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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #1112
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    K4t wrote: »
    Many of the themes of the tv shows and movies we watch can be traced back to Shakespeare's works, and much of the vernacular we use everyday was coined by the Bard.

    So much of the English we use in Ireland can be traced to Irish, many themes in Irish theatre and arts can be traced to works in the Irish language etc...


  • #1113
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    psinno wrote: »
    Originally Posted by Dughorm
    Mandatory irish ensures equal opportunities for everyone to engage with the language whether they want to or not !

    FTFY

    And its the same for English and Maths for all intents and purposes.

    Irish shouldn't be the preserve of the few, neither should poetry or geometry - it's for everyone, now that's an education I can believe in.


  • #1114
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Dughorm wrote: »
    So much of the English we use in Ireland can be traced to Irish, many themes in Irish theatre and arts can be traced to works in the Irish language etc...
    Of course. But we're talking about the most commonly spoken language in the world v the historic language of Ireland - they're simply nowhere near of equal importance, especially considering practically nobody speaks Irish in this country in daily life outside of a few very small, isolated areas. English is our national language. If you really cared about Irish culture past and present, and the future of the country, you'd be advocating that history be made compulsory for the leaving cert; not forcing everyone to learn a language that is simply no longer spoken by the vast majority of Irish people.


  • #1115
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Dughorm wrote: »
    So much of the English we use in Ireland can be traced to Irish, many themes in Irish theatre and arts can be traced to works in the Irish language etc...

    Indeed, which gives the English language a unique flavour all of its own here in Ireland namely "Hiberno English" which is English with an Irish twist. And that's as close as most of us want to get to the Irish language itself, which is at the best of times, a dusty auld bridge too far for most Irish people in the modern era . . . .


  • #1116
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Irish shouldn't be the preserve of the few
    It should if only the few gives a shyte about it.


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  • #1117
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Dughorm wrote: »
    And its the same for English and Maths for all intents and purposes.

    Irish shouldn't be the preserve of the few, neither should poetry or geometry - it's for everyone, now that's an education I can believe in.
    As long as you understand this bit, and accept that the vast majority of people would disagree with you that Irish is in any way as important as Maths or English. You must even notice that the education you believe in is in the minority here on boards. A small sample, perhaps about as small as the amount of people speaking Irish right now..


  • #1118
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    K4t wrote: »
    It's not proof of anything of the sort. It is proof that many parents send their kids to a Gaelscoil to get an advantage in Irish, or because the school might have a better reputation than other schools nearby, or because they place importance on their kids knowing the Irish language. That's their choice, but it should be a CHOICE.
    So this. Gaelscoils do appear to result in good grades, but if this happens "because of Irish" is entirely unproven. There's other factors (catchment area, parental interest in learning in general, historic good grades leading to competition for places etc) that could all be just as important.


  • #1119
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    K4t wrote: »
    Of course. But we're talking about the most commonly spoken language in the world v the historic language of Ireland - they're simply nowhere near of equal importance, especially considering practically nobody speaks Irish in this country in daily life outside of a few very small, isolated areas. English is our national language. If you really cared about Irish culture past and present, and the future of the country, you'd be advocating that history be made compulsory for the leaving cert; not forcing everyone to learn a language that is simply no longer spoken by the vast majority of Irish people.

    That's not correct - English is one of our national languages, Irish is the other one. I didn't think English was the most commonly spoken language in the world, isn't it the 4th or so?

    We should learn the Shakespeare, all of us, it is good. But so should we learn the Irish, which is also good.

    I don't agree with your statement about advocating history as a compulsory subject - history is not a national language, it is wrapped in ideology. We've had enough compulsory ideology in our schools in my opinion.


  • #1120
    Bayberry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 707 ✭✭✭Bayberry


    K4t wrote: »
    Many of the themes of the tv shows and movies we watch can be traced back to Shakespeare's works, and much of the vernacular we use everyday was coined by the Bard. It's not so much about the act itself of finding the volume and area of the sphere and triangle respectively, but rather the knowing that they exist, what they are, their uses etc. That knowledge is important and valuable.
    Both of those arguments apply to the learning of Irish too. Indeed rather more of vernacular in use in Ireland (which includes placenames!) comes from Irish than from Shakespeare, and I seriously doubt that any of the TV shows and movies that are loosely based on Shakespeare's work are in any way less enjoyable/exciting/engaging to people who have never studied Shakespeare than to those who got an A1 in LC English.
    It's not proof of anything of the sort. It is proof that many parents send their kids to a Gaelscoil to get an advantage in Irish, or because the school might have a better reputation than other schools nearby, or because they place importance on their kids knowing the Irish language.
    Of course it's proof that people who claim learning Irish is a waste of time are talking through the collective chips on their shoulders! If learning Irish was in any way a real barrier to learning anything else, pupils of Gaelscoilleanna would be falling behind pupils at other schools.

    That's the inconvenient truth for those who are opposed to the teaching of Irish in schools.


  • #1121
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    K4t wrote: »
    As long as you understand this bit, and accept that the vast majority of people would disagree with you that Irish is in any way as important as Maths or English. You must even notice that the education you believe in is in the minority here on boards. A small sample, perhaps about as small as the amount of people speaking Irish right now..

    Are you reaching out for the confirmation bias that one of the posters explained in detail a few pages ago?


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  • #1122
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Bayberry wrote: »
    Of course it's proof that people who claim learning Irish is a waste of time are talking through the collective chips on their shoulders! If learning Irish was in any way a real barrier to learning anything else, pupils of Gaelscoilleanna would be falling behind pupils at other schools.

    That's the inconvenient truth for those who are opposed to the teaching of Irish in schools.
    The truth is Gaelscoils get good grades.
    The truth is also that there's no proof this is due to the pupils speaking Irish. There are other factors I listed which you are studiously ignoring.


  • #1123
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The truth is Gaelscoils get good grades.
    The truth is also that there's no proof this is due to the pupils speaking Irish. There are other factors I listed which you are studiously ignoring.

    Isn't that great though - we should be celebrating that students get good grades in public schools that are taught through the means of Irish.


  • #1124
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Isn't that great though - we should be celebrating that students get good grades in public schools that are taught through the means of Irish.
    Despite the fact there is no evidence they get those grades because they speak Irish. No randomly allocated study has ever shown learning a second language was beneficial to overall student grades.


  • #1125
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Aren't there extra marks given to those who take state examinations through Irish?


  • #1126
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Aren't there extra marks given to those who take state examinations through Irish?
    They sure do...
    https://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=ca&sc=im
    Who knows, maybe their grades are pitiful without this artificial bias?


  • #1127
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Despite the fact there is no evidence they get those grades because they speak Irish. No randomly allocated study has ever shown learning a second language was beneficial to overall student grades.

    But why would you expect learning a second language to be beneficial to overall grades? that doesn't make sense. Learning Irish won't necessarily make one better at maths, chemistry or art, who is claiming that?

    As far as I can see, the argument isn't "they get good grades because they speak Irish", rather "they get good grades and they speak Irish"... and fair play to them :)


  • #1128
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    As far as I can see, the argument isn't "they get good grades because they speak Irish", rather "they get good grades and they speak Irish"... and fair play to them :)
    They get good grades: well done. Who knows if they needed a free leg up to match the rest of students.
    And they speak Irish: so what?


  • #1129
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    They get good grades: well done. Who knows if they needed a free leg up to match the rest of students.
    And they speak Irish: so what?

    Exactly!

    They speak Irish in a Gaelscoil or because they are native speakers. They learn English and Irish to leaving cert like the rest of us. Learning Irish doesn't disadvantage!


  • #1130
    Un Croissant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,052 ✭✭✭Un Croissant


    People that say you need to speak Irish to be Irish baffle me. If anything, Irish is a separate and isolated aspect of Irish culture, rarely being combined with another aspect.

    A person can enjoy 99% or Irish culture through English. The sport, literature, history, music and art are all accessible in English. Irish isn't necessary to appreciate these things. In fact, many of these things must be accessed through English.

    Irish is only a pillar of irishness, not the foundation. In the same way that you're still Irish if you don't like Joyce, or the GAA or you don't want the north back, you're still Irish if you don't speak Irish.

    I'm not sure the same applies for places like Germany, or France. Where a working knowledge of the language is essential to experience the country.


  • #1131
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Exactly!

    They speak Irish in a Gaelscoil or because they are native speakers. They learn English and Irish to leaving cert like the rest of us. Learning Irish doesn't disadvantage!
    But they get unfair free bonus marks. How do you know it doesn't?


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  • #1132
    Aineoil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    "A candidate who answers in Irish at the written examination in the various subjects as set out below may be given bonus marks in addition to the marks gained in the subject."

    "may be" It's not automatic they get extra marks.


  • #1133
    323
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭323


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The truth is Gaelscoils get good grades.
    The truth is also that there's no proof this is due to the pupils speaking Irish. There are other factors I listed which you are studiously ignoring.

    Agree. Honestly think its in spite of the pupils being taught through Irish. Know a couple of cases where kids immediatly did much better when taken out of Gaelscoils. Nephew had been all through national school to fourth year in secondary. He reckoned everything got so much easier and clearer, all subjects went up a grade.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



  • #1134
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Un Croissant wrote: »
    People that say you need to speak Irish to be Irish baffle me. If anything, Irish is a separate and isolated aspect of Irish culture, rarely being combined with another aspect.

    A person can enjoy 99% or Irish culture through English. The sport, literature, history, music and art are all accessible in English. Irish isn't necessary to appreciate these things. In fact, many of these things must be accessed through English.

    Irish is only a pillar of irishness, not the foundation. In the same way that you're still Irish if you don't like Joyce, or the GAA or you don't want the north back, you're still Irish if you don't speak Irish.

    I'm not sure the same applies for places like Germany, or France. Where a working knowledge of the language is essential to experience the country.

    A lot of common sense here.

    Take a country like Belgium. Two languages at loggerheads. French is a pillar in Belgian life but you're still Belgian if you only speak Flemish!

    However, a respect for both languages, both communities, both identities, helps keep the nation united (just about!)


  • #1135
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Aineoil wrote: »
    "A candidate who answers in Irish at the written examination in the various subjects as set out below may be given bonus marks in addition to the marks gained in the subject."

    "may be" It's not automatic they get extra marks.

    What do they have to do to get them? I don't see any restrictions listed apart from the fact you can not get a grade above 100%


  • #1136
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,112 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I don't agree with your statement about advocating history as a compulsory subject - history is not a national language, it is wrapped in ideology. We've had enough compulsory ideology in our schools in my opinion.

    History should be interpreted in an unbiased and dispassionate way, no ideology.

    It's fine to have it as an option in 2nd level imho, and that's coming from a history addict.


  • #1137
    FunLover18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Is that your opinion on English and Maths as well, which for all intents and purposes are mandatory as well?

    English and Maths are not on the same level as Irish though, are they? When the state removes the obligation for students to study Irish for LC then we can have a proper discussion on the merits of all 3, but as a matter of fact; yes I do feel students should be free to choose all LC subjects, as I think this thread has proved the merits of studying different subjects can be very subjective.

    How do English and Maths fit into your rounded education?


  • #1138
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    FunLover18 wrote: »
    English and Maths are not on the same level as Irish though, are they?

    Which levels are these? Who defines them?

    FunLover18 wrote: »
    How do English and Maths fit into your rounded education?

    Very well, there is a need for compulsory Maths and English as well as Irish in my opinion. Both national languages covered, the language of science covered with plenty of choice left over for the student to specialise or to embrace a variety of subject areas.


  • #1139
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,262 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Bayberry wrote: »
    The only valid argument for not making every single National school in the country a Gaelscoil is the resource issue - we just don't have the teachers.
    That and parents have a constitutional right with regards to what kind of school they wish to send their children to.

    I think the success of Gaelscoils shows that there is enough interest in the language to start making it voluntary for students at some levels.
    The phrase "if you love it set it free" comes to mind.

    That an people who support keeping Irish mandatory come across as very authoritarian, in a world where we are trying to give people more freedom in their lives.


  • #1140
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    But they get unfair free bonus marks. How do you know it doesn't?

    Those bonus marks aren't unfair by the way. They are equal opportunity bonus marks. It is open to all students to do examinations through Irish should they so choose.


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  • #1141
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    That an people who support keeping Irish mandatory come across as very authoritarian, in a world where we are trying to give people more freedom in their lives.

    You support all subjects being made optional in this libertarian spirit I assume?


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