Cyclists should do a theory test!

RainyDay · 11-06-2015 03:05PM

smash wrote: »

My point is that not everyone seems to know this:

I was just clarifying for RainyDay that no, he has not paid tax to use his bike on the roads. He has only paid tax which funds the road network infrastructure development.

That's quite correct. Just like you haven't paid motor tax TO USE your car on the roads. You paid motor tax BECAUSE YOU USE your car on the road.

smash · 11-06-2015 03:09PM

RainyDay wrote: »

As was pointed out earlier, motorists don't pay motor tax FOR road usage, they pay motor tax BECAUSE they use the road. It is not a payment for a service. It's a tax, based on opportunity.

Also, I don't pay tax as a motorist, or a cyclist, or a water drinker. I just pay tax - it all comes out of the same pocket. So, to summarise;

- most cyclist pay motor tax
- roads are funded from general taxation
- general taxation is funded from all taxes paid by everybody - income tax, VAT, customs and motor tax etc

Motor tax is not a payment for a service or payment for an entitlement - it's a tax.

Motor tax is a payment for an entitlement. Payment of motor tax entitles the motorist to use that particular vehicle a public road. Without payment they are not compliant and are not entitled to use that vehicle on a public road.

I don't pay motor tax because I use the roads, I pay motor tax to be allowed use the roads in the first place.

RainyDay · 11-06-2015 03:17PM

smash wrote: »

Motor tax is a payment for an entitlement. Payment of motor tax entitles the motorist to use that particular vehicle a public road. Without payment they are not compliant and are not entitled to use that vehicle on a public road.

I don't pay motor tax because I use the roads, I pay motor tax to be allowed use the roads in the first place.

You can keep saying it as often as you like, but that doesn't make it true. There is no entitlement to use the road. By your logic, any banned driver just has to pay their motor tax, and then they are 'entitled' to drive.

Could you please explain where your 'entitlement' comes from? What bit of legislation entitles you to use the road?

Because the legislation that I've seen requires you to pay motor tax, but doesn't entitle you to diddley-squat. The entitlement exists only in your mind.

beauf · 11-06-2015 03:22PM

smash wrote: »

....I don't pay motor tax because I use the roads, I pay motor tax to be allowed use a motorised vehicle on the roads in the first place.

Fixed that.

It is a legal requirement to have motor tax if you want to drive your vehicle in a public place. Motor tax is a charge imposed by the Government on some motor vehicles. Motor tax is collected by local authorities.

Drive should be use. Because you need it even when you are not driving.

smash · 11-06-2015 03:26PM

RainyDay wrote: »

You can keep saying it as often as you like, but that doesn't make it true. There is no entitlement to use the road. By your logic, any banned driver just has to pay their motor tax, and then they are 'entitled' to drive.

Could you please explain where your 'entitlement' comes from? What bit of legislation entitles you to use the road?

Because the legislation that I've seen requires you to pay motor tax, but doesn't entitle you to diddley-squat. The entitlement exists only in your mind.

No, you're twisting it to suit your agenda.

If you are unlicensed yet you have paid motor tax on your vehicle then that vehicle is entitled to be used the road network providing it is driven my a licensed and insured driver. It's true that there are steps such as a license, valid NCT and insurance but the entitlement to use the road network lies with the car having a valid motor tax certificate.

"Liability for motor tax arises when a vehicle is used in a public place/road" https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/staticContent.do?page=faq

RainyDay · 11-06-2015 03:27PM

smash wrote: »

No, you're twisting it to suit your agenda.

If you are unlicensed yet you have paid motor tax on your vehicle then that vehicle is entitled to be used the road network providing it is driven my a licensed and insured driver. It's true that there are steps such as a license, valid NCT and insurance but the entitlement to use the road network lies with the car having a valid motor tax certificate.

"Liability for motor tax arises when a vehicle is used in a public place/road" https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/staticContent.do?page=faq

Liability is not entitlement. Can you provide any proof or evidence of this entitlement - such as legislation? Or is it a matter of faith perhaps?

smash · 11-06-2015 03:29PM

RainyDay wrote: »

Liability is not entitlement. Can you provide any proof or evidence of this entitlement - such as legislation? Or is it a matter of faith perhaps?

If I have a car and have not paid motor tax, am I entitled to use it on a public road?

Pinch Flat · 11-06-2015 03:35PM

smash wrote: »

If I have a car and have not paid motor tax, am I entitled to use it on a public road?

Nope.

RainyDay · 11-06-2015 03:40PM

smash wrote: »

If I have a car and have not paid motor tax, am I entitled to use it on a public road?

Nope. The absence of entitlement does not create entitlement either.

Where is the entitlement?

smash · 11-06-2015 03:43PM

RainyDay wrote: »

Nope. The absence of entitlement does not create entitlement either.

Where is the entitlement?

Here's two specific questions for you because you're very pedantic. Answer them and explain please...

If I'm a fully licensed and insured driver who owns a car that has a valid NCT but has not paid motor tax, am I entitled to drive my car on a public road?

If I'm a fully licensed and insured driver who owns a car that has a valid NCT and up-to-date motor tax, am I entitled to drive my car on a public road?

The Dark Side · 11-06-2015 03:44PM

smash wrote: »

If you are unlicensed yet you have paid motor tax on your vehicle then that vehicle is entitled to be used the road network providing it is driven my a licensed and insured driver. It's true that there are steps such as a license, valid NCT and insurance but the entitlement to use the road network lies with the car having a valid motor tax certificate.

Do Boards hand out a medal to the guy who can turn up in the most threads and spout nonsense on topics about which he patently knows nothing?

seamus · 11-06-2015 03:49PM

smash wrote: »

Here's two specific questions for you because you're very pedantic. Answer them and explain please...

If I'm a fully licensed and insured driver who owns a car that has a valid NCT but has not paid motor tax, am I entitled to drive my car on a public road?

If I'm a fully licensed and insured driver who owns a car that has a valid NCT and up-to-date motor tax, am I entitled to drive my car on a public road?

No and No. There is no absolute entitlement to drive on any public road, regardless of whether motor tax has been paid.

Motor tax is a requirement for operating a vehicle in a public place, but it does not confer an entitlement to do so.

smash · 11-06-2015 03:52PM

The Dark Side wrote: »

Do Boards hand out a medal to the guy who can turn up in the most threads and spout nonsense on topics about which he patently knows nothing?

You tell me. You're clearly a re-reg and seem to be following me around for some obscure reason.

smash · 11-06-2015 03:56PM

seamus wrote: »

No and No. There is no absolute entitlement to drive on any public road, regardless of whether motor tax has been paid.

Motor tax is a requirement for operating a vehicle in a public place, but it does not confer an entitlement to do so.

Owning a valid license entitles me to dive a vehicle for which the licence is valid:

"Whether you have a driving licence or a learner permit, you are only entitled to drive the category of vehicle for which the licence or permit has been issued."
Source

So I am entitled to drive the vehicle, however I've stated already that the entitlement for the car to be used on a public road lies in detail of a valid motor tax disc.

RainyDay · 11-06-2015 04:02PM

smash wrote: »

Here's two specific questions for you because you're very pedantic. Answer them and explain please...

If I'm a fully licensed and insured driver who owns a car that has a valid NCT but has not paid motor tax, am I entitled to drive my car on a public road?

If I'm a fully licensed and insured driver who owns a car that has a valid NCT and up-to-date motor tax, am I entitled to drive my car on a public road?

seamus wrote: »

No and No. There is no absolute entitlement to drive on any public road, regardless of whether motor tax has been paid.

Motor tax is a requirement for operating a vehicle in a public place, but it does not confer an entitlement to do so.

Thanks for saving me the time, Seamus.

smash wrote: »

Owning a valid license entitles me to dive a vehicle for which the licence is valid:

"Whether you have a driving licence or a learner permit, you are only entitled to drive the category of vehicle for which the licence or permit has been issued."
Source

So I am entitled to drive the vehicle, however I've stated already that the entitlement for the car to be used on a public road lies in detail of a valid motor tax disc.

Now you're clutching at straws;
1- Citizens information is just that - information - not a legal position
2- It doesn't matter what licence you have or don't have - there is no legal entitlement to drive on the road created by motor tax.

Motor tax (like all taxes) is not a contract for service - you don't get anything specific for it. It is a tax. The hint is in the name.

So I guess that no matter how many times you are asked, you will not be able to produce any evidence of your mythical entitlement. You've dug a bit of a hole for yourself here. Time to stop digging.

ThisRegard · 11-06-2015 04:04PM

Fuel is required to make your car go. Therefore are you entitled to that fuel?

beauf · 11-06-2015 04:07PM

smash wrote: »

......I've stated already that the entitlement for the car to be used on a public road lies in detail of a valid motor tax disc.

Not on its own.

This is all irrelevant. If you are a cyclist, or a pedestrian, you don't have to pay tax to use the road.

smash · 11-06-2015 04:08PM

RainyDay wrote: »

Motor tax (like all taxes) is not a contract for service - you don't get anything specific for it. It is a tax. The hint is in the name.

I never said it's a contract for service. It's a fee for usage rights.

"Liability for motor tax arises when a vehicle is used in a public place/road."
https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/staticContent.do?page=faq

RainyDay wrote: »

So I guess that no matter how many times you are asked, you will not be able to produce any evidence of your mythical entitlement. You've dug a bit of a hole for yourself here. Time to stop digging.

Even the RSA used the word entitled when referring to categories of vehicles a license holder can drive. I've dug no hole.

RainyDay · 11-06-2015 04:11PM

smash wrote: »

I never said it's a contract for service. It's a fee for usage rights.

"Liability for motor tax arises when a vehicle is used in a public place/road."
https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/staticContent.do?page=faq

Where are these 'usage rights' specified in law?

smash wrote: »

Even the RSA used the word entitled when referring to categories of vehicles a license holder can drive. I've dug no hole.

You've hung your hat on this 'entitlement' thing - but we both know that it doesn't exist. There is no legal entitlement. So now you're calling it something else. You can call it Mildred if you like - it still doesn't make it real.

ThisRegard · 11-06-2015 04:15PM

smash wrote: »

I never said it's a contract for service. It's a fee for usage rights.

"Liability for motor tax arises when a vehicle is used in a public place/road."
https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/staticContent.do?page=faq

Even the RSA used the word entitled when referring to categories of vehicles a license holder can drive. I've dug no hole.

Driving licence is not motor tax.

And your quote says you're liable for tax if you use public roads. Not that road tax gives you an entitlement to use them.

scdublin · 11-06-2015 04:17PM

Yes, yes they should.

Saw this and thought of this thread: http://www.theladbible.com/articles/cyclist-gets-instant-karma-after-turning-to-have-a-go-at-driver?utm_source=lboz&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=lboz

Pinch Flat · 11-06-2015 04:17PM

Maybe someone with some specific legal knowledge could clarify, but my understanding is that everyone within Ireland has a Right to Travel enshrined in Common Law. This is a similar situation in the UK.

The difference being that to exercise this right in a motorized vehicle, you need to have paid tax and licensed the vehicle. Per the attached from the DVLA in the UK, which was in reply to a similar query to this thread.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/12619/response/29685/attach/2/Letter%20Mr%20Hinks.pdf

smash · 11-06-2015 04:19PM

RainyDay wrote: »

Where are these 'usage rights' specified in law?

Finance Act 1976, Section 73

73.—(1) Where a vehicle to which this Part applies is used, parked or otherwise kept at any time in a public place, if while the vehicle is being so used, parked or kept there is not fixed to and exhibited on the vehicle in accordance with section 5 (5) of the Act of 1920 a licence which is both issued in respect of the vehicle and is for the time being in force, then the person by whom the vehicle is so used, parked or kept at the time shall be guilty of an offence, and in addition to the person aforesaid, the person (if he is not the person aforesaid) who on the day on which the offence is committed is in relation to the vehicle the relevant person shall also be guilty of an offence.

That good enough for you?

RainyDay wrote: »

You've hung your hat on this 'entitlement' thing - but we both know that it doesn't exist. There is no legal entitlement. So now you're calling it something else. You can call it Mildred if you like - it still doesn't make it real.

Entitle: to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something
Entitlement gives you a right. In order to receive the right to use the vehicle on a public road, you must be compliant with the law. The law states that a vehicle must have a valid motor tax license if it is to be used.

Now. Want to drop this?

Chips Lovell · 11-06-2015 04:21PM

Regardless of your opinion on the matter, it's such an odd thing to get exercised about since it's completely academic. It's hard to imagine any government either extending motor tax to cover bicycles or banning bicycles from roads.

MadDog76 · 11-06-2015 04:22PM

scdublin wrote: »

Yes, yes they should.

Saw this and thought of this thread: http://www.theladbible.com/articles/cyclist-gets-instant-karma-after-turning-to-have-a-go-at-driver?utm_source=lboz&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=lboz

Now THAT'S funny!!!!!

CramCycle · 11-06-2015 04:25PM

smash wrote: »

I never said it's a contract for service. It's a fee for usage rights.

"Liability for motor tax arises when a vehicle is used in a public place/road."
https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/staticContent.do?page=faq

Even the RSA used the word entitled when referring to categories of vehicles a license holder can drive. I've dug no hole.

Your missing their point, if the council closes a road, you can't waltz up with a motor tax disc and say, actually, I am entitled. Or if a Garda stops you from driving along a road and says they are not letting people through, you can't just flash your motor tax disc and tell the Garda to jog on.

You require it to operate said vehicle on a public road or in a public place but you are not entitled to use said public space.

This is just pointless though.

Nothing to do with the thread in general, cyclists are not required to pay motor tax on their vehicle. Therefore there is nothing that makes their use of the road unless they breach the RTA or they are instructed not too be AGS or a council through a closed road order. The same thing for vehicles only they have other requirements.

Cyclists do not have an entitlement to use the road, neither do motorists, neither do cyclists who are motorists, motorists who are cyclists, they have permission to use the roads once certain guidelines are met. For cyclists, these are minimal and less cumbersome than for motorists.

This is for a range of reasons, they cause less damage, hence they draw less attention in regards the imposition of regulation. Motorists, particularly single occupancy vehicles (excluding delivery vehicles, as I know nothing about their benefits but am sure they have loads), cost the economy more in general. The more motorists on the road, the more they cost to maintain. Every crash/collision that results in a death costs the state about 1million euro from my understanding (although someone maybe able to get the exact figure as I read that last year), cyclists re not known for their huge number of deaths on the roads. There are many benefits to the state for keeping cars off the roads in built up areas, and reducing their dependency in more rural areas but since we have become a very car centric country we won't see any shift soon.

RainyDay · 11-06-2015 04:30PM

smash wrote: »

Finance Act 1976, Section 73

73.—(1) Where a vehicle to which this Part applies is used, parked or otherwise kept at any time in a public place, if while the vehicle is being so used, parked or kept there is not fixed to and exhibited on the vehicle in accordance with section 5 (5) of the Act of 1920 a licence which is both issued in respect of the vehicle and is for the time being in force, then the person by whom the vehicle is so used, parked or kept at the time shall be guilty of an offence, and in addition to the person aforesaid, the person (if he is not the person aforesaid) who on the day on which the offence is committed is in relation to the vehicle the relevant person shall also be guilty of an offence.

That good enough for you?

Entitle: to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something
Entitlement gives you a right. In order to receive the right to use the vehicle on a public road, you must be compliant with the law. The law states that a vehicle must have a valid motor tax license if it is to be used.

Now. Want to drop this?

Not really, no.

Let's just focus on the bolded bit. Yes, I agree with you 100% that the law states that a vehicle must have a valid motor tax license to be used.

Now let's get back to my question - where is the entitlement? An obligation to pay a tax is not an entitlement to use - it is an obligation to pay tax. You're pointing at an apple and telling me it is an orange.

Where is the entitlement (outside of your own imagination, that is)?

MadDog76 · 11-06-2015 04:32PM

To answer the Op's question ......... yes, of course cyclists should do a Theory Test ....... obviously.

Timberrrrrrrr · 11-06-2015 04:37PM

I don't think they should do a theory test but there should definitely be some mandatory road safety classes ( cycling/pedestrian/and motor for older kids) in schools. Start educating them young and hopefully the next generation might be able to show us older folk how it should be done.

smash · 11-06-2015 04:38PM

RainyDay wrote: »

Not really, no.

Let's just focus on the bolded bit. Yes, I agree with you 100% that the law states that a vehicle must have a valid motor tax license to be used.

Now let's get back to my question - where is the entitlement? An obligation to pay a tax is not an entitlement to use - it is an obligation to pay tax. You're pointing at an apple and telling me it is an orange.

Where is the entitlement (outside of your own imagination, that is)?

I honestly just don't care any more about this whole argument. It's nonsense. This all stemmed from you saying that you paid to use the roads through your taxes. You didn't. Your taxes paid solely for road construction and maintenance.

Cyclists should do a theory test!

Comments