The Irish language is failing.

Aineoil · 07-06-2015 08:30PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If the above solution is too radical.My alternative modern high tech solution would be to just teach computers and coding through Irish!

Cén fáth? An bhfuil tairbhe ag baint le sin? Nílim ag magadh fuath. I ndáirire táim

fiosrach?

Deranged96 · 07-06-2015 08:37PM

Grayson wrote: »

I'm proud of hiberno-english.

All you culture nazi's can feck off, ya feckin eejits.

Hiberno-English is just English that wasn't learned properly and then was taught to others.

ironic considering the topic at hand

Aineoil · 07-06-2015 08:47PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Hiberno-English is just English that wasn't learned properly and then was taught to others.

ironic considering the topic at hand

There's no standard English.

English learned properly? I don't understand.

Zen65 · 07-06-2015 08:48PM

tipparetops wrote: »

I do not think anyone can be confident in their national identity if they cannot speak their own language.

I suspect you have not given that too much thought at all, or else you have a very narrow sense of what "national identity" for Ireland is.

RecordStraight · 07-06-2015 08:52PM

Aineoil wrote: »

There's no standard English.

This. There are only versions of English.

Aineoil · 07-06-2015 08:56PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

This. There are only versions of English.

Well I don't understand some phrases used by Australians and some Americans. So

versions of English is a good description.

Zen65 · 07-06-2015 08:59PM

Aineoil wrote: »

I think compulsory Irish within the school system has had it's day. Change is needed. People are turned off by the language because it is compulsory.

I suspect people are turned off Irish language because it offers so little benefit. It is not relevant to the internet-age, it will not offer an advantage in terms of a real job (translation into Irish is not a real job, IMO, as it is an unnecessary task being carried out solely for the purpose of keeping Irish speakers employed). There are some ridiculous requirements imposed around teaching, i.e. that a primary school teacher must have passed an Irish language exam, but again this is simply self-serving and not for any benefit beyond preserving the language.

Today's youth would rather spend time learning a language that enables them to communicate with more people, and not waste their time learning a language that does not increase their reach nor their relevance.

The language is dying. We should acknowledge that and move on. Learning Chinese, Japanese or Russian would be a better way to spend our time.

Deranged96 · 07-06-2015 09:01PM

Aineoil wrote: »

There's no standard English.

English learned properly? I don't understand.

I never claimed there was a standard English.
I'm just saying that any differences in the way we speak English over here, as opposed to in England, is due to English not being learned well (in case the above is a dig on grammar?) and mistakes being passed down and accepted into the vernacular.

An example being the continuous present tense that came over from Irish, "My mother does be giving me hell"

Zen65 · 07-06-2015 09:04PM

tipparetops wrote: »

If you cannot, fair enough you tried but if you will not it is you choosing to be an Anglophile.

Tipp, the world has moved on from the time when there was only Irish and English. People choosing not to learn Irish are not trying to become Anglophiles; they are choosing to make themselves more relevant in a world which does not speak the language.

Aineoil · 07-06-2015 09:14PM

Zen65 wrote: »

I suspect people are turned off Irish language because it offers so little benefit. It is not relevant to the internet-age, it will not offer an advantage in terms of a real job (translation into Irish is not a real job, IMO, as it is an unnecessary task being carried out solely for the purpose of keeping Irish speakers employed). There are some ridiculous requirements imposed around teaching, i.e. that a primary school teacher must have passed an Irish language exam, but again this is simply self-serving and not for any benefit beyond preserving the language.

Today's youth would rather spend time learning a language that enables them to communicate with more people, and not waste their time learning a language that does not increase their reach nor their relevance.

The language is dying. We should acknowledge that and move on. Learning Chinese, Japanese or Russian would be a better way to spend our time.

I agree with your post but I will be shot for what I'm going to say next.

Where I teach we have student teachers who are required as part of their

placement have to teach Irish. Most of them, not all, have no clue with regards

to the language. I have witnessed lessons with so many glaringly obvious

grammatical errors.

That's just sloppy preparation. Our children deserve better. Last year I had to

try and unteach a grammar point - not in a obvious way. I wasn't saying today

we are going to grammar - just repeated the phrases correctly.

Passing an Irish exam is all well and good but are you fluent in the language.

Zen65 · 07-06-2015 09:27PM

Aineoil wrote: »

Where I teach we have student teachers who are required as part of their placement have to teach Irish. Most of them, not all, have no clue with regards to the language. I have witnessed lessons with so many glaringly obvious grammatical errors.

Yes, I have seen my own kids (when they were in school) with notes from their teachers which were full of basic grammar mistakes. I just smile now, because in a few short years I expect that our schoolteachers will be teaching Google-Irish. Right now they're seeing Google-Irish in the essays the kids hand in.

Aineoil · 07-06-2015 09:31PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

I never claimed there was a standard English.
I'm just saying that any differences in the way we speak English over here, as opposed to in England, is due to English not being learned well (in case the above is a dig on grammar?) and mistakes being passed down and accepted into the vernacular.

An example being the continuous present tense that came over from Irish, "My mother does be giving me hell"

In fairness you never claimed that there was a standard English.

I love the way the Irish have taken to English.

Language evolves. I love that.

Samuel Beckett
James Joyce
Flann O Brien
Brendan Behan
Oscar Wilde
Richard Brinsley Sheridan

They all made English their own and different.

jackofalltrades · 07-06-2015 09:34PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have always said the simple answer is compulsory all-irsh schools from playschool right through secondary level. For everyone no exceptions. Then the language will be used everyday. I cannot understand why it was not done at the foundation of the state. Problem solved. Otherwise kids are made do Irish in a bit part way at primary level which is too late.
Everyone hates rote learning, speak the f**king thing instead first!

Fairly sure making it compulsory to have lessons in Irish would be a breach of parents constitutional rights, to educate their own children.

The sad part is I bet the Irish children of foreign nationals would embrace it.

There are foreign nationals coming to this country that have no/very little English and have to try and learn the language from scratch.
Adding Irish on top of that, would make a difficult job impossible.

gormdubhgorm · 07-06-2015 09:36PM

Aineoil wrote: »

Cén fáth? An bhfuil tairbhe ag baint le sin? Nílim ag magadh fuath. I ndáirire táim

fiosrach?

Since your curious I will answer. There are some people who think that Irish is a waste of time. And that computer coding would be more benificial. That might be the compromise!

Aineoil · 07-06-2015 09:47PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

There are foreign nationals coming to this country that have no/very little English and have to try and learn the language from scratch.
Adding Irish on top of that, would make a difficult job impossible.

Actually they are better than Irish children at Irish. They have no attitude about it.

The Polish children I teach have excellent English and their Irish is better than their

Irish counterparts.

briany · 07-06-2015 09:57PM

Aineoil wrote: »

In fairness you never claimed that there was a standard English.

I love the way the Irish have taken to English.

Language evolves. I love that.

Samuel Beckett
James Joyce
Flann O Brien
Brendan Behan
Oscar Wilde
Richard Brinsley Sheridan

They all made English their own and different.

The work of those authors is a testament to expressing an Irish view of the world through English.

The idea that English isn't a part of the Irish identity is a political fairytale because it's been here for hundreds of years, developing it's own dialect in Hiberno-English. It's important to remember that Gaelic came to Ireland as a foreign language itself, as the current evidence seems to indicate that there never was a Celtic invasion, but rather the people who'd been living here since the Neolithic age adopted Old Irish through trade links with Britain or the continent. They saw more use in speaking it than whatever unknown language they spoke at the time, and it's pretty safe to say the poetic sound of it had little influence on their decision.

gormdubhgorm · 07-06-2015 10:09PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

making it compulsory to have lessons in Irish would be a breach of parents constitutional rights, to educate their own children.

There are foreign nationals coming to this country that have no/very little English and have to try and learn the language from scratch.
Adding Irish on top of that, would make a difficult job impossible.

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

As for the foreign nationals "new Irish" the multi lingual kids take to Irish better then the Irish kids of Irish parents.

briany · 07-06-2015 10:15PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

As for the foreign nationals "new Irish" the multi lingual kids take to Irish better then the Irish kids of Irish parents.

That's not a very nice way to talk about An Caighdeán Oifigiúil. :pac:

Grayson · 07-06-2015 10:24PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

As for the foreign nationals "new Irish" the multi lingual kids take to Irish better then the Irish kids of Irish parents.

Barely. It wasn't at first. Then after a lot of whining it became a "treaty language" and after more whining it became an official language.

At one point it also met the criteria for a dead language according to the EU.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-06-2015 10:40PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

As for the foreign nationals "new Irish" the multi lingual kids take to Irish better then the Irish kids of Irish parents.

Section 3 of the above mentioned articale 8 states:

Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

This would need to be changed or scraped if education were deemed an official purpose.

LordSutch · 07-06-2015 11:01PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

Irish has become a recognised language alright, (but only within the last ten years or so), and only after a lot of pleading and whinging on behalf of this state! So after eight decades Irish is finally recognised by the EU, ironically just as alarm bells ringing re the ever shrinking number of Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht.

Welsh on the other hand is not listed as an official EU language, even though it is flourishing, and going from strength to strength within the confines of the UK.

jackofalltrades · 07-06-2015 11:22PM

Aineoil wrote: »

Actually they are better than Irish children at Irish. They have no attitude about it.
The Polish children I teach have excellent English and their Irish is better than their Irish counterparts.

I'm was refering specifically to parents/students that have poor levels of English.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish Irish is the first language of the state under the constitution. It is also one of the languages of the EU believe it or not!

ARTICLE 42

1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State

Fairly sure this means you can't force children to be taught in Irish.
Since this wouldn't be respectful of parents who can't speak the language, but want to home school their kids.

As for the foreign nationals "new Irish" the multi lingual kids take to Irish better then the Irish kids of Irish parents.

Source?

Dughorm · 07-06-2015 11:22PM

Aineoil wrote: »

Actually they are better than Irish children at Irish. They have no attitude about it.

The Polish children I teach have excellent English and their Irish is better than their

Irish counterparts.

Wow that's quite something! Fair play, it's nice to imagine irish language as a tool for inclusiveness instead of the opposite in a lot of peoples experience here.

I had a look at bua na cainte on edco you mentioned previously. Would you happen to know if the interactive pc software is available or is it for teachers only? Thanks!

An Ciarraioch · 07-06-2015 11:22PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Irish has become a recognised language alright, (but only within the last ten years or so), and only after a lot of pleading and whinging on behalf of this state! So after eight decades Irish is finally recognised by the EU, ironically just as alarm bells ringing re the ever shrinking number of Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht.

Welsh on the other hand is not listed as an official EU language, even though it is flourishing, and going from strength to strength within the confines of the UK.

And Manx has gone from the point from where it literally was extinct, to having a hundred speakers and schools in the language. Ironically, it took an English immigrant to lead the revival after the last native speaker died!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-06-2015 12:12AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Fairly sure this means you can't force children to be taught in Irish.
Since this wouldn't be respectful of parents who can't speak the language, but want to home school their kids.

Articale 42 also states:
2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

It could be argued that not teahing your child irish would be in violation of this.

As I said earlier, article 8, which is cited as the article that instills Irish as the first language, also states that state services shall be provided in both langauges. So a consitutional change would be required to allwo the State to porvide education only in Irish.

Dughorm · 08-06-2015 12:25AM

Here's another reason for mandatory irish in schools...

So that the kids can learn their own national anthem and know what it means....

/gets popcorn

LordSutch · 08-06-2015 12:30AM

Dughorm wrote: »

Here's another reason for mandatory irish in schools...

So that the kids can learn their own national anthem and know what it means....

/gets popcorn

Something about Fianna Fail as I recall, and then . . . . .?

Can't remember the words, just the tune to doodle my way through (as do many).

Un Croissant · 08-06-2015 12:35AM

The national anthem is a dreary affair, whatever language you sing it in.

But what could replace it? Fairytale of New York?

maybe that's for another thread.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-06-2015 12:41AM

Un Croissant wrote: »

The national anthem is a dreary affair, whatever language you sing it in.

But what could replace it? Fairytale of New York? maybe that's for another thread.

Been done. Middle of the recession, if I recall - best asnwer was not to have one, just hae two minutes memorial silence instead.

Un Croissant · 08-06-2015 12:43AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Been done. Middle of the recession, if I recall - best asnwer was not to have one, just hae two minutes memorial silence instead.

Nothing like some silence to get you riled up to trash the English... or for 95% of our team to join the English side and trounce the poor Irish speaking keeper.

The Irish language is failing.

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