Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Is Ireland to replace its Emigrants with Immigrants?

Options
135

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    MathDebater
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭MathDebater


    Precious flower wrote:
    Leave, and go where? They hardly wish to return home?

    Deported to their country of origin.
    precious flower wrote:
    The system has been criticised heavily many times for being poor and inadequate.

    What's the alternative to DP? If the system was brought in line with our 'EU partners' then asylum seekers would be allowed just one appeal and if that fails; deportation. Would you prefer that?
    precious flower wrote:
    Where do you have proof that the majority of them are bogus. Ireland's track record for letting people through is low, suggesting that many applicants are genuine but are still refused
    ALMOST nine out of 10 asylum claims are bogus, according to immigration officials who are preparing to clamp down on alleged abuses of the process.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/90pc-of-asylum-claims-are-bogus-as-officials-clamp-down-on-abuses-25944030.html
    Some 90% of asylum applications are ultimately seen to be unfounded and a third of those people claiming asylum reveal an immigration history in the UK.

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2009-04-22.73.0
    Dealing fairly but efficiently with the large number of unfounded asylum claims which are being received which represent over 90% of the total asylum applications being processed annually

    http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171


  • Options
    #63
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,155 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »
    Yes, emotional blackmail based on objective fact.
    An 11 hour wait might change your thinking.

    I've waited 11 hours and I'm not against people coming here. Then again I'm not placing the blame for all our ills at the feet of immigrants.


  • Options
    #64
    Precious flower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭Precious flower


    denhaagenite wrote: »
    Isn't it just the epitome of hypocrisy?

    To be honest, ever human being is a hypocrite, it really is impossible to keep stringently to the same morals for your entire life. It's just that most human beings don't have other people watching their every move and every thing they say so that they can pull them up on something when they have said it differently from 10 years ago. Governments do what looks good in the moment because they know they will only be in charge for a certain amount of time. Long term thinking isn't a particularly favourable thing when you're looking for votes in the very near future. A lot if voters aren't terribly interested in long term thinking because it won't immediately benefit/harm them.


  • Options
    #65
    Tefral
    Registered Users Posts: 4,318 ✭✭✭Tefral


    Elemonator wrote: »
    Ah here lads the Eithne is hardly built for war. :D

    It has a 57mm cannon and 2 20mm cannons on it. If it had to blow something up it could. Anyway thats getting off topic.
    Precious flower wrote: »
    When Irish people fled to America /Canada/England during the Famine/Troubles/economic downturn, should we have been turned back?

    We went, we spoke the language, we didn't get help, people went and worked. I haven't a clue of the statistics but its well known anecdotally that the skyscrapers in New York were built by Irish and all the roads in England. Whether its true or not, we did have a name for being industrious and working hard wherever we settled. The same cant be said for the people holed up in Knockalisheen or Mosney etc. I went to the UK for work, I helped build a new terminal in Heathrow Airport. I contributed hundreds in Tax to the HMRC, I got involved in local clubs, I spent my money in Local businesses.

    No problem with people coming here and working their socks off to integrate and contribute. But just scooping a load of people out of the sea and bringing them here and providing them with a free ride - that I have a problem with.


  • Options
    #66
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Until the Phillipino nurse and Indian doctor find you a bed?

    Facetious.

    Maybe in your world there's no limits and love will save us.
    Back here in reality there's debts and cuts and austerity and a line has to be drawn at some point.
    I'd say with things as they are maybe now is not the time to take on additional expense.
    Ask someone on 188 or a trolley.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,477 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Why are they even ending up in Europe is the real question. Either turn the boats back or rescue then and land them back from wherever they left or do what Aus does and send them all to some remote prison not on their own territory


  • Options
    #68
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    cronin_j wrote: »
    It has a 57mm cannon and 2 20mm cannons on it. If it had to blow something up it could. Anyway thats getting off topic.



    We went, we spoke the language, we didn't get help, people went and worked. I haven't a clue of the statistics but its well known anecdotally that the skyscrapers in New York were built by Irish and all the roads in England. Whether its true or not, we did have a name for being industrious and working hard wherever we settled. The same cant be said for the people holed up in Knockalisheen or Mosney etc. ..............

    ...because they are not allowed work, by law.


  • Options
    #69
    Precious flower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭Precious flower


    MathDebater wrote: »
    Deported to their country of origin.



    What's the alternative to DP? If the system was brought in line with our 'EU partners' then asylum seekers would be allowed just one appeal and if that fails; deportation. Would you prefer that?





    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/90pc-of-asylum-claims-are-bogus-as-officials-clamp-down-on-abuses-25944030.html



    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2009-04-22.73.0



    http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171

    My first question was sarcastic, their country of origin is a place I can't imagine they want to return if they are willing to remain in the system as long as they are. False claims may also be due to desparation if they feel they can get in no other way. It isn't always to scam the system. I can tell you very few people want to move a completely different country just to live off the dole. Some do, but a large majority don't.

    I had only to read the first sentence of one of the articles you referenced to know that the rest would be clearly bias in a certain direction:
    "A small but well placed minority of commentators have sought to create the impression that Ireland's treatment of asylum seekers is harsh and unfair.
    Ireland's recognition rate for refugee status at first instance compares favourably to other European countries as follows:
    Denmark 4.9%; Ireland 6.2%; Spain 2.6%; Norway 3.6%; Germany 3.3%; UK 3%.
    This number also relates to after appeal not before it's only 1.5% before.
    The following have targeted Ireland's track record: Council of Europe’s Committee for the Prevention of Torture (CPT) as well as the European commission of human rights. Even Britain have shown disfavour with their treatment of applicants
    When the UK Border Agency sought to deport the family back to Ireland under the Dublin II regulation, they mounted a legal challenge to their deportation, arguing that Ireland’s refugee and protection status determination system, and in particular its very low refugee recognition rate and its direct provision system, would violate their rights under the European Charter of Fundamental Rights.
    Again with the European Commission involved it's clear that Irish government are attempting to hide how they process applicants. Their claim that the majority are bogus and that 9 out of 10 (which is a ridiculous high number) is an attempt to cover up just how many individuals they are refusing on shaky grounds. Also, accepting people from EU countries seems extremely wrong. Funny that the

    Love the Independant article you referred which claims that 9 out of ten claims are bogus claims "officials" but then goes into zero detail on this or who even said it which gives me zero faith in such an imaginary source.

    Also this:
    There has been a decrease in the number of applications, which suggests that many asylum seekers were coming for economic rather than asylum reasons.
    could be due to any number of reasons, more than likely due to this:
    However, since 2008, the immigration rate has slowed significantly and economic problems have led to stricter immigration policies (Ruhs 2009


  • Options
    #70
    MathDebater
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭MathDebater


    Those that are unsuccessful in their asylum claims should be deported with haste. If they have skills that our labour market lacks or want to study here, then there are visas for that. If they do not qualify for such visas then that is not our problem. They most certainly should not be rewarded, by being allowed stay, for lodging a false asylum claim in an attempt to circumvent our immigration procedures.

    Numerous Ministers for Justice have stated that over 90% of asylum seekers are bogus. If you dispute that this is fine, but please provide evidence that they are lying. The reason why Ireland has such a high refusal rate is due to this fact.


  • Options
    #71
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,155 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    cronin_j wrote: »
    It has a 57mm cannon and 2 20mm cannons on it. If it had to blow something up it could. Anyway thats getting off topic.



    We went, we spoke the language, we didn't get help, people went and worked. I haven't a clue of the statistics but its well known anecdotally that the skyscrapers in New York were built by Irish and all the roads in England. Whether its true or not, we did have a name for being industrious and working hard wherever we settled. The same cant be said for the people holed up in Knockalisheen or Mosney etc. I went to the UK for work, I helped build a new terminal in Heathrow Airport. I contributed hundreds in Tax to the HMRC, I got involved in local clubs, I spent my money in Local businesses.

    No problem with people coming here and working their socks off to integrate and contribute. But just scooping a load of people out of the sea and bringing them here and providing them with a free ride - that I have a problem with.

    If you pop over to the Irish language thread you'll see that most Irish emigrants in the 1800's spoke Irish. They learned english over there. They also were treated horrendously.

    The people in Mosney are not allowed to work. If you read any interview with them you'd see that they want. Additionally if you're worried about economic migrants, don't be. People who are economic migrants tend to be young and wan to work. They didn't travel thousands of miles overland to sit on their arses when they got here.

    However you have hit on a point that people who act as advocates for refugees bring up a lot. There's no point in locking people up for months if not years. These people want to work so let them. They want to be part of the country. They want to pay taxes and all the other cap we whine about.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    MathDebater
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭MathDebater


    However you have hit on a point that people who act as advocates for refugees bring up a lot. There's no point in locking people up for months if not years. These people want to work so let them. They want to be part of the country. They want to pay taxes and all the other cap we whine about.

    People awarded refugee status are allowed work, study and access welfare.


  • Options
    #73
    xhoundx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 327 ✭✭xhoundx


    Precious flower wrote: »
    I can tell you very few people want to move a completely different country just to live off the dole. Some do, but a large majority don't.

    Can you back this up in any way?


  • Options
    #74
    xhoundx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 327 ✭✭xhoundx


    Grayson wrote: »
    Additionally if you're worried about economic migrants, don't be. People who are economic migrants tend to be young and wan to work. They didn't travel thousands of miles overland to sit on their arses when they got here.

    What jobs are they coming for?

    How can you be so sure they are coming to work and not for the benefits?


  • Options
    #75
    Tefral
    Registered Users Posts: 4,318 ✭✭✭Tefral


    xhoundx wrote: »
    What jobs are they coming for?

    This is the most central part of my argument, the country cannot even support its own, We have 10% unemployment and if you take off the government spin of people in solas schemes etc its much more. They would be here to do the lower paid work that we already have loads of people for that cant get work in.

    If they were highly educated they wouldnt be in the mess their in they would have left on a skilled visa somewhere.

    Bottom line is:
    • We cannot afford to pay them
    • We cannot afford to house them
    • We are displacing our own citizens
    • They do not speak the language
    • Culturally they are vastly different (which in alot of cases isn't actually a bad thing if it sits with the local community)
    • We cannot afford any more burden on our social welfare system
    • We cannot afford a bigger burden on our health system
    • We already have overcrowding in our schools and cannot afford to admit even our own pupils


  • Options
    #76
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    I really don't think this is representative of immigration to Ireland. One of my closest friends has an Irish father but grew up in Spain, my flatmate is Spanish, one of my closest friends is Polish, I drink with Germans (working for a big multinational,) the bar man in my local is Ukrainian, others there are French, Belgian, etc. These people work for big call centres, in local businesses, they're in education (my flatmate just got his CCNA,) some work for hotels, etc.

    I think that's the reality of a lot of immigration. Not 500 people coming from a boat in the Med.


  • Options
    #77
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,155 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    xhoundx wrote: »
    What jobs are they coming for?

    How can you be so sure they are coming to work and not for the benefits?

    I'm losing track here. Are they stealing our jobs or our benefits.


  • Options
    #78
    Montgolfier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭Montgolfier


    Grayson wrote: »
    Every year my family puts candles in every window of the house on christmas eve. It's supposed to be a welcome for any travellers/homeless people who are wandering with no place to stay. So that unlike Mary and Joseph they will not be turned away everywhere and will have somewhere to stay.
    I'm sure it's just to decorate the house at Christmas, I mean if a traveler knocked on your door on Christmas eve; what would actually do?


  • Options
    #79
    MathDebater
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭MathDebater


    You realise large scale immigration can put pressure on the welfare system and also oversaturate some job sectors? Take African migrants. Their employment rate is less than 40% but they have also have saturated the taxi market.


  • Options
    #80
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,854 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    500 is a miniscule number to be honest.

    In comparison Germany has over 300,000 landed on its doorstep in the past 16 months since the beginning of 2014

    Per capita that'd be equivalent to 16,600 that would need to arrive in Ireland to be the same.
    And for the humpy anti immigrant neighbours, that'd be 214,000 the UK would want to have to deal with

    Ironic too that the treaty that deals with this immigration is the "Dublin Treaty" !


  • Options
    #81
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Grayson wrote: »
    I'm losing track here. Are they stealing our jobs or our benefits.


    They do both, while consuming our wildlife - frequently uncooked.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    MathDebater
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭MathDebater


    In comparison Germany has over 300,000 landed on its doorstep in the past 16 months since the beginning of 2014

    As is their choice. If Germany and Sweden want to play humanitarian superpowers then more power to them. The rest of us don't have to follow them down that rabbit hole.


  • Options
    #83
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,986 ✭✭✭conorhal


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    500 is a miniscule number to be honest.

    In comparison Germany has over 300,000 landed on its doorstep in the past 16 months since the beginning of 2014

    Per capita that'd be equivalent to 16,600 that would need to arrive in Ireland to be the same.
    And for the humpy anti immigrant neighbours, that'd be 214,000 the UK would want to have to deal with

    Ironic too that the treaty that deals with this immigration is the "Dublin Treaty" !

    Perhaps you missed the memo on EU quotas but 16,000 is exactly what you'll get if we sign up, the 500 refers to UN refugees in camps along the boarders of Syria etc.


  • Options
    #84
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,986 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Nodin wrote: »
    They do both, while consuming our wildlife - frequently uncooked.

    Correct Nodin.

    Many will drive employment down to the lowest common denmominator through the oversupply of cheap labour while those with no hope of ever getting a job due to low educational employment and poor language skills (like 40% of Africans living in this state) will swell and eventually dismantle our social welfare system. At which point we'll all be trapping swans for food (if we're lucky).


  • Options
    #85
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ....first they came for the Swans, and I did nothing.
    They they came for the batter burgers, and I did nothing.....


  • Options
    #86
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,986 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....first they came for the Swans, and I did nothing.
    They they came for the batter burgers, and I did nothing.....

    Don't worry, I'll stand up and shout stop right after they've come for the facetious eejits..... :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #87
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,854 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    MathDebater wrote: »
    As is their choice. If Germany and Sweden want to play humanitarian superpowers then more power to them. The rest of us don't have to follow them down that rabbit hole.
    err, no

    Thanks to the Dublin treaty, the first place the person seeks asylum is where they are processed.

    A lot come up through greece and through east europe, even breaking out of asylum homes in Hungary to avoid being documented there as they are determined to make it to western europe and being registered in the likes of Hungary means you cannot make a second claim in the west.

    Germany isnt chooing to have these people, these people are choosing (and deliberately NOT claiming asylum in the first, or second or third safe country en route) to come to Germany.
    Which essentially shows that a lot are fleeing for a better life, not for their safety


  • Options
    #88
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    The EU sees Irish nationalism as something to be diluted and defeated.

    Much like bolsheviks viewed Georgian or Latvian nationalism.

    Helping out those who are stuck when we can is our duty, yes. But before we start we ought to clearly state the limit of our involvement. 500, and then how many?


  • Options
    #89
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    topper75 wrote: »
    The EU sees Irish nationalism as something to be diluted and defeated.
    .........

    Why, in the name of jaysus?


  • Options
    #90
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,986 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Nodin wrote: »
    Why, in the name of jaysus?

    Because nationalism is the anthisis of the corporatist superstate that the EU disires to create.
    Seriously Nodin, when you find youself on the same side of an immigration debate as Peter Sutherland and Donkey-lafs Bruton do you not get worried that you might just be wrong about a stance that mirrors that of libertarian capitalism?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    conorhal wrote: »
    we have 60,000 immigrants to this country per annum. Obviously not all or even mostly asylum applicants (which numbers at the moment at about 4,000) but the fact remains that we are indulging in population replacement and importing thousands of people that we can't facilitate.
    The current housing and homlesness crisis has been met with a promise to provide 3,000 houses in the next 3 years to address the issue, that won't even house those currently in asylum reception centers currently. An yes, pretty much all of those will be getting that housing stock.

    You're numbers are disingenuous also, the refer to asylum applicants currently in UN refugee camps (who would bypass the asylum system as pre approved refugees), it has no baring on those crossing the med (90,000 so far this year) or those crosing over land which are multiples of that number. Of those the EU would like us to take a percentage. Nor does it refer to those currently here in direct provision. you need to be building 5,000 homes a year just to accomodate those currently arriving here.

    What's the acceptable number of immigrants and asylum seekers then?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



Advertisement