The Irish language is failing.

Joshua Fishman's steps in reversing language shift.

From wikipedia:

1. Acquisition of the language by adults, who in effect act as language apprentices (recommended where most of the remaining speakers of the language are elderly and socially isolated from other speakers of the language).
2. Create a socially integrated population of active speakers (or users) of the language (at this stage it is usually best to concentrate mainly on the spoken language rather than the written language).
3. In localities where there are a reasonable number of people habitually using the language, encourage the informal use of the language among people of all age groups and within families and bolster its daily use through the establishment of local neighbourhood institutions in which the language is encouraged, protected and (in certain contexts at least) used exclusively.
4. In areas where oral competence in the language has been achieved in all age groups encourage literacy in the language but in a way that does not depend upon assistance from (or goodwill of) the state education system.
5. Where the state permits it, and where numbers warrant, encourage the use of the language in compulsory state education.
6. Where the above stages have been achieved and consolidated, encourage the use of the language in the workplace (lower worksphere).
7. Where the above stages have been achieved and consolidated encourage the use of the language in local government services and mass media.
8. Where the above stages have been achieved and consolidated encourage use of the language in higher education, government, etc.

If there's any wisdom to this theory then you can see where we've gone wrong. Note the "where this has been achieved" in several of the points. In some respects we've followed the reverse of his list of steps.

Although I'm not qualified to say whether these steps are the one's we should follow, I think it illustrates a need for completely fresh thinking on the matter. Get outside experts to objectively assess the state of the language and formulate a realistic strategy. Stop listening to vested interests.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This proposal has already failed at step 1 as adults do not want to use Irish, even whatever bit they know from school.

Yes, we got it wrong from the start. There was a lot of delusional thinking going on when the original policies were being put together.

The basic delusion was that Irish was not being spoken by the population at large because it was being actively suppressed by the British. Remove the British (and their suppression of the language) and the tongue of the Gael will spring back to life.

But I don't think Fishman is talking about getting a whole country to speak a nearly dead language. I believe he's talking about the steps necessary to get a language to a self-sustaining stage from the verge of extinction. So Dublin, for example, may never be an Irish speaking city (i.e. where Irish is the dominant language) but communities elsewhere may achieve this.

Note that in his list, the State only becomes involved about half-way down. The onus has to be on those who wish to see the language revived in the first place. They would be the adults who pass it on. Only when they have a achieved a certain amount would the State get involved and only in those areas where this has been achieved.

I agree with this. The heavy hand of the State has done most in terms of killing the language but like I said earlier this is due to delusional thinking.

I think it boils down to how its taught in the schools. I learnt German and French in Germany and France respectively. Irish should be taught through Irish full stop. Instead kids have to trawl through tons of poems written in the 16th century from a teacher who hasn't enough Irish to teach it solely through Irish. The primary purpose of Irish classes should be to ensure everyone has a good ability to speak it and understand the basics elements of grammar. Too much emphasis is put on Irish literature etc. That's comes later! When I was learning German and French there was no emphasis on literature until I reached a fluent level. Its all down to attitude and the educational elite in this country take decades to change anything. Pilot programs should be setup around the country to try out different methods of teaching. The educational department should travel to countries like Sweden and the Netherlands where they get language learning consistently right. We shouldn't give up on our language. Its actually lovely to listen to and it was the first language to be standardised in Europe. We should be proud of it. Language learning is hard but its worth it. It opens up a whole new dimension to understanding a culture. We get direct insight into what was important to people in this country over the last centuries. No book translation can ever be the same. I'm sure 'War and Peace' is far superior in Russian than it is translated into English.

The Corinthian wrote: »

It won't be pulled overnight. While the language is not quite the same sacred cow it once was, there are still too many vested interests and politically it is still a little to sensitive to do this.

I'd expect to see it's mandatory status in education and government eroded slowly. Eventually this would eventually lead to budgetary cuts, as this is where real opposition will appear - when the jobs associated with Irish would become threatened. And finally, it's nominal status as 'first language' will remain long after it's gone.

Unfortunately, and I do mean unfortunately, that's where I see it all going in the long run.

I've not said people have no ideas. I've said that on one side the only idea held is to see the language die and the other side the language is alive and well and how dare you suggest otherwise - that middle ground has either become the exception, rather than the rule, increasingly or has been abandoned to apathy.

Evangelists? Great; just what the Irish educational system needs more of.

Who is 'we' exactly?

Evangelists...?? Wtf did d you get that idea from...??

'We' are the people you don't seem to want to believe exist - the middle ground ,- those who dont see it as black and white. We don't speak, have no desire to learn, but don't want to see it die either.

Doesn't mean we're thick though. We still have ideas about language conservation and development and pedagogics. Ideas that would work.

LordSutch wrote: »

Scrap it altogether for the sake of the children?

Thanks, that made me smile

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We don't speak, have no desire to learn, but don't want to see it die either.

Doesn't mean we're thick though. We still have ideas about language conservation and development and pedagogics. Ideas that would work.

But these are ideas for other people to implement, aren't they?

Respectfully, while your intentions may be wholesome, they contribute nothing to the solving of the problem unless you are willing to put your own effort, or your own money, behind those ideas.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Use the search function and you'll see what I've suggested in the past. I'm past the point at this stage of repeating myself for no purpose.

No need. I'll take your word for it that they were fantastic suggestions and that they were ignored because of ignorance of the other posters and not because of any deficiencies in the suggestions themselves.

Zen65 wrote: »

But these are ideas for other people to implement, aren't they?

Respectfully, while your intentions may be wholesome, they contribute nothing to the solving of the problem unless you are willing to put your own effort, or your own money, behind those ideas.

No-one outside of language enthusiasts sees the state of Irish as a problem. It's no more a problem than not everyone being able to play the fiddle, in terms of people's everyday lives. The Irish language has simply undergone a process which many languages have, there's nothing especially tragic or unnatural about the fact that we all speak English, given that we're next door to one of the, historically, greatest world powers.