar comments like this before and it's quite odd. People who are anti abortion, or late stage abortions, are just as normal as you are and have just as many friends and family members as you also. You don't have the monopoly on that. It's odd that you would think you do.


    You make interesting points there, I don't agree with your view but I respect your position. I know many people who would share your views and I can understand where you are coming from. I take on board what you say about voting for abortion. I'm surprised given your views above that you would but you wouldn't do that if you didn't empathise with people so apologies for my earlier comment.


  • #495
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Explain the changeable Islamic position then?



    They are tiny minorities in those communities - have you ever actually met one? (yes you might meet homosexuals that dislike some aspects of Gay culture, thats the same as me disliking some aspects of straight culture it doesn't make me hetrophobic! )

    These posts are a perfect example of why I think for a view point that there is a subset of the pro-choice wing that are very hypocritical, you pat yourself on the back that your rejecting outdated religious superstitions and reactionary traditionalist culture from a point of logic yet its all about easy point scoring that only appeals to those who already agree with you.



    Thats actually an interesting subject, have read a bit about foot binding (because it was a remarkably stable cultural phenomenon for such a long time), ironically much of that motivation was about social betterment - if you didn't bind your daughters feet she had no possibility of a "good" marraige.

    But, as pointed out in the short story ‘A Visit From The Foot Binder’ by Emily Prager, if all the girls were natural footed, the men would have no choice but to marry them anyway.


  • #496
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    I think there should be new laws brought into the UK, akin to China (I think it's China), that if a woman wants an abortion that then the father has to also consent to it.

    Can a DNA test be performed on a fetus of under 12 weeks' gestation?


  • #497
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    seenitall wrote: »
    Explain the changeable Islamic position? I don't even know what you are on about. How about you explain the glaring discrepancy in rabid pro-life stance when it comes to an implanted embryo, as opposed to not a peep heard when it's one outside the womb, first?

    What does the scale of indoctrination have to do with anything? How long is a piece of string? There are actually loads of self-loathing gay people who have been taught that what they are is abominable and a sin. There are unfortunately many women who have been taught that having autonomy of one's own body once you're pregnant, and daring to make choices for yourself is an unspeakable sin. Wrong wrong wrong. It will take a lot of discussion to change that. A lot. You needn't be worrying that late term abortions on demand are coming to a clinic near you any time soon.

    Oh so you think I'm all about easy point scoring? Thanks! :D

    When does anybody, in general, try and dispute the autonomy of a woman's body in Ireland? When pregnant, she isn't making a choice for herself, she houses something else, in which 50% also belongs to someone else too. So why should she have the sole decision on getting rid of something that is not her body, and which will have knock on effects to the father who may want to keep it? This nauseating condescending inconsiderate high and mighty selfish "my body" sh!te is what annoys most pro-life campaigners and people in general, and sounds like something a hardcore feminist would come out with. The fact you're trying to compare a pregnancy with woman as second class citizens is pathetic and disingenuous in the extreme


  • #498
    inocybe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    Can a DNA test be performed on a fetus of under 12 weeks' gestation?

    It would carry a risk of miscarriage, a bit self-defeating?


  • #499
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    It's not only her body anymore

    So who do you think should have the power to make legal/medical decisions about a woman's body while she is pregnant then?

    Since it is 'not only her body anymore', do you think that she should have to seek someone else's permission to make other decisions that may affect the foetus? I'm not just talking about abortion here. Should there be legal restrictions put on other things that may affect the foetus, such as food/drink/activities/medical decisions while a woman is pregnant?

    Who do you think should make such decisions?


  • #500
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    So who do you think should have the power to make legal/medical decisions about a woman's body while she is pregnant then?

    Since it is 'not only her body anymore', do you think that she should have to seek someone else's permission to make other decisions that may affect the foetus? I'm not just talking about abortion here. Should there be legal restrictions put on other things that may affect the foetus, such as food/drink/activities/medical decisions while a woman is pregnant?

    Who do you think should make such decisions?

    The man and the woman together


  • #501
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    inocybe wrote: »
    It would carry a risk of miscarriage, a bit self-defeating?

    But it CAN be done? That is interesting! I thought it could not be done until the fetus or baby was outside the womb, whether through birth or miscarriage.


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  • #502
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,186 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    Can a DNA test be performed on a fetus of under 12 weeks' gestation?

    Sounds more like Saudi Arabia than China anyway doesn't it? I think there they require the husband's consent for just about anything, including contraception and abortion.

    China has forced abortion though, but not depending on what either member of the couple may want, but because there a strict limit of how many children a couple is allowed to have. Forced abortion is an unforgivable assault on the woman, whoever orders it.

    So anyway. Seems a very strange place for an anti-abortion poster to be praising.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #503
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,186 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    The man and the woman together

    How would that work? Supposing the man wanted her to abort and she didn't, would she have to be anaesthetized against her will or something?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #504
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Sounds more like Saudi Arabia than China anyway doesn't it? I think there they require the husband's consent for just about anything, including contraception and abortion.

    China has forced abortion though, but not depending on what either member of the couple may want, but because there a strict limit of how many children a couple is allowed to have. Forced abortion is an unforgivable assault on the woman, whoever orders it.

    So anyway. Seems a very strange place for an anti-abortion poster to be praising.

    Taking what I said out of context? Pro-choice campaigners seem to be good at that


  • #505
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    volchitsa wrote: »
    How would that work? Supposing the man wanted her to abort and she didn't, would she have to be anaesthetized against her will or something?

    No why would she? You again taking my point out of context and trying to present it as me saying a man should be able to do what he wants?


  • #506
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    The man and the woman together

    And what should the man do about it if he believes that the pregnant woman is not acting in the best interests of the foetus? Perhaps in such circumstances he should be given immediate sole custody of the foetus?


  • #507
    blacklilly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    raze_them_all_ wrote: »
    And yet there are never any charges against people who fail to commit suicide, it's almost like everyone knows it's an archaic law.

    "Committing" suicide is not a used term any more. Suicide has been decrimilised and it is now reported as a death through suicide


  • #508
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    And what should the man do about it if he believes that the pregnant woman is not acting in the best interests of the foetus? Perhaps in such circumstances he should be given immediate sole custody of the foetus?

    Try and reason with her I would have thought?


  • #509
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    The man and the woman together

    If your girlfriend had decided to abort what rights would you have to stop her?


  • #510
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    lazygal wrote: »
    If your girlfriend had decided to abort what rights would you have to stop her?

    None, which is wrong, which was the point


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  • #511
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    None, which is wrong, which was the point

    How should you be able to stop her having an abortion?


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