Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

10-06-2015 10:52AM

Why can't we all just get a long??? Abortions for those who want them, life as normal for the rest of us. If your not directly impacted by someones decision to have an abortion I propose you continue to mind your own business and let them get on with it. It should be legal here because people have the right to make their own decisions irrespective of what other people think is morally correct.

orubiru · 10-06-2015 10:53AM

dashcamdanny wrote: »

You make childbirth sound like a complete horror story.

Its not . I seen my 2 children brought into the world , it was tough . One need sectioned after a 24 hours of labour.

But guess what. My wife was grand after. None of these night terrors and flashback you speak of.

This is a pretty disgraceful response to be honest.

The poster has raised some pretty valid points and a easy Google search does indeed reveal that childbirth and the aftermath can be a pretty horrific experience for a lot of women (not all).

Your response is basically "sure, it'll be grand".

So what if the birth of your first child was absolutely horrific and your wife didn't want to go through that again but, due to circumstances, she got pregnant. Would you just say "sure, it'll be grand, you're having the kid whether you like it or not"?

Why not just allow her to decide whether she wants to have a kid or not? It's not that difficult to even come to terms with. She can potentially go through a horrific experience or she can choose not to. Why can't it just be her decision? Why can't you just offer support but also allow her to make her own decision?

Now, that does not mean I am saying that childbirth is always horrific or damaging but sometimes it can be. Should we be forcing women to go through with it or should we give them the choice?

There's nothing wrong with being pro-life. There's something wrong with being stubborn and completely disregarding the wishes, and potential suffering, of another human being just because your opinions do not line up with the reality of the situation.

In a future Ireland where abortion is legal it will still be possible for "pro life" groups to offer support and care to women who are thinking about an abortion. You can advise them and offer support and maybe they will ultimately decide not to abort.

Nobody is pro abortion. We won't see adverts on TV encouraging women to go out and terminate pregnancies. Nobody is saying that women will be forced to have abortions. Hell, most women probably wouldn't even want an abortion. It's not really relevant. All we are saying is "lets give each individual the ability to decide for themselves". Can you explain what's wrong with that?

Personally, if my partner was pregnant I would not want her to have an abortion. However, if she expressed genuine fears of potential pain and suffering then I would talk to her about it. If we couldn't get over that and if she really didn't want to be pregnant then I would support her and we'd travel to the UK.

It's her reproductive system and it's her choice. The fact that there are folks out there who, when presented with real fears and a real desire to not have a kid, would just say to a woman "sure, you'll be fine, just get on with it" is pretty disturbing.

10-06-2015 11:24AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why can't we all just get a long??? Abortions for those who want them, life as normal for the rest of us. If your not directly impacted by someones decision to have an abortion I propose you continue to mind your own business and let them get on with it.

A random persons decision to murder another person doesn't have any direct impact on me, doesn't mean we will see murdering being legalized anytime soon.

orubiru · 10-06-2015 11:24AM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Think people are getting ahead of themselves with the SSM referendum thinking one on abortion on demand would pass easily. Thankfully there is a lot of people in Ireland who value life and I don't see any chance at all that abortion will be voted in.

We already have laws to to allow it in certain circumstances when it really is needed, I'd like to think we will continue for many many years not allowing babies to be killed as a form of contraception like in the UK.

Why would you phrase it like that? "allowing babies to be killed as a form of contraception"

It's a serious question, why have you phrased it this way?

Let's say a woman in Dublin who has a great education, great career, loads of opportunities and loads of cash coming in, likes to go out and get laid and have a good time. She makes an error in judgement or has a lapse or an "accident" with her choice of contraception and gets pregnant. So she just hops on a flight to the UK and deals with it.

Do you feel resentment towards this woman? If you do then why? If you don't then why not just give all women in Ireland the same opportunity that she has?

What about young people who have little or no sex education? If a 16 year old girl gets pregnant, and she REALLY doesn't want to have a baby, should society really just turn round and say "too bad, actions have consequences, learn your lesson"? Is it not preferable to have her go to a doctor, get sound medical advice, and then make an educated decision based on that?

When someone says they are against "allowing babies to be killed as a form of contraception" this comes across as more of a judgement of people who do not plan to get pregnant yet find themselves in that situation. You might as well say "we shouldn't allow sluts to have casual sex".

Why should we force women to have a kid they don't want?

Why not give them the choice and allow "pro life" people to offer support and advice to women who might then decide that they will have the kid anyway?

orubiru · 10-06-2015 11:26AM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

A random persons decision to murder another person doesn't have any direct impact on me, doesn't mean we will see murdering being legalized anytime soon.

Because abortion and murder are the same thing, right?

Are you even considering the criticisms of your point of view?

10-06-2015 11:32AM

orubiru wrote: »

Why would you phrase it like that? "allowing babies to be killed as a form of contraception"

It's a serious question, why have you phrased it this way?

Let's say a woman in Dublin who has a great education, great career, loads of opportunities and loads of cash coming in, likes to to out and get laid and have a good time. She makes an error in judgement or has a lapse or an "accident" with her choice of contraception and gets pregnant. So she just hops on a flight to the UK and deals with it.

Do you feel resentment towards this woman? If you do then why? If you don't then why not just give all women in Ireland the same opportunity that she has?

I'd find her decision disgusting and disgraceful. There is no way a person in the above situation should be allowed to have an abortion.

orubiru wrote: »

What about young people who have little or no sex education? If a 16 year old girl gets pregnant, and she REALLY doesn't want to have a baby, should society really just turn round and say "too bad, actions have consequences, learn your lesson"?

Precisely this, she should take precautions or else don't have sex. Its not buying a dog we are taking about here its the life of a child.

10-06-2015 11:33AM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

A random persons decision to murder another person doesn't have any direct impact on me, doesn't mean we will see murdering being legalized anytime soon.

Just to help clarify this for you:

MURDER:

a. The killing of another person without justification or excuse, especially the crime of killing a person with malice aforethought or with recklessness manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.
b. An instance of such killing.
2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
3. A flock of crows.

ABORTION:

a. Induced termination of a pregnancy with destruction of the embryo or fetus.
b. Any of various procedures that result in the termination of a pregnancy. Also called induced abortion.
2. See miscarriage.
3. Cessation of normal growth, especially of an organ or other body part, prior to full development or maturation.
4. The premature ending or abandonment of an undertaking.
5. Something that is regarded as poorly made or done.

Hopefully you now understand the difference between abortion and murder.

The Corinthian · 10-06-2015 11:33AM

orubiru wrote: »

Let's say a woman in Dublin who has a great education, great career, loads of opportunities and loads of cash coming in, likes to to out and get laid and have a good time. She makes an error in judgement or has a lapse or an "accident" with her choice of contraception and gets pregnant. So she just hops on a flight to the UK and deals with it.

Do you feel resentment towards this woman? If you do then why? If you don't then why not just give all women in Ireland the same opportunity that she has?

Would you say the same of a man who finds himself becoming a father or feel that he should live by the consequences of his 'error in judgment'?

orubiru · 10-06-2015 11:44AM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

I'd find her decision disgusting and disgraceful. There is no way a person in the above situation should be allowed to have an abortion.

Why? She should be allowed to live her life how SHE wants, not how YOU want.

It's like you are not really looking at this issue in a rational or logical way. You are making judgements on people who have unplanned pregnancies and saying "too bad, you should have lived differently". The "disgusting and disgraceful" comment exposes this.

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Precisely this, she should take precautions or else don't have sex. Its not buying a dog we are taking about here its the life of a child.

And what if she (our hypothetical 16 year old) was not given enough advice or education? What if she didn't understand the need for precautions or she just made a mistake with implementing said precautions? No second chances at all? That's it? You have a baby at 16, your opportunities in life will be greatly reduced, should have been more careful or just not had sex?

The fact that you say "or else don't have sex" is interesting. Again, it seems more like judgement than actual consideration of the points being made.

c_man · 10-06-2015 11:51AM

seamus wrote: »

Nope. The only amendment being proposed is a repeal of the 8th amendment, which is a far cry from a referendum on "abortions on demand".

Of course, don't let the facts get in the way of your hysterical nonsense.

Would the repeal of the 8th also need a lot of legislative change? I really don't know. If the amendment was gone tomorrow, what would the legal status of abortion actually be?

orubiru · 10-06-2015 11:56AM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Would you say the same of a man who finds himself becoming a father or feel that he should live by the consequences of his 'error in judgment'?

I'd say that's a more complicated situation and maybe not one for this thread.

Clearly a man cannot force a woman to have an abortion, that's absurd. I'd say even applying a lot of pressure to make her decide to have one is wrong also.

However, there should be some legal way, only in the early stages of pregnancy, for a man to say "I do not consent to this" and so he would not be forced to live with the consequences of having a kid he did not want. That is something that should be dealt with on a case by case basis though.

I assume that sperm donors have some kind of legal protection? I wouldn't know enough about it to be honest.

PopePalpatine · 10-06-2015 12:10PM

c_man wrote: »

Would the repeal of the 8th also need a lot of legislative change? I really don't know. If the amendment was gone tomorrow, what would the legal status of abortion actually be?

The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act would still be the law between the repeal/replacement of the 8th amendment and the enactment of any legislation to replace it.

10-06-2015 12:35PM

orubiru wrote: »

Why? She should be allowed to live her life how SHE wants, not how YOU want.

It's like you are not really looking at this issue in a rational or logical way. You are making judgements on people who have unplanned pregnancies and saying "too bad, you should have lived differently". The "disgusting and disgraceful" comment exposes this.

I am looking at it in a totally rational way. I do not believe that abortion should be allowed (except for very exception circumstances). Its a perfectly valid opinion to hold. Accidents can happen but people need to be accept that if they do they need to live with it.

There are many rules and laws that govern the way we live our lives are you saying there shouldn't be, it should just be a free for all? There are many things that people need to be told what to do by laws and this topic is one of them imo.

orubiru wrote: »

And what if she (our hypothetical 16 year old) was not given enough advice or education? What if she didn't understand the need for precautions or she just made a mistake with implementing said precautions? No second chances at all? That's it? You have a baby at 16, your opportunities in life will be greatly reduced, should have been more careful or just not had sex?

The fact that you say "or else don't have sex" is interesting. Again, it seems more like judgement than actual consideration of the points being made.

How many 16 year olds don't know how things work in this day and age really? If they don't that's something that should be sorted out going forward and ensure that people are informed. I very much doubt any 16 year old is getting pregnant in 2015 by not knowing they need to take precautions.

The Corinthian · 10-06-2015 12:43PM

orubiru wrote: »

I'd say that's a more complicated situation and maybe not one for this thread.

Well not really, because I'm not so much asking you specifically for a direct answer, but to highlight how we have come to view personal responsibility differently for pretty illogical reasons. If you feel a man should be responsible for his 'error in judgment', then it makes the moral justification for abortion as an alternative to contraception rather dubious.

But how increasingly no one is responsible for their 'errors in judgment' in any scenario anymore is another discussion also.

I assume that sperm donors have some kind of legal protection? I wouldn't know enough about it to be honest.

Depends on the jurisdiction. They removed it in the UK, and donations dried up overnight - no pun intended.

orubiru · 10-06-2015 01:01PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

How many 16 year olds don't know how things work in this day and age really? If they don't that's something that should be sorted out going forward and ensure that people are informed. I very much doubt any 16 year old is getting pregnant in 2015 by not knowing they need to take precautions.

The point was more that 16 year olds are relatively inexperienced and still trying to find their place in the world. Even if they do know about precautions they are still young enough and naive enough to make mistakes.

I can't imagine there are many 16 year olds whos goal is to get pregnant before they have finished high school. Yet, these things happen.

I am saying lets get them the best medical advice and give them choices. Why not do our best to make sure they don't make mistakes and then also give them a safety net?

Let's not delude ourselves (or allow ourselves to be deluded by others) into believing that a first trimester abortion is anything like "killing babies" or "murdering innocent children". It is not.

We can easily advise people that abortion is not the best course of action whilst giving them enough honest and factual information that they are not guilted or forced into having a kid when they really don't want to do that.

We can tell them that there are risks involved with having an abortion and that in future they should really take care but we can also tell them that it's their own reproductive system and we, as a society, will allow them to have some control over what happens to their bodies.

Anything else just seems, at best, an attempt to control people or, at worst, a desire to see people "punished" for their bad decisions.

hynesie08 · 10-06-2015 01:32PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

How many 16 year olds don't know how things work in this day and age really? If they don't that's something that should be sorted out going forward and ensure that people are informed. I very much doubt any 16 year old is getting pregnant in 2015 by not knowing they need to take precautions.

A shocking amount, because sex education in this country is taught in an absolutely woeful way. The amount of kids that age who still think you can't get pregnant your first time or on your period is astounding, and as long as schools are teaching abstinence as contraception that won't change.

_Whimsical_ · 10-06-2015 02:07PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

A shocking amount, because sex education in this country is taught in an absolutely woeful way. The amount of kids that age who still think you can't get pregnant your first time or on your period is astounding, and as long as schools are teaching abstinence as contraception that won't change.

I wonder how true that is. Those points about contraception, getting pregnant on your first time etc are driven home from every angle these days. Public health campaigns,every teen comedy and soap brings it up, popular fiction deals with it,teen magazines and there's a wealth of information online.
I doubt there are 12 year olds still shielded from those realities anymore.

I think if at 16 you're unwilling to take responsibility and inform yourself at ALL as to those points then abstinence probably is the best advice to be giving until you are mature enough to handle sex.

More likely a lot of young pregnancies result from drunken nights and no amount of sex education is going to counter that when it comes to saying no, or the mechanics or using appropriate contraception correctly.

seamus · 10-06-2015 02:07PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act would still be the law between the repeal/replacement of the 8th amendment and the enactment of any legislation to replace it.

Correct.

Abortion would still be legally punishable with up to 14 years in prison, except where the abortion is carried out to save the life of the mother, within the requirements of that act.

If the 8th was repealed, that would continue to apply until that act was amended.

10-06-2015 02:13PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

A shocking amount, because sex education in this country is taught in an absolutely woeful way.

I highly doubt it, nowadays people find these things out for themselves and far younger than 16.

In reality for children under 16 abstinence should be encouraged as they are in reality too young to be getting involved in sexual relationships in the first place and too young to deal with the consequences if something goes wrong. Abortion should not be a "2nd chance" or a get out of jail free card for someone after a drunken ride it should be for strict circumstances only.

It wont be easy and if will have a big effect on peoples lives having a child I wont deny that, but its far far better than abortion for no reason other than they dont want the baby.

K4t · 10-06-2015 02:16PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I think if at 16 you're unwilling to take responsibility and inform yourself at ALL as to those points then abstinence probably is the best advice to be giving until you are mature enough to handle sex.

Right, because ignorant 16 year olds can repel their sexual impulses easier than informed ones..

orubiru · 10-06-2015 02:18PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I think if at 16 you're unwilling to take responsibility and inform yourself at ALL as to those points then abstinence probably is the best advice to be giving until you are mature enough to handle sex.

So you are saying that kids should behave like adults.

You don't see that it's a daft thing to say?

I think at 16 you are pretty much guaranteed to make some mistakes and errors in judgement to some degree. Some kids are more naive or destructive or uneducated than others.

If you're not mature enough to handle sex then how can you be mature enough to handle the concept of abstinence when you are thinking about sex all the time? That's kind of a contradiction. Isn't it?

The problem is that our society is not informing young people well enough and then we are just washing our hands of it "oh well, if you were not willing to educate yourself...".

As these threads develop we seem to start at "abortion is murder" and eventually arrive at "people who choose to have sex should just deal with the consequences".

Why are we ignoring the fact that we could just have education and information, advise people on the pros and cons of each course of action and then allow the individual woman to decide what she wants to do with her own reproductive system?

The Corinthian · 10-06-2015 02:20PM

K4t wrote: »

Right, because ignorant 16 year olds can repel their sexual impulses easier than informed ones..

Are you seriously suggesting that teenagers, or anyone else for that matter, should not be held accountable for their impulses or urges?

"I know he put him in hospital, but bless him you know how it is at that age"

orubiru · 10-06-2015 02:22PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Abortion should not be a "2nd chance" or a get out of jail free card for someone after a drunken ride it should be for strict circumstances only.

Why not?

Why should we be the ones who decide if there's a "2nd chance" or not? It's their body. How is it that you and I have a stake in what some random girl does with her body?

If it's not OK to "kill a baby" then why would it suddenly be OK in "strict circumstances"?

I wonder why most EU governments allow abortion "on demand" during the first trimester. Any ideas?

The Corinthian · 10-06-2015 02:23PM

orubiru wrote: »

So you are saying that kids should behave like adults.

If they've reached the age of consent, isn't that kind of the point?

Or should we raise this to, say, 25?

The Corinthian · 10-06-2015 02:27PM

orubiru wrote: »

Why should we be the ones who decide if there's a "2nd chance" or not? It's their body. How is it that you and I have a stake in what some random girl does with her body?

Well, it's not as simple as that as there is another party involved. When that happens society does step in.

_Whimsical_ · 10-06-2015 02:29PM

orubiru wrote: »

So you are saying that kids should behave like adults.

You don't see that it's a daft thing to say?

I think at 16 you are pretty much guaranteed to make some mistakes and errors in judgement to some degree. Some kids are more naive or destructive or uneducated than others.

If you're not mature enough to handle sex then how can you be mature enough to handle the concept of abstinence when you are thinking about sex all the time? That's kind of a contradiction. Isn't it?

The problem is that our society is not informing young people well enough and then we are just washing our hands of it "oh well, if you were not willing to educate yourself...".

As these threads develop we seem to start at "abortion is murder" and eventually arrive at "people who choose to have sex should just deal with the consequences".

Why are we ignoring the fact that we could just have education and information, advise people on the pros and cons of each course of action and then allow the individual woman to decide what she wants to do with her own reproductive system?

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't have education, they absolutely should have the best education possible. Neither did I say anyone deserves an unwanted pregnancy if they mess up.
I'm just making the point that I doubt loads of 16 year olds are ignorant of contraception right now. I don't think that having the hip teacher in school do their thing with a condom and a banana is going to be hugely effective at preventing pregnancy in this climate when there are so many educational resources available.

I do think if you aren't mature enough to consider contraception and research it, and there are acres of young teen friendly resources online, that you shouldn't be having sex no. It ruins lives, it's a big deal, abortion is a big deal too for the individual who undergoes it. It's messy and painful and unpleasant and for some people it's consequences are something that emotionally troubles them for a long time. It's not a sticky plaster for a boo-boo!

nc19 · 10-06-2015 02:32PM

RobertKK wrote:

If we had someone who murdered someone, they spend lets say 20 years in jail, they then go to a country where the death penalty is allowed, the same person murders someone there. They execute the person for murder. Does that mean we should have had the death penalty, because a foreign country removed the life of the murderer?

RobertKK wrote:

This is the argument you are using.

Ridiculous

Oh, and we should have the death penalty. For all the dirty priests and nuns and for people who say 'seen' when they meant 'saw' or 'see'

Shenshen · 10-06-2015 02:32PM

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

I highly doubt it, nowadays people find these things out for themselves and far younger than 16.

In reality for children under 16 abstinence should be encouraged as they are in reality too young to be getting involved in sexual relationships in the first place and too young to deal with the consequences if something goes wrong. Abortion should not be a "2nd chance" or a get out of jail free card for someone after a drunken ride it should be for strict circumstances only.

It wont be easy and if will have a big effect on peoples lives having a child I wont deny that, but its far far better than abortion for no reason other than they dont want the baby.

There's an awful lot in this post about what the world "should" be like. To me that implies that you are fully aware that while this "should" be, it isn't in fact always the case.

You say yourself that under 16s, in your opinion, are too young to become sexually active. Yet when they are, and when they make mistakes, you would be happy for them to be forced to carry a pregnancy to term and raise a child?

And I honestly have to ask, why do you regard children as punishment?

orubiru · 10-06-2015 02:33PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

If they've reached the age of consent, isn't that kind of the point?

Or should we raise this to, say, 25?

No. Maybe we should realize that although the age of consent is 16 they would inexperienced at that age and mistakes are likely due to that inexperience.

A white belt can do karate but you don't just throw them into a fight with a black belt and then say "deal with it" when things go wrong.

16 year olds are inexperienced. They may be capable of taking responsibility for their actions but we are denying young women the ability to say "well, I'm not ready to have a baby".

So we are really saying "we'll concede that you have responsibility for your actions and the ability to control your own destiny BUT the state has control of your womb".

They can choose how they want to live but they can't make THAT choice. Unlike their European counterparts.

nc19 · 10-06-2015 02:36PM

lynski wrote:

The pregnant woman, she decides. She is one of Ireland's well educated youth......

Not sure where you're from but the youth I see pregnant are far from educated. While I think abortion should be legal here these types of people will use it as a contraception imo but that's the beauty of democracy, everyone has the same rights.........

Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

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