Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

Qualitymark · 11-06-2015 08:53AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'm in college, have a part time job, pay rent etc. I'm broke basically, and have another 3 years of college ahead of me. Got my girlfriend pregnant and she's in a similar situation. Abortion wasn't an option.

That's absolutely grand, and I hope you have a lovely life together and enjoy your baby.

But really, your own life choices shouldn't be imposed on others who may not have the same beliefs.

It's a pity After Hours doesn't allow images to be posted. In this 2007 BBC piece about abortion across Europe http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6235557.stm the graphic illustration is interesting.

orubiru · 11-06-2015 11:09AM

Six Seasons wrote: »

Maybe someone else's choices shouldn't be imposed upon the unborn baby.

Maybe. Did you actually ready the article though?

As another poster said before, don't you wonder why other reasonable and rational people have a point of view that is different from yours?

Does the fact that most countries have abortion available on request before 12 weeks not make you think "hang on, there must be a reason why they've allowed that"?

You will notice, in the link that was posted, that "12 weeks" is mentioned a lot.

You will also notice medical consultation, counseling, authorization being mentioned a lot also. It's not like some crazed lunatics are encouraging these women to have abortions. They are getting advice and assistance from medical doctors.

So, I would ask "pro life" people to go and figure out the reasoning behind that "12 week" limit. How was the decision made to have abortion available on request up to 12 weeks but not after? Why did they decide to allow it before 12 weeks? Is that just an arbitrary line or are there medical and ethical reasons why it's considered OK up to 12 weeks?

I'd also ask what special insight you have on this that overrides the current medical opinion in a lot of those countries?

There is a massive difference between "believing" that life begins at the moment of conception and having an educated medical understanding of the reality of the situation.

It seems like people are willing to throw out the validity of medical knowledge because they've been suckered in by sensationalized catchphrases and slogans.

Medical professionals can explain to us that a zygote doesn't have a central nervous system. Medical professionals can explain to us when the neocortex develops. They didn't just come to this "12 weeks" decision on a whim.

So, we have the medical community offering up facts and insightful information. They are offering consultation, counseling and those are based on the accumulation of many thousands of hours worth of education and research.

On the other side of the argument we have comments like this

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You made your bed, so go and lie in it, instead of taking the cowards way out and trying to convince yourself it's "not alive" because it's not outside the womb. All your doing is fooling yourself, trying to justify murder to yourself, so you don't feel bad for killing it

and

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

I really would like to know what is going on in the brain of a person that thinks killing unborn babies is acceptable. As that's exactly what they are falling over themselves to promote.

Hm.

K-9 · 11-06-2015 11:33AM

Qualitymark wrote: »

That's absolutely grand, and I hope you have a lovely life together and enjoy your baby.

But really, your own life choices shouldn't be imposed on others who may not have the same beliefs.

It's a pity After Hours doesn't allow images to be posted. In this 2007 BBC piece about abortion across Europe http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6235557.stm the graphic illustration is interesting.

We really do make it somebody elses problem, and why?

I think we could so much more if we faced up to the problem here. I mean sending women abroad to take back their baby's remains in a box is barbaric, inhumane and unchristian.

And for what? To satisfy some puritanical feeling of self satisfaction and delusion that we don't allow abortion.

Facing up to the problem gives us much more hope of trying to reduce the number.

11-06-2015 11:46AM

K-9 wrote: »

I think we could so much more if we faced up to the problem here. I mean sending women abroad to take back their baby's remains in a box is barbaric, inhumane and unchristian.

.

If they gave enough of a damn about the baby to want to bring it back in a box and bury it they wouldn't be killing it in the first place.

Throwing it in the bin on their way out of the clinic would be a more fitting conclusion to the scenario.

seamus · 11-06-2015 11:47AM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

If they gave enough of a damn about the baby to want to bring it back in a box and bury it they wouldn't be killing it in the first place.

Throwing it in the bin on their way out of the clinic would be a more fitting conclusion to the scenario.

Let's just conveniently forget about those babies who are already functionally dead before the abortion, shall we?

The pro-life side have absolutely no humanity or morality. It's sickening.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 11:48AM

Six Seasons wrote: »

I'm in favour of abortion before twelve weeks, but I also acknowledge why someone would believe it's immoral to end the zygote's before then. There is no clear objective set of morals which we should choose to live by, they are very much subjective.

I always wonder - if such a person was caught in a fertility clinic which for some reason went on fire and they could either carry out a baby or a box full of 1000 frozen zygotes, would they choose the frozen zygotes? On the basis that they'd be saving 1000 lives rather than one?

tipparetops · 11-06-2015 11:51AM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

If they gave enough of a damn about the baby to want to bring it back in a box and bury it they wouldn't be killing it in the first place.

Throwing it in the bin on their way out of the clinic would be a more fitting conclusion to the scenario.

Pity your mom did not throw you in a bin.

11-06-2015 11:56AM

seamus wrote: »

Let's just conveniently forget about those babies who are already functionally dead before the abortion, shall we?

The pro-life side have absolutely no humanity or morality. It's sickening.

Lets not forget the fact of the matter is that in the vast majority of cases people are going to have abortions in the UK because they dont want the baby not because there is anything worng with it. I would not have an issue with an abortion being carried out here in an instance where the child has no chance of survival, its a whole different ball game to abortion as a form of contraception.

orubiru · 11-06-2015 11:57AM

Six Seasons wrote: »

I'm in favour of abortion before twelve weeks, but I also acknowledge why someone would believe it's immoral to end the zygote's before then. There is no clear objective set of morals which we should choose to live by, they are very much subjective.

I agree with you completely.

I am also happy to acknowledge why someone believes it is immoral. I would, however, encourage them to look at the opposing point of view in favour of just ranting about "killing" and "murder".

In Ireland there is no choice. At the moment choice is being denied and it seems that many of those who would deny choice refuse to consider the reasons why other nations do things differently.

K-9 · 11-06-2015 11:58AM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

If they gave enough of a damn about the baby to want to bring it back in a box and bury it they wouldn't be killing it in the first place.<br />
<br />
Throwing it in the bin on their way out of the clinic would be a more fitting conclusion to the scenario.

<br />
<br />
How touching your concern for women, and foetuses who are unviable. Here you have it folks, a psychopathic post that shows up clearly what you think.

orubiru · 11-06-2015 12:06PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

If they gave enough of a damn about the baby to want to bring it back in a box and bury it they wouldn't be killing it in the first place.

Throwing it in the bin on their way out of the clinic would be a more fitting conclusion to the scenario.

OK but this is just judgement of people who have abortions. You are just appealing to emotion "You don't give a damn about babies! You want to kill them!"

You are not providing a logical or reasoned argument.

Anyone who cares to inform or educate themselves can clearly see that an abortion before 12 weeks is in no way comparable to "killing babies". This is understood by most rational adults.

Would it be helpful for you if a doctor explained to you why an abortion is not the same as killing a baby? Or, are you intending to just keep going with that mantra regardless?

Samaris · 11-06-2015 12:11PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

If they gave enough of a damn about the baby to want to bring it back in a box and bury it they wouldn't be killing it in the first place.

Throwing it in the bin on their way out of the clinic would be a more fitting conclusion to the scenario.

See previous comments about twelve weeks.

Whatever you may think, it is very very rarely an easy decision to make. To impose your disdain, expressed in those sorts of words..nggh. It certainly suggests to me that you've rarely been confronted with such an awful decision.

A person who has been raped, who feels the consequences of the rapist's actions taking over their body for nine months, and taking over their life after.

A child under the age of rightful consent, through their own choices or not.

A person at risk from pregnancy, forced by the beliefs of you and those like you, to risk her own life for an accident.

A person who knows that she cannot bring this child to term, that the child will die before it's born, or will be born with terrible issues and live a short life of pain. As far as you and those like you seem to be concerned, they must carry the child until they miscarry, despite the pain and horror.

A person who knows they cannot afford to bring up a child, that took their precautions and the precautions failed.

You may agree with some or all of the above, or you may agree with none of them, but at base, it is not your bodily autonomy. And in many of these cases, it is still a deeply upsetting and traumatic experience, not helped at all by having to leave their own country in shame to seek help elsewhere. Obviously many people DO give that damn.

I think that question of would you save the live baby or one thousand zygotes from a burning building is rather applicable to you! It's certainly worth the consideration. It should, under the ideals of a zygote being a person, be a no-brainer, hm?

captbarnacles · 11-06-2015 12:21PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'm in college, have a part time job, pay rent etc. I'm broke basically, and have another 3 years of college ahead of me. Got my girlfriend pregnant and she's in a similar situation. Abortion wasn't an option. If someone conceives a baby (and unless they are raped or fatal foetal abnormality etc), they are as good as murderers in my eye's. It's functioning to some degree from the minute it's conceived, hence alive. You made your bed, so go and lie in it, instead of taking the cowards way out and trying to convince yourself it's "not alive" because it's not outside the womb. All your doing is fooling yourself, trying to justify murder to yourself, so you don't feel bad for killing it

You sound angry at the decision you made and that other people who are not bound by your morals can make a a different decision.

11-06-2015 12:24PM

K-9 wrote: »

How touching your concern for women, and foetuses who are unviable.

I already addressed this above.

K-9 wrote: »

Here you have it folks, a psychopathic post that shows up clearly what you think.

Not sure how you are defining the word "psychopathic" if you are using it to refer to my post.

Samaris wrote: »

A person who has been raped, who feels the consequences of the rapist's actions taking over their body for nine months, and taking over their life after: I'm still undecided on this one

A child under the age of rightful consent, through their own choices or not: Shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion if they made the choice to have sex, otherwise falls into the above undecided bracket

A person at risk from pregnancy, forced by the beliefs of you and those like you, to risk her own life for an accident. If the threat to the mothers life is extremely high then allowed, as it already is

A person who knows that she cannot bring this child to term, that the child will die before it's born, or will be born with terrible issues and live a short life of pain. As far as you and those like you seem to be concerned, they must carry the child until they miscarry, despite the pain and horror. I'd allow it in this instance

A person who knows they cannot afford to bring up a child, that took their precautions and the precautions failed. Definitely no to abortion in this instance, there are other options if they really really dont want the child after its born.

Samaris wrote: »

I think that question of would you save the live baby or one thousand zygotes from a burning building is rather applicable to you! It's certainly worth the consideration. It should, under the ideals of a zygote being a person, be a no-brainer, hm?

A poor analogy as there is a massive difference between a zygote in a box and one developing inside a woman.

Samaris · 11-06-2015 12:35PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Lets not forget the fact of the matter is that in the vast majority of cases people are going to have abortions in the UK because they dont want the baby not because there is anything worng with it. I would not have an issue with an abortion being carried out here in an instance where the child has no chance of survival, its a whole different ball game to abortion as a form of contraception.

Oh really, how often do you think that is applicable? There are some people that use the morning after pill as a form of contraception, and that's rather foolish in and of itself (whether or not it's abortion is up to whoever's speaking at any given moment, I suppose!) But I can assure you that no-one (bar perhaps a couple of disturbed people) would use abortions at 12 weeks +, or even 12 weeks- as a form of contraception. Abortion isn't exactly painfree or easy on the body as is. There are definitely more sensible methods out there. Abortions are emergency procedures.

Edit: I see your response! Bear with me, I'm editing this post in answer ^^

Edit to the edit: Rightie. OK, well, I'm glad at least that you aren't 100% against in all cases. There is a question of what age should the child be to consider it entirely her fault though. A nine year old? Twelve? Fourteen? Fifteen? There's a reason we consider a child to be under the age of consent, and having a separate rule for how young they can be and still be forced to carry the result is questionable, morally and legally. Purely legally, if the other party was over the age of consent, then it was rape in statuary terms.

The threat to them other's life - well, Savita Halappanavar didn't benefit much by that! I grant that there are always tragic exceptions, but the law in that case seems to be dubiously written in the extreme.

Alrightie, I accept your issues with the last case, opinions differ.

As for the question, you're right, it is a poor analogy, but not because the zygote developing in the woman is different from the frozen zygote. They are both potential life, not life under law. But it is a different thing from a living, breathing baby who can live without the mother as life-support. Still, it is an interesting question to consider, and it gave me a moment's pause for thought.

Gunslinger92 · 11-06-2015 12:46PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

A poor analogy as there is a massive difference between a zygote in a box and one developing inside a woman.

You're dead serious aren't you...

11-06-2015 02:01PM

Samaris wrote: »

Oh really, how often do you think that is applicable? There are some people that use the morning after pill as a form of contraception, and that's rather foolish in and of itself (whether or not it's abortion is up to whoever's speaking at any given moment, I suppose!)

I would think that in the majority of cases that it is done as a choice not as a necessity for health reasons or even in the case of rape etc.

I would not consider the morning after pill abortion as it simply isn't and it is a very sensible approach to immediately seek it if you think something went wrong with contraception or you didn't use it for whatever reason. That's not so its not foolish if people are more or less planning to use it in advance as a form of contraception.

Akrasia · 11-06-2015 02:06PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'm in college, have a part time job, pay rent etc. I'm broke basically, and have another 3 years of college ahead of me. Got my girlfriend pregnant and she's in a similar situation. Abortion wasn't an option. If someone conceives a baby (and unless they are raped or fatal foetal abnormality etc), they are as good as murderers in my eye's. It's functioning to some degree from the minute it's conceived, hence alive. You made your bed, so go and lie in it, instead of taking the cowards way out and trying to convince yourself it's "not alive" because it's not outside the womb. All your doing is fooling yourself, trying to justify murder to yourself, so you don't feel bad for killing it

Was abortion just 'not an option' for you, or did your girlfriend have any say in the matter

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 02:08PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

I would not consider the morning after pill abortion as it simply isn't and it is a very sensible approach to immediately seek it if you think something went wrong with contraception or you didn't use it for whatever reason. That's not so its not foolish if people are more or less planning to use it in advance as a form of contraception.

So you wouldn't consider a zygote inside a woman's body to be a growing baby after all, then?

What age does it have to be to qualify, in your view?

Varik · 11-06-2015 02:10PM

orubiru wrote: »

Are we gonna say "she gave consent when she decided to have sex"?

It's how it works for men.

11-06-2015 02:22PM

Shenshen wrote: »

So you wouldn't consider a zygote inside a woman's body to be a growing baby after all, then?

What age does it have to be to qualify, in your view?

There is no zygote of the morning after pill has done its job, it prevents it from forming.

_Whimsical_ · 11-06-2015 02:38PM

seamus wrote: »

Let's just conveniently forget about those babies who are already functionally dead before the abortion, shall we?

The pro-life side have absolutely no humanity or morality. It's sickening.

This sort of generalisation is really annoying. I know you were responding to an emotive post but it's the opinion of the individual you are addressing, making sweeping generalisations about everyone with an opinion on that spectrum is not fair. Lots of people who are pro-life or uncomfortable with wholesale abortion do not believe that a mother should be forced to continue with a pregnancy that will not result in a live baby, nor do they believe that a woman should be forced in circumstances where it will endanger her or damage her health. It's not a compassionless stance for the vast majority of people.

Wild generalisations and mud slinging only polarize debate and make it useless whereas genuine conversation leads to informing people on both sides and might result in the best solution in the long run.

In the case of the Life of the Mother Amendment almost no genuine consideration was given to the appalling potential of that legislation to result in a baby being born early and being seriously disabled by that early birth and essentially orphaned in the case of a late-term termination of pregnancy. Had there been more credible consideration given to that possibility then I think better, more finely tuned legislation with clearer guidelines might have prevented that happening in the case of Miss Y. As it stands instead while I have full sympathy for that girl who endured a nightmare, I am horrified that the baby is never mentioned though his consultant has said he'll be gravely ill and never live a normal life,most likely without an adoptive family as his disability might require institutional care. His case rather than hers is one of the most horrific cases of state negligence. I think that was a case of poorly drafted legislation allowed to pass in a climate where the debate was stymied into polarized sides of pro-choice v.s pro-life, had people actually paid attention to the finer detail and not just saw it as a win for one side or the other, we might not as a nation have butchered a person's entire life.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 02:42PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

There is no zygote of the morning after pill has done its job, it prevents it from forming.

Not really. It prevents the zygote from embedding itself in the womb, and from there grow into an embryo.

K-9 · 11-06-2015 02:50PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

I already addressed this above.

Not sure how you are defining the word "psychopathic" if you are using it to refer to my post.

A poor analogy as there is a massive difference between a zygote in a box and one developing inside a woman.

True enough,.a narcissistic post would be a better description.

11-06-2015 02:55PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Not really. It prevents the zygote from embedding itself in the womb, and from there grow into an embryo.

It prevents the egg from being released from ovary.

_Whimsical_ · 11-06-2015 02:59PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Not really. It prevents the zygote from embedding itself in the womb, and from there grow into an embryo.

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

It prevents the egg from being released from ovary.

Alot of them do both of those things.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 03:00PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

It prevents the egg from being released from ovary.

It does no such thing. That would be entirely pointless anyway, as chances are that there already is an ovum in the fallopian tube. An ovum takes 5 days on average to reach the womb, and can be fertilised at any point during this time. If it was only about to be released, it would have little chance to be fertilised, as the sperm usually doesn't survive quite that long.

With all the internet at your disposal I would suggest you go an calculate a few facts before you form an opinion.

kylith · 11-06-2015 03:02PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

If they gave enough of a damn about the baby to want to bring it back in a box and bury it they wouldn't be killing it in the first place.

Throwing it in the bin on their way out of the clinic would be a more fitting conclusion to the scenario.

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Lets not forget the fact of the matter is that in the vast majority of cases people are going to have abortions in the UK because they dont want the baby not because there is anything worng with it. I would not have an issue with an abortion being carried out here in an instance where the child has no chance of survival, its a whole different ball game to abortion as a form of contraception.

But the point is that you never stopped to consider why someone who had had an abortion might want to bring the body home. To consider why someone would do something apparently never crossed your mind; you were too eager to find ways to point at them and shout 'Look! Look! Look how evil this person is!' and I'm willing to bet that a lot of your opinion on abortion is formed by that mindset.

You're 'undecided' as to whether a woman who has been raped shouldn't have to be forced to have that rape extended by 9 months and have another traumatic experience because you don't seem to have the capacity to put yourself in that woman's shoes and really try to feel what she must be feeling, or the 16 year old who 'decided' to have sex because she was afraid her boyfriend would dump her and whose Catholic school carried out only basic sex ed, or the couple who already have 4 children and the father lost his job and now they're on the dole and already having to get food parcels from the SVdP. All you do is proclaim 'Tough sht!' and call them murderers.

11-06-2015 03:06PM

Shenshen wrote: »

It does no such thing. .

Well it does, you obviously need to do some research.

Shenshen · 11-06-2015 03:07PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Well it does, you obviously need to do some research.

I have before I posted. Wikipedia will give you all the details you need, in case you don't know where to begin.

Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

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