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Child Item

Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

Links234

http://www.thejournal.ie/trans-rights-ireland-gender-recognition-self-declaration-2141181-Jun2015/

Well this is fairly magnificent news, and a bit of a shock to be honest. I'm still reeling with pride over the marriage ref and now this? I could seriously get used to being proud of my country!

MOD NOTE: Just so this thread doesn't go the way of others, trans people exist. So let's not pretend you're being funny or clever or anything other than insulting when you put their gender in quotation marks to denote that it's not their real gender, call trans people "it", make moronic comparisons such as asking if you can now be called black (see above) or anything else that's just being an a$$hole to other humans.
This includes any "men will claim to be women to get into women's changing rooms" type of rubbish.

If you've a point to make, make it without insulting anyone. It shouldn't be that hard for anyone to do.

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darkpagandeath

folamh wrote: »

Race appropriation; gender appropriation. Both "brave". Doesn't make them right.

That would be Racist or something..

darkpagandeath

Joshua Victorious Vista wrote: »

Or comparable in any meaningful way. It's not gender appropriation if a woman wants to be treated as a woman, regardless of whether she's trans.

Are you saying someone's feeling of being born the wrong race is no less important to them ? Equality and all that you know.

folamh

Race: A biological classification which involves being treated/conditioned a certain by society from birth throughout life.

Gender: A biological classification which involves being treated/conditioned a certain way by society from birth throughout life.

The former is off-limits but the latter is fair game because trans activists have decided it so.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Are you saying someone's feeling of being born the wrong race is no less important to them ? Equality and all that you know.

I'm saying wearing blackface is not something that can be reasonably compared to being openly transgender. Race is biological, gender (as distinct from sex) is not.

The argument that "you're not blindly in favour of everything always being treated exactly the same despite clear and substantive differences between the issues means you're a hypocrite" is not the checkmate against "liberalism" that people seem to think it is.

folamh

Forget wearing blackface. What about transracialism? Couldn't a similar argument be made that race is also a state of mind that people should be free to identify with, as they do with gender? If not, why not?

folamh

electro-bitch, I notice you "thanked" a post where I linked to an article analogizing transgenderism with the fictional phenomenon of people who identity as poor even though they're rich. The idea behind this is that because men and women are socialized differently and bear the effects of their distinct sex-based experiences, it's ridiculous and indeed offensive for one category to claim experiential knowledge of what the other goes through, let alone claim their identity. What did you read into that article?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

folamh wrote: »

Forget wearing blackface. What about transracialism? Couldn't a similar argument be made that race is also a state of mind that people should be free to identify with, as they do with gender? If not, why not?

How can you possibly argue that race is a state of mind though? Or do you mean that race has a counterpart similar to the relationship between sex and gender? At that point we're just talking about cultural appropriation, which is a constant feature of daily life and generally not something that bothers most people

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

folamh wrote: »

electro-bitch, I notice you "thanked" a post where I linked to an article analogizing transgenderism with the fictional phenomenon of people who identity as poor even though they're rich. The idea behind this is that because men and women are socialized differently and bear the effects of their distinct sex-based experiences, it's ridiculous and indeed offensive for one category to claim experiential knowledge of what the other goes through, let alone claim their identity. What did you read into that article?

Reminded me of hipsters, thought it was funny. Rest of the site seems pretty hateful.

folamh

Joshua Victorious Vista wrote: »

How can you possibly argue that race is a state of mind though?

You can't. That's the point.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

folamh wrote: »

You can't. That's the point.

So why are you comparing an argument that can't be made to one that can, and especially why are you doing that like it proves something?

darkpagandeath

Joshua Victorious Vista wrote: »

So why are you comparing an argument that can't be made to one that can, and especially why are you doing that like it proves something?

How tidy, Race is biological so there for you cannot think you are a different race to the one you are.

folamh

Joshua Victorious Vista wrote: »

So why are you comparing an argument that can't be made to one that can, and especially why are you doing that like it proves something?

Why do you think that this argument can be made? Explain the argument that gender (e.g. the female gender) is a mental state that people either male or female should be free to identify with.

one day man

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How tidy, Race is biological so there for you cannot think you are a different race to the one you are.

Michael Jackson wasn't ever a Caucasian man.

Much as he tried.

A transgender man/woman will never give birth.

yes, some women can't either, and make of that what you will.

but reality is blatantly telling you something.

stop this nonsense.

jobbridge4life

one day man wrote: »

Michael Jackson wasn't ever a Caucasian man.

Much as he tried.

A transgender man/woman will never give birth.

yes, some women can't either, and make of that what you will.

but reality is blatantly telling you something.

stop this nonsense.

Michael Jackson never claimed to think/feel/want to be white. Argument closed.

A transgender man has already given birth.

Soon two men will be able to conceive by themselves with the assistance of science.

Give up. Your nonsense has failed you and will continue to do so in even more embarrassing terms.

RDM_83 again

There seems to be some really unusual logic going on in terms of this legislation and in terms how AH wants to moderate this thread.

Firstly -
Terminology, to quote Lyaiera, who's a poster that should know this sort of thing

Lyaiera wrote: »

Transgender is really the umbrella term that includes crossdressers, genderqueer, drag queens, etc. (and there's often debate over that.)

Now I'l probably get called a bigot for saying this but among some of those communities there is some individuals for whom this activity is has a sexual/fetish component.

Secondly
There is at least one reason I can immediately think of for one changing ones gender for less than wholesome reasons bearing in mind that officially Sex and Gender tend to be conflated, those under threat of incarceration, if you are facing a spell of in jail changing your gender would actually seem like a very minor price to pay if it meant you were housed in The Dorchas Center rather than Mountjoy, Cork or Portlioas particularly if one had committed an offence that would draw the ire of the prison population.
I'd like to hear a counter argument to this that doesn't involve mud slinging and ridicule because as I am reading this legislation it allows for self determination and also allows for one revision back to a previous gender (so you could revert back legally after your term is finished)

Thirdly

Gender is a social construct (well this would be the current view approved by boards.ie well at least Dav who I will take as the official line) a social construct is not simply a determination by an individual, it also involves a multiplicity of behaviors, roles, characteristics within wider society. As it stands a person may take up a new gender without literally any other change other than a self identification (this feeds into point 2 and too some extent point 1 ).

Fourthly

I know moderation isn't meant to be talked about on thread but seriously saying simply Trans people exist is essentially meaningly because we don't know who or what you are referring to? Should I get banned because I refer to Rory O'Neil as a He when he is in the role of Panti Bliss after all they are assuming a Transgender role. If we're going to do "progressive" thing can we be clear on what terminology is being used because at the minute it seems that if you no nothing at all about the topic its pretty clear whats being meant (because you'l just assume trans means transexual) but if you've a little awareness and and a bit interest in sociology/anthropology its just confusing (or extremely restrictive about whats ok), perhaps its clearer if your extremely well versed but IMO I doubt it.

Fifthly

This will cause issues (maybe a handful of issues but they will exist and may have serious legal repercussions). I mentioned in the other thread that I thought I would be working a while back with a Transgender person who (AFAIK) been denied the ability to transition to become Transexual, they are large and they are attracted to women (I'm not sure which is the correct terminology to use here Lesbian, Straight or gynephillic are all correct or incorrect depending on your view), this has apparently caused issues with some woman when they have demanded to use the womans changing facilities (work will often involve small cramped changing rooms and there may be limited infrastructure so alternaives aren't viable) on previous jobs for the rather obvious reason that they feel uncomfortable changing with a 6 footish anatomical male that may be attracted to them and who has been denied Transition for reasons unknown by trained medical specialists (this is in the UK not Putins Russia).
Under the proposed law they will be able to self declare, under equality legislation they will have to be treated as a woman so either a company will run the risk of being sued or people will be forced to share very close personal space with somebody who makes them uncomfortable and may have mental health issues.
And this is in an industry that composes a workforce that tends to be extremely tolerant and highly educated.

To be clear I am not against Transexual rights and I don't feel the need to cause any undue suffering to people whether they are Transgender, Transexual, hetro or homo but I feel the fact that rather than simply just requiring a legal statement there should be at least some external consultation involved particularly as the state often appears to consider sex and gender the same thing, I don't think its a particularly reactionary stance to take do many trans people feel having to consult a psychiatrist is a major obstacle?

congrats if anybody finishes this monster post!

folamh

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Michael Jackson never claimed to think/feel/want to be white. Argument closed.

Of course he didn't. Because it's ridiculous and racist.

A transgender man has already given birth.

Because she's female.

Annasopra

P_1 wrote: »

I'm in two minds over the birth cert element. On the one hand seeing the wrong gender on their birth cert has the potential to cause all sorts of bother for a trans person (painful memories and whatnot) on the other it is recording a historical fact. Perhaps it might be worth introducing 2 types of a birth cert, a historical record one and a day to day one.

That is exactly what is being proposed.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

folamh wrote: »

Why do you think that this argument can be made? Explain the argument that gender (e.g. the female gender) is a mental state that people either male or female should be free to identify with.

Mental state is a bit of a reductive term, perhaps. A deeply felt sense of who one is would probably be closer. I know with absolute certainty that I'm female, I don't know any trans women very well but I've never gotten the impression that they feel any differently on that front than I do. The female gender is not a finite resource that needs to be protected and made the exclusive property of those of us born with the right bits, there's plenty to go around.

folamh

Joshua Victorious Vista wrote: »

Mental state is a bit of a reductive term, perhaps. A deeply felt sense of who one is would probably be closer. I know with absolute certainty that I'm female, I don't know any trans women very well but I've never gotten the impression that they feel any differently on that front than I do. The female gender is not a finite resource that needs to be protected and made the exclusive property of those of us born with the right bits, there's plenty to go around.

And why doesn't the same go for race?

one day man

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Michael Jackson never claimed to think/feel/want to be white. Argument closed.

A transgender man has already given birth.

Soon two men will be able to conceive by themselves with the assistance of science.

Give up. Your nonsense has failed you and will continue to do so in even more embarrassing terms.

human males do not give birth.

stop the madness.

ThinkProgress

Wibbs wrote: »

Jenner is being lauded as brave and yea whatever, but for an ordinary person without the shield of money and the rest, that shít's brave alright

I actually think jenner's case might require more bravery than the average person on the street.

She will have to live her life as a woman knowing that everyone is aware of her past as a man.

That fits neatly into the topic of this thread, considering these measures will make it easier for the average anonymous person on the street to hide their history in daily life.

Jenner must walk out the door everyday and not just embrace her present and future life, but also completely own her past too!

She can't hide from any aspect of her reality, past or present. And she'll do it all within the harsh glare of the media!

Annasopra

one day man wrote: »

human males do not give birth.

stop the madness.

Transgender men can give birth.

one day man

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Transgender men can give birth.

which just goes to show they are not male.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

folamh wrote: »

And why doesn't the same go for race?

There aren't different pronouns, toilet facilities, proscribed behaviours and standards of dress and appearance for race I suppose. Gender is a lens which affects the self-perception and treatment of everyone, and it's (conceived of as) binary, race is not. Ideally, a person is not going to be treated any different regardless of how other people perceive their race, the same is not true of gender and never will be.

RDM_83 again

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Transgender men can give birth.

The post your replying to didn't say man or men though did it and you know the difference if your actually as enlightened as you say

it said Human Male, Thomas Trace Beatie may be a Transgender/Transexual man (or just a Man) but they are also a Human Female, they are not a Human Male (unless they are a Chimera which is vanishingly unlikely but potentially possible)

oppenheimer1

kunst nugget wrote: »

Are they not allowed to contribute to other forums? Seems like it was big enough news that they wanted to share it on a more popular and general forum.

But you're right, it's really part of the LGBT agenda to make you gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender…

Posting for traffic is not allowed, but since this shows how "progressive" we are I'm sure it's OK.

The whole idea behind this legislation was because Lydia Foy won her case in the supreme court. She contended that her right to medical privacy was infringed by having a birth certificate that didn't match her gender and the supreme court agreed. The state is required to legislate for this.

The concern the state had was that allowing people to alter their birth cert would destroy the integrity of the records, and to a certain extent I agree. So it's good to see that the original record will be kept with the change noted. The idea that the birth certificate should be reissued is a bit silly though since now it is not a reliable record of the facts at the time of birth. A way around this would be to issue an identity certificate that can be altered to the present facts, where things like name and gender could be edited. Make it an offence for anyone to demand to see a birth cert.

The self assessment of gender in the law is a bit strange tbh. Perhaps the government felt their hands were tied by the judgement that it would even be a breach of privacy to force someone to come out even to a doctor. There are ways in which this could be abused in theory as outlined on the thread but you cannot talk about it for fear of upsetting the happy clappy mood.

All in all a good day for transgendered people though. They aren't harming anyone so live and let live

KomradeBishop

folamh wrote: »

And why doesn't the same go for race?

For some people it does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N68t7NvuTgQ

:pac:

RDM_83 again

RDM_83 again wrote: »

they are not a Human Male (unless they are a Chimera which is vanishingly unlikely but potentially possible)

Thinking about it I suppose they would be male if you argued to define male strictly on neurology but if you go down that line too far AFAIK you might actually have to create a 3rd sex for gynophilic transexual M to F as they show a different brain structure again.

Annasopra

RDM_83 again wrote: »

The post your replying to didn't say man or men though did it and you know the difference if your actually as enlightened as you say it said Human Male, Thomas Trace Beatie may be a Transgender/Transexual man (or just a Man) but they are also a Human Female, they are not a Human Male (unless they are a Chimera which is vanishingly unlikely but potentially possible)

Nice. Let's dehumanise trans people.

RDM_83 again

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Nice. Let's dehumanise trans people.

How is that dehumanising them (nice to see you exactly illustrate the lazy smear tactic ), I am fine with considering them a man, if I met them I would say sir mr him etc those are social forms, the male female binary when your talking to reproduction isnt political social or whatever its fact! (as i said neurologically maybe but your talking about reproduction here)

Edit:In case you dont get it if you deliberately went around saying male/female as inappropriate it would be dehumanising human males not producing eggs or having viable wombs isnt!