Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

eviltwin · 11-06-2015 03:10PM

The shaming of women who have abortions is horrific. I suppose we have to find some group to replace single mothers as the bad guys :rolleyes: There is no shame in having an abortion, I've done it and I am a very nice, respectable middle aged woman. I bet most people here who think of me as a murderer would like me if they met me.

Until more women like me come out and be honest and show the country that abortion is not something that only affects other women or a certain type of woman nothing will change.

Samaris · 11-06-2015 03:10PM

You're thinking of the Pill, nox. The morning after pill - you're half-right - prevents the sperm and the egg from bonding together once both of them are in there hunting for each other, or prevents the fertilised egg from implanting in the uterine wall. After that, it really depends on where your concept of life beginning comes from.

The Contraceptive Pill is very similar, but it is used to prevent ovulation. Obviously that isn't the concern so much right after unprotected sex unless the timing was rather amazing; the sperm doesn't last that long alone.

11-06-2015 03:11PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I have before I posted. Wikipedia will give you all the details you need, in case you don't know where to begin.

I didn't read wiki but the sources I am reading indicate that its primary role is to prevent the release of the egg.

I'v better thing to be doing than arguing over this in any case.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 03:14PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

I didn't read wiki but the sources I am reading indicate that its primary role is to prevent the release of the egg.

I'v better thing to be doing than arguing over this in any case.

That would be the contraceptive pill. Not the morning after pill.

Seeing as you're so adamant that a zygote is already a human being with full rights, I find it a little odd that you'd agree with the morning after pill which will effectively cause the abortion of a zygot should one have resulted from intercourse within the previous 72 hours.

11-06-2015 03:21PM

Shenshen wrote: »

That would be the contraceptive pill. Not the morning after pill.

Seeing as you're so adamant that a zygote is already a human being with full rights, I find it a little odd that you'd agree with the morning after pill which will effectively cause the abortion of a zygot should one have resulted from intercourse within the previous 72 hours.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/morning-after-pill-emergency-contraception

http://www.drmarie.org.au/ask-dr-marie/contraception/morning-after-pill/how-does-the-morning-after-pill-work

http://www.webmd.com/women/guide/plan-b

The fact is that the morning after pill is not an abortion, it just isn't so I'm not going to entertain your baiting.

_Whimsical_ · 11-06-2015 03:27PM

Shenshen wrote: »

That would be the contraceptive pill. Not the morning after pill.

Seeing as you're so adamant that a zygote is already a human being with full rights, I find it a little odd that you'd agree with the morning after pill which will effectively cause the abortion of a zygot should one have resulted from intercourse within the previous 72 hours.

Well in the interests of fairness the morning after pill can do both prevent or delay ovulation and prevent embedding of the zygote in the womb lining if there is one . Brands differ but some of them do both others just prevent ovulation.

From the Irish Family Planning association :

MYTH: The emergency contraceptive pill causes an abortion

FACT: The emergency contraceptive pill does not cause an abortion, it prevents pregnancy. It works by preventing or delaying ovulation, thereby preventing fertilisation. The emergency contraceptive pill will not disrupt an existing pregnancy.

https://www.ifpa.ie/Hot-Topics/Emergency-Contraception/Myths-Facts

Samaris · 11-06-2015 03:27PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/morning-after-pill-emergency-contraception

http://www.drmarie.org.au/ask-dr-marie/contraception/morning-after-pill/how-does-the-morning-after-pill-work

http://www.webmd.com/women/guide/plan-b

The fact is that the morning after pill is not an abortion, it just isn't so I'm not going to entertain your baiting.

OK, we're all partly right and partly wrong here. The answer is a bit more complex than any of us have commented on so far, and it's really "it depends".

If you are just prior to ovulation when you have unprotected sex, and you use either copper or EC can prevent or delay ovul;ation - as Nox is saying. If you have already ovulated, it prevents implantation, as Shen has been saying. You cannot really say that it is exclusively a prevention method in terms of fertilization OR exclusively an abortifacient. You may take the morning after pill and caue a spontaneous abortion of a fertilised egg OR it may just prevent the egg from being released.

Edit: What is pregnancy? Some people will say it's a fertilised egg and some, myself, Family Planning, etc, will at the LEAST say it needs to implant first.

_Whimsical_ · 11-06-2015 03:36PM

Samaris wrote: »

OK, we're all partly right and partly wrong here. The answer is a bit more complex than any of us have commented on so far, and it's really "it depends".

If you are just prior to ovulation when you have unprotected sex, and you use either copper or EC can prevent or delay ovul;ation - as Nox is saying. If you have already ovulated, it prevents implantation, as Shen has been saying. You cannot really say that it is exclusively a prevention method in terms of fertilization OR exclusively an abortifacient. You may take the morning after pill and caue a spontaneous abortion of a fertilised egg OR it may just prevent the egg from being released.

Edit: What is pregnancy? Some people will say it's a fertilised egg and some, myself, Family Planning, etc, will at the LEAST say it needs to implant first.

Up until March of this year the only Morning After Pill with an abortifacient effect available in Ireland was prescription only. The type of pill available over the counter that most women took merely prevented ovulation.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 03:36PM

I'm curious now, how does a pill that only prevents ovulation, taken 3 days after intercourse, prevent pregnancy?

That sounds like perfectly useless medication. In 3 days, an ovum can be well over half-way to your womb, so if it doesn't prevent implantation what good is it?

Edit: To clarify a little, I'm not from Ireland. The information we were given throughout our years in school was that the regular pill was to prevent ovulation, and the morning after pill will prevent implantation. So I'm rather confused that here there seem to be morning after pills that - well, really are just regular pills?

Samaris · 11-06-2015 03:38PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Up until March of this year the only Morning After Pill with an abortifacient effect available in Ireland was prescription only. The type of pill available over the counter that most women took merely prevented ovulation.

Ah, I see. The one time I had to use such, I had to go to a doctor to have it prescribed. I hated it.

I'm glad it's finally become a bit more accepted, if it's available over the counter now.

_Whimsical_ · 11-06-2015 03:41PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm curious now, how does a pill that only prevents ovulation, taken 3 days after intercourse, prevent pregnancy?

That sounds like perfectly useless medication. In 3 days, an ovum can be well over half-way to your womb, so if it doesn't prevent implantation what good is it?

Edit: To clarify a little, I'm not from Ireland. The information we were given throughout our years in school was that the regular pill was to prevent ovulation, and the morning after pill will prevent implantation. So I'm rather confused that here there seem to be morning after pills that - well, really are just regular pills?

Well they're by far the most commonly used in Ireland and the UK so they must be effective. I imagine they have less future implications for your health and less side effects. Very important to be mindful of your weight when using them too as above a certain weight, around 11-12 stone I think, they lose efficacy, and in some cases are completely useless as a result.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 03:43PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Well they're by far the most commonly used in Ireland and the UK. I imagine they have less future implications for your health and less side effects. Very important to be mindful of your weight when using them too as above a certain weight, around 11-12 stone I think, they lose efficacy, and in some cases are completely useless as a result.

Well, they would be completely useless if you happened to have ovulated on Thursday, had sex on Saturday and got this pill on the Sunday... What's their failure rate? I imagine it would be very high.

Samaris · 11-06-2015 03:45PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, they would be completely useless if you happened to have ovulated on Thursday, had sex on Saturday and got this pill on the Sunday... What's their failure rate? I imagine it would be very high.

I think that's the sort of situation that you go to the clinic about. That's what I had to do, and make an appointment with the nurse. It could have been worse, but there was an awful feel of shame to it.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 03:54PM

Maybe it's time to go back to the subject matter :

How do our resident anti-abortionists feel about the types of morning after pill that will prevent implantation of a fertilised ovum?

_Whimsical_ · 11-06-2015 03:54PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, they would be completely useless if you happened to have ovulated on Thursday, had sex on Saturday and got this pill on the Sunday... What's their failure rate? I imagine it would be very high.

I doubt it's very high as this was the only morning after pill in Ireland and the UK for quite a long time and I don't really remember hearing much complaints that it hadn't worked.

It seems it's very difficult to calculate efficacy rates officially though for ethical reasons as there are too many variants, with different people ovulating at different times or having underlying fertility issues, you just don't really know why a pregnancy does not result for absolute sure so it would be unethical to attribute all non-pregnancies to the pill.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 03:58PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I doubt it's very high as this was the only morning after pill in Ireland and the UK for quite a long time and I don't really remember hearing much complaints that it hadn't worked.

It seems it's very difficult to calculate efficacy rates officially though for ethical reasons as there are too many variants, with different people ovulating at different times or having underlying fertility issues, you just don't really know why a pregnancy does not result for absolute sure so it would be unethical to attribute all non-pregnancies to the pill.

True about the measuring. But I still think for this to be sold as an honest-to-goodness contraceptive, surely it would at least have to have language on the packaging advising that if fertilisation has already taken place, it's ineffective.
And maybe some instructions on the temperature method, so that next time you could save your money rather than buying one?

Samaris · 11-06-2015 04:02PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Maybe it's time to go back to the subject matter :

How do our resident anti-abortionists feel about the types of morning after pill that will prevent implantation of a fertilised ovum?

Rather dangerous phrasing. Many of us might be pro-choice, but have some issues with it depending on circumstance.

I, for instance, would be against abortion in very late-term pregnancies. That aside though, I have no issue with preventing implantation of a fertilised ovum. Then again, I am fully pro-choice for the first trimester, perhaps second, but I'm undecided on that and pro-choice where it is clearly necessary after that.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 04:05PM

Samaris wrote: »

Rather dangerous phrasing. Many of us might be pro-choice, but have some issues with it depending on circumstance.

I, for instance, would be against abortion in very late-term pregnancies. That aside though, I have no issue with preventing implantation of a fertilised ovum. Then again, I am fully pro-choice for the first trimester, perhaps second, but I'm undecided on that and pro-choice where it is clearly necessary after that.

I would very much share your opinion, I would prefer late-term abortions to only be available in exceptional cases.

But during the first trimester, I personally don't believe it makes sense to deny an abortion. As I posted before, we regard a person clinically dead when they have no measurable brain activity. Why would we regard one as alive before they have brain activity?

_Whimsical_ · 11-06-2015 04:14PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I would very much share your opinion, I would prefer late-term abortions to only be available in exceptional cases.

But during the first trimester, I personally don't believe it makes sense to deny an abortion. As I posted before, we regard a person clinically dead when they have no measurable brain activity. Why would we regard one as alive before they have brain activity?

I don't know fully how I feel about all of this, I feel awful for women in that position though so I really would feel compassion rather any judgement.
To answer your point though I personally wouldn't compare the two, where someone is dead this is no potential for life, with a foetus there is always potential for life.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 04:22PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I don't know fully how I feel about all of this, I feel awful for women in that position though so I really would feel compassion rather any judgement.
To answer your point though I personally wouldn't compare the two, where someone is dead this is no potential for life, with a foetus there is always potential for life.

I'm always cautious about "potential". It's just as hard to measure or quantify as the effectiveness of a contraceptive.
After all, every sperm and every ovum have potential. Not as much as a zygote or an embryo maybe, but where do we draw the line? It used to be the church's reasoning for regarding rape to be a lesser sin than masturbation, after all.

And I prefer to think of existing reality before taking potentials into account.
And the existing reality in a case where a woman contemplates an abortion is mental and emotinal distress, possibly physical distress, lack of support and even potential danger.
In my view, these have much more weight than growing cells that may or may not become a human being one day, given the right circumstances.

Electric Sheep · 11-06-2015 04:26PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'm in college, have a part time job, pay rent etc. I'm broke basically, and have another 3 years of college ahead of me. Got my girlfriend pregnant and she's in a similar situation. Abortion wasn't an option.

Wrong. It was an option you chose not to avail of.

Electric Sheep · 11-06-2015 04:28PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

I didn't read wiki but the sources I am reading indicate that its primary role is to prevent the release of the egg.

I'v better thing to be doing than arguing over this in any case.

Wrong. It's primary role is preventing implantation of a fertilized egg.

_Whimsical_ · 11-06-2015 04:33PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Wrong. It's primary role is preventing implantation of a fertilized egg.

Wrong!
Haha- sorry I couldn't resist

Read back. We've covered this one.
Actually it's rather worrying how little people know about this.

11-06-2015 04:34PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Wrong. It's primary role is preventing implantation of a fertilized egg.

I've provided link which show otherwise.

Samaris · 11-06-2015 04:37PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Wrong!
Haha- sorry I couldn't resist
Read back. We've covered this one.
Actually it's rather worrying how little people know about this.

It is rather. I'm rather sorry I brought it up! I'm not positive what consensus we've reached on it, but afaik currently it depends on the type of Pill and your own ovulation status having taken it.

Regarding your links, Daniel Handsome Sociology, all of the links I've read seem to be a bit disingenuous about it on both sides, depending on which publication you read.

_Whimsical_ · 11-06-2015 04:44PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm always cautious about "potential". It's just as hard to measure or quantify as the effectiveness of a contraceptive.
After all, every sperm and every ovum have potential. Not as much as a zygote or an embryo maybe, but where do we draw the line? It used to be the church's reasoning for regarding rape to be a lesser sin than masturbation, after all.

And I prefer to think of existing reality before taking potentials into account.
And the existing reality in a case where a woman contemplates an abortion is mental and emotinal distress, possibly physical distress, lack of support and even potential danger.
In my view, these have much more weight than growing cells that may or may not become a human being one day, given the right circumstances.

I don't think that was ever the churches teaching, it was a musing of Aquinas who was a theologian/philosopher, but he wasn't dictating church teachings. I think some consider it open to debate that he ever felt that too.

I think potential is an important factor. A sperm/ovum on it's own has no potential so that's a fairly logical place to draw the line in my opinion, it wouldn't be at all as wooly as the efficacy of emergency contraceptives. A foetus of upto 12 weeks as you used in your example has undeniable potential for life though and really couldn't be compared to a dead person.

As for existing realities it's fine if you don't accept that a foetus has potential for life or a right to that life, then it's perfectly clear cut, but if you do it becomes about the competing interests of both the mother and child.

TommyOM · 11-06-2015 04:44PM

I have only returned from Ireland a few hours ago having travelled to the UK to get an abortion with a girl.

I have to say it was utterly heart breaking to see her keeled over in pain for nearly 2 days in some ****ty hotel room away from her family and the comforts of her own home. It is a tough enough ordeal for a woman to go through without having to travel to a foreign country to get it done.

It is very expensive as well. In my case she wanted to do it before it showed a heartbeat so last minute flights and hotels were over a thousand euros for 2 people. That is on top of having to pay over 400euros for the procedure itself (which seems extraordinary considering it is just a couple of pills). I know in the grand scheme of things the costs involved seemed trivial but I can only imagine how difficult the entire ordeal must be for those in less well off positions.

I'm still a bit numb to the whole thing, she was 50/50 on keeping it and I said I wasn't ready but I think its something you will always think 'what if' about. Some use that as an argument that abortion should remain illegal in Ireland but people will continue to travel regardless and if that is the case (and it evidently is) then it should be legal because like I said earlier, no woman should ever have to go through what I saw that woman go through on their own in a foreign country.

_Whimsical_ · 11-06-2015 04:45PM

Samaris wrote: »

It is rather. I'm rather sorry I brought it up! I'm not positive what consensus we've reached on it, but afaik currently it depends on the type of Pill and your own ovulation status having taken it.

Regarding your links, Daniel Handsome Sociology, all of the links I've read seem to be a bit disingenuous about it on both sides, depending on which publication you read.

No sher isnt it much better that you brought it up, now more people know the truth, that they chose a different pill depending the place they are in their cycle. You might have done someone a really big favour there.

Hoop66 · 11-06-2015 04:48PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

It prevents the egg from being released from ovary.

Shows a limiited understanding of human reproduction.

Don't let that stop you though.

11-06-2015 04:57PM

Hoop66 wrote: »

Shows a limiited understanding of human reproduction.

Don't let that stop you though.

Don't let the information provided which agrees with what I have said stop you.

Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

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