Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

folamh wrote: »

Race appropriation; gender appropriation. Both "brave". Doesn't make them right.

That would be Racist or something..

folamh wrote: »

Forget wearing blackface. What about transracialism? Couldn't a similar argument be made that race is also a state of mind that people should be free to identify with, as they do with gender? If not, why not?

How can you possibly argue that race is a state of mind though? Or do you mean that race has a counterpart similar to the relationship between sex and gender? At that point we're just talking about cultural appropriation, which is a constant feature of daily life and generally not something that bothers most people

Joshua Victorious Vista wrote: »

So why are you comparing an argument that can't be made to one that can, and especially why are you doing that like it proves something?

How tidy, Race is biological so there for you cannot think you are a different race to the one you are.

There seems to be some really unusual logic going on in terms of this legislation and in terms how AH wants to moderate this thread.

Firstly -
Terminology, to quote Lyaiera, who's a poster that should know this sort of thing

Lyaiera wrote: »

Transgender is really the umbrella term that includes crossdressers, genderqueer, drag queens, etc. (and there's often debate over that.)

Now I'l probably get called a bigot for saying this but among some of those communities there is some individuals for whom this activity is has a sexual/fetish component.

Secondly
There is at least one reason I can immediately think of for one changing ones gender for less than wholesome reasons bearing in mind that officially Sex and Gender tend to be conflated, those under threat of incarceration, if you are facing a spell of in jail changing your gender would actually seem like a very minor price to pay if it meant you were housed in The Dorchas Center rather than Mountjoy, Cork or Portlioas particularly if one had committed an offence that would draw the ire of the prison population.
I'd like to hear a counter argument to this that doesn't involve mud slinging and ridicule because as I am reading this legislation it allows for self determination and also allows for one revision back to a previous gender (so you could revert back legally after your term is finished)

Thirdly

Gender is a social construct (well this would be the current view approved by boards.ie well at least Dav who I will take as the official line) a social construct is not simply a determination by an individual, it also involves a multiplicity of behaviors, roles, characteristics within wider society. As it stands a person may take up a new gender without literally any other change other than a self identification (this feeds into point 2 and too some extent point 1 ).

Fourthly

I know moderation isn't meant to be talked about on thread but seriously saying simply Trans people exist is essentially meaningly because we don't know who or what you are referring to? Should I get banned because I refer to Rory O'Neil as a He when he is in the role of Panti Bliss after all they are assuming a Transgender role. If we're going to do "progressive" thing can we be clear on what terminology is being used because at the minute it seems that if you no nothing at all about the topic its pretty clear whats being meant (because you'l just assume trans means transexual) but if you've a little awareness and and a bit interest in sociology/anthropology its just confusing (or extremely restrictive about whats ok), perhaps its clearer if your extremely well versed but IMO I doubt it.

Fifthly

This will cause issues (maybe a handful of issues but they will exist and may have serious legal repercussions). I mentioned in the other thread that I thought I would be working a while back with a Transgender person who (AFAIK) been denied the ability to transition to become Transexual, they are large and they are attracted to women (I'm not sure which is the correct terminology to use here Lesbian, Straight or gynephillic are all correct or incorrect depending on your view), this has apparently caused issues with some woman when they have demanded to use the womans changing facilities (work will often involve small cramped changing rooms and there may be limited infrastructure so alternaives aren't viable) on previous jobs for the rather obvious reason that they feel uncomfortable changing with a 6 footish anatomical male that may be attracted to them and who has been denied Transition for reasons unknown by trained medical specialists (this is in the UK not Putins Russia).
Under the proposed law they will be able to self declare, under equality legislation they will have to be treated as a woman so either a company will run the risk of being sued or people will be forced to share very close personal space with somebody who makes them uncomfortable and may have mental health issues.
And this is in an industry that composes a workforce that tends to be extremely tolerant and highly educated.

To be clear I am not against Transexual rights and I don't feel the need to cause any undue suffering to people whether they are Transgender, Transexual, hetro or homo but I feel the fact that rather than simply just requiring a legal statement there should be at least some external consultation involved particularly as the state often appears to consider sex and gender the same thing, I don't think its a particularly reactionary stance to take do many trans people feel having to consult a psychiatrist is a major obstacle?

congrats if anybody finishes this monster post!

Wibbs wrote: »

Jenner is being lauded as brave and yea whatever, but for an ordinary person without the shield of money and the rest, that shít's brave alright

I actually think jenner's case might require more bravery than the average person on the street.

She will have to live her life as a woman knowing that everyone is aware of her past as a man.

That fits neatly into the topic of this thread, considering these measures will make it easier for the average anonymous person on the street to hide their history in daily life.

Jenner must walk out the door everyday and not just embrace her present and future life, but also completely own her past too!

She can't hide from any aspect of her reality, past or present. And she'll do it all within the harsh glare of the media!

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Transgender men can give birth.

The post your replying to didn't say man or men though did it and you know the difference if your actually as enlightened as you say it said Human Male, Thomas Trace Beatie may be a Transgender/Transexual man (or just a Man) but they are also a Human Female, they are not a Human Male (unless they are a Chimera which is vanishingly unlikely but potentially possible)

folamh wrote: »

And why doesn't the same go for race?

For some people it does:


:pac: