Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

darkpagandeath · 04-06-2015 05:40PM

Clearlier wrote: »

What kind of discrimination do you suffer from the original entry of your Dad's profession? The new birth cert is for functional not historical purposes.

Does a piece of paper change your genome ? Sex is not Gender.

ThinkProgress · 04-06-2015 05:42PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You need to lay off the rewriting history nonsense.

We are allowing transgender people to get passports and other identification documents that show their correct gender if they wish to do so. Perhaps not all of them wish to stand on the frontline of the battle to be accepted. they just want to live their lives. what is wrong with that?

Funny you should mention Asia as the transgender people there (or in thailand at least) do not have this option. their ID cards all say their gender at birth. It is not possible for them to get an ID card which lists them as their correct gender. The are not as accepted and embraced as you think.

In an everyday respect, transgender individuals are FAR more accepted for who they are in parts of Asia than anywhere else.

Of course they still have work to do at a govt level - but at least they don't have to lie and conceal their past like in most other places!

Lying and covering things up is very rarely the solution to a complex problem like this one!

The discrimination will still remain as an undercurrent within society until people stand up to it and tackle it head on!

We're encouraging people to hide from the bigotry - that won't work in the long run.

Crooked Jack · 04-06-2015 05:45PM

Clearlier wrote: »

What kind of discrimination do you suffer from the original entry of your Dad's profession? The new birth cert is for functional not historical purposes.

And what function is not served by a document during transition that allows all your ID, documents, passes etc... from now on to clearly and unambiguously state your preferred gender.

Issuing new birth certificates in no way stops discrimination and makes a farce out of official state documents.

I dont see how this point can be any clearer (or clearlier) Your birth certificate records the facts at the time of your birth. That is it. It records your sex, not your gender, which is (except for cases of hermaphrodites) fairly indisputable.

KomradeBishop · 04-06-2015 05:50PM

If this thread wasn't controversial enough, it'd be interesting to see what a thread on transableism would be like; would be the mother of all "combined gender/welfare-bigot"-troll threads:
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/becoming-disabled-by-choice-not-chance-transabled-people-feel-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies

An interesting (if only barely related) topic though - had not heard of transableism before reading that.

darkpagandeath · 04-06-2015 05:55PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If this thread wasn't controversial enough, it'd be interesting to see what a thread on transableism would be like; would be the mother of all "combined gender/welfare-bigot"-troll threads:
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/becoming-disabled-by-choice-not-chance-transabled-people-feel-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies

An interesting (if only barely related) topic though - had not heard of transableism before reading that.

I can imagine heads imploding.

zeffabelli · 04-06-2015 05:59PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If this thread wasn't controversial enough, it'd be interesting to see what a thread on transableism would be like; would be the mother of all "combined gender/welfare-bigot"-troll threads:
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/becoming-disabled-by-choice-not-chance-transabled-people-feel-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies

An interesting (if only barely related) topic though - had not heard of transableism before reading that.

I wonder if consensual reality will ever make a come back.

Maybe in the future I can decide I am Swahili and my body is betraying me and pursue DNa transplants.

Knasher · 04-06-2015 06:01PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

So encouraging transgender people to lie about their history and help them to erase and conceal it... That's the big clever solution to the problem of discrimination?

There is a difference between giving somebody the autonomy to fight the battles they choose, and forcing them to be public. And if being public was a panacea against discrimination, then there wouldn't be discrimination around things like race.

Clearlier · 04-06-2015 06:10PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Does a piece of paper change your genome ? Sex is not Gender.

I'm aware of that argument. It's quite clear that in everyday life the two are conflated.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

And what function is not served by a document during transition that allows all your ID, documents, passes etc... from now on to clearly and unambiguously state your preferred gender.

That document that you referred to sounds to me awfully like the new birth cert. Perhaps the problem here is just semantic and you'd be satisfied by the renaming of the new birth certificate as something like the new identity card? I wouldn't see any issues with having the birth certificate relegated to a historical document and replaced in daily life with an identity document i.e. birth certificate is not required to be produced for anything whatsoever. It would have to apply to every single person though not just to the transgender minority in order for it to avoid discrimination. It would incur a fairly significant cost to the state which I don't think is merited. It would be a waste of money IMO but I wouldn't passionately object to it.

suicide_circus · 04-06-2015 06:10PM

awec wrote: »

No, a fair hearing is one where people who make arguments against this are not labelled (either subtly or not so subtly) as just intolerant people with hidden agendas. Don't know where this notion that I want people to agree with me comes from seeing as I have no issue with this change whatsoever.

Person 1: "We've introduced a new policy of xyz"
Person 2: "hmm, I have reservations"
Person 1: "Of course you do, you just hate us don't you? Typical bigotry"

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55389765.jpg

Wibbs · 04-06-2015 06:11PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If this thread wasn't controversial enough, it'd be interesting to see what a thread on transableism would be like; would be the mother of all "combined gender/welfare-bigot"-troll threads:
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/becoming-disabled-by-choice-not-chance-transabled-people-feel-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies

An interesting (if only barely related) topic though - had not heard of transableism before reading that.

Bloody hell. Never heard of that before either. That's a terrible kind of dysmorphia. Apparently a brain body mapping disorder, whereas transgender would be more a brain gender mismatch disorder. It must be beyond imaginable when someone will take a power tool to a body part to feel normal.

Surely there must be avenues to at least try to treat this condition? Occupational therapy, maybe drugs that would help the body remap with new neuron pathways?

This part is troubling mind you. amputation may help someone achieve similar goals as someone who, say, undergoes cosmetic surgery to look more like who they believe their ideal selves to be. Where does society draw the line?

I found Camille Paglia's angle on transgender interesting, where she thinks there may be too much pressure brought to bear on some with the condition to transition. She herself admits she felt out of place in her body and feels that if she was growing up today she might feel somehow pressured into transitioning. I personally see where she's coming from and I suspect some transgender folks could fall into this alright, but I doubt it's close to all. I would worry if such pressures or treatments are given to children though, as is already on the go in the US with the parents often egging it on. It's way too big a step for a child IMH. Though on the other side of that it would get much better results in an adult if for example hormone therapy started before the onset of puberty. Hard call.

StewartGriffin · 04-06-2015 06:13PM

I'm a hairy man trapped in a bald man's body. :mad:

ThinkProgress · 04-06-2015 06:17PM

Knasher wrote: »

There is a difference between giving somebody the autonomy to fight the battles they choose, and forcing them to be public. And if being public was a panacea against discrimination, then there wouldn't be discrimination around things like race.

It's up to society as a whole to protect minorities.

I think there is plenty of evidence in this country that we have the potential to be one of the most tolerant in the world.

But measures such as these don't help create a culture of tolerance and acceptance. They teach people to hide and be ashamed of their past.

It's an acknowledgement that certain people don't think we as a nation, are capable of accepting transgender people for who they are. So it's easier to just lie to us and hide it from view!

Quite a damning indictment of us, so soon after we showed the watching world how we felt about the SSM issue!

folamh · 04-06-2015 06:21PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If this thread wasn't controversial enough, it'd be interesting to see what a thread on transableism would be like; would be the mother of all "combined gender/welfare-bigot"-troll threads:
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/becoming-disabled-by-choice-not-chance-transabled-people-feel-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies

An interesting (if only barely related) topic though - had not heard of transableism before reading that.

I am uberpoor. https://feministsunknown.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/i-am-uberpoor/

KomradeBishop · 04-06-2015 06:32PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Bloody hell. Never heard of that before either. That's a terrible kind of dysmorphia. Apparently a brain body mapping disorder, whereas transgender would be more a brain gender mismatch disorder. It must be beyond imaginable when someone will take a power tool to a body part to feel normal.

Surely there must be avenues to at least try to treat this condition? Occupational therapy, maybe drugs that would help the body remap with new neuron pathways?

This part is troubling mind you. amputation may help someone achieve similar goals as someone who, say, undergoes cosmetic surgery to look more like who they believe their ideal selves to be. Where does society draw the line?

I found Camille Paglia's angle on transgender interesting, where she thinks there may be too much pressure brought to bear on some with the condition to transition. She herself admits she felt out of place in her body and feels that if she was growing up today she might feel somehow pressured into transitioning. I personally see where she's coming from and I suspect some transgender folks could fall into this alright, but I doubt it's close to all. I would worry if such pressures or treatments are given to children though, as is already on the go in the US with the parents often egging it on. It's way too big a step for a child IMH. Though on the other side of that it would get much better results in an adult if for example hormone therapy started before the onset of puberty. Hard call.

Ya the problem is, the brain is still very much a 'black box' as far as science is concerned, so there's no clear way to differentiate or define a 'disorder', from a genuine condition that should have societal acceptance, in cases like this.

On transgender kids, Louis Theroux just recently did a very good documentary on that.

KomradeBishop · 04-06-2015 06:35PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

I wonder if consensual reality will ever make a come back.

Maybe in the future I can decide I am Swahili and my body is betraying me and pursue DNa transplants.

Ya that's what I find most interesting about these kinds of things, it's very challenging to try and figure out where to draw the line (or whether it's even possible to draw one)

Knasher · 04-06-2015 06:35PM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

It's an acknowledgement that certain people don't think we as a nation, are capable of accepting transgender people for who they are. So it's easier to just lie to us and hide it from view!

I agree, at least, that is is an acknowledgement that large portions of society don't accept transgendered people. And yes I do think it will be easy for transgendered people if they have the option to hide if they so choose.

Although I think you have a far more optimistic view on how one goes about ending discrimination, than I. Either way, this is something that was lobbied for by transgendered people, and I think it is best that they decide how they will fight the discrimination they face.

P_1 · 04-06-2015 06:38PM

I'm in two minds over the birth cert element. On the one hand seeing the wrong gender on their birth cert has the potential to cause all sorts of bother for a trans person (painful memories and whatnot) on the other it is recording a historical fact. Perhaps it might be worth introducing 2 types of a birth cert, a historical record one and a day to day one.

Clearlier · 04-06-2015 06:40PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Bloody hell. Never heard of that before either. That's a terrible kind of dysmorphia. Apparently a brain body mapping disorder, whereas transgender would be more a brain gender mismatch disorder. It must be beyond imaginable when someone will take a power tool to a body part to feel normal.

Surely there must be avenues to at least try to treat this condition? Occupational therapy, maybe drugs that would help the body remap with new neuron pathways?

This part is troubling mind you. amputation may help someone achieve similar goals as someone who, say, undergoes cosmetic surgery to look more like who they believe their ideal selves to be. Where does society draw the line?

I found Camille Paglia's angle on transgender interesting, where she thinks there may be too much pressure brought to bear on some with the condition to transition. She herself admits she felt out of place in her body and feels that if she was growing up today she might feel somehow pressured into transitioning. I personally see where she's coming from and I suspect some transgender folks could fall into this alright, but I doubt it's close to all. I would worry if such pressures or treatments are given to children though, as is already on the go in the US with the parents often egging it on. It's way too big a step for a child IMH. Though on the other side of that it would get much better results in an adult if for example hormone therapy started before the onset of puberty. Hard call.

One key difference I noted from the article was that it said that they wanted to be included in the DSM whereas transgender people want it removed. I'm not that aware of DSM but I interpret that as meaning people with transableism want it seen as a psychiatric disorder/condition whereas transgender people want it to be removed from the list of disorders/conditions.

Knasher · 04-06-2015 06:41PM

P_1 wrote: »

I'm in two minds over the birth cert element. On the one hand seeing the wrong gender on their birth cert has the potential to cause all sorts of bother for a trans person (painful memories and whatnot) on the other it is recording a historical fact. Perhaps it might be worth introducing 2 types of a birth cert, a historical record one and a day to day one.

That is what is happening.

Clearlier · 04-06-2015 06:41PM

P_1 wrote: »

I'm in two minds over the birth cert element. On the one hand seeing the wrong gender on their birth cert has the potential to cause all sorts of bother for a trans person (painful memories and whatnot) on the other it is recording a historical fact. Perhaps it might be worth introducing 2 types of a birth cert, a historical record one and a day to day one.

That's what is proposed.

Wibbs · 04-06-2015 06:41PM

Me, I'd get rid of the different labels to some degree anyway. Keep it simple. Clearly any dysmorphia is a "disorder" to some degree. By near definition it's beyond the norm and causes suffering to those living with it. Whether that be anorexia, or transableism, or more "minor" issues where people are unnaturally obsessed with their nose, wrinkles, whatever, even the size and shape of their genitals(I say minor, but such obsessions can sometimes lead to suicide, so not so minor) and yes I'd personally put transsexuality under that umbrella of conditions. How we help those sufferers is what matters. But IMH we have to be careful, especially with surgeries where there is no going back. Doubly so in the young. If amputation, or surgical blinding helps someone with transableism should we do it? I am soooo not so sure about that.

Yea I've just today checked out Louis documentary. Some of it was a little troubling to me TBH.

P_1 · 04-06-2015 06:45PM

Knasher wrote: »

That is what is happening.

Clearlier wrote: »

That's what is proposed.

Ah fair enough in that case, can't really argue with anything that's happening here so save for feeling even more pride at living here so.

P_1 · 04-06-2015 06:48PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Me, I'd get rid of the different labels to some degree anyway. Keep it simple. Clearly any dysmorphia is a "disorder" to some degree. By near definition it's beyond the norm and causes suffering to those living with it. Whether that be anorexia, or transableism, or more "minor" issues where people are unnaturally obsessed with their nose, wrinkles, whatever, even the size and shape of their genitals(I say minor, but such obsessions can sometimes lead to suicide, so not so minor) and yes I'd personally put transsexuality under that umbrella of conditions. How we help those sufferers is what matters. But IMH we have to be careful, especially with surgeries where there is no going back. Doubly so in the young. If amputation, or surgical blinding helps someone with transableism should we do it? I am soooo not so sure about that.

Yea I've just today checked out Louis documentary. Some of it was a little troubling to me TBH.

W to be honest with you I'd tend to find myself in agreement with most things you'd say here but in this case I find a rare thing, a disagreement. We've got a long history on this island of brushing things that deviate from the norm under the carpet (or even worse) now perhaps we might be swinging a bit too rapidly towards the other side now but in my eyes there's not a lot of harm in a bit of over-correction.

KomradeBishop · 04-06-2015 06:55PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Me, I'd get rid of the different labels to some degree anyway. Keep it simple. Clearly any dysmorphia is a "disorder" to some degree. By near definition it's beyond the norm and causes suffering to those living with it. Whether that be anorexia, or transableism, or more "minor" issues where people are unnaturally obsessed with their nose, wrinkles, whatever, even the size and shape of their genitals(I say minor, but such obsessions can sometimes lead to suicide, so not so minor) and yes I'd personally put transsexuality under that umbrella of conditions. How we help those sufferers is what matters. But IMH we have to be careful, especially with surgeries where there is no going back. Doubly so in the young. If amputation, or surgical blinding helps someone with transableism should we do it? I am soooo not so sure about that.

Yea I've just today checked out Louis documentary. Some of it was a little troubling to me TBH.

I don't know if I agree with classifying such conditions at all in one sense - there are some huge issues with the DSM, historically and presently - I think it gets into risky territory when classifying something as a 'disorder' at all, given the history of using this to discriminate against people.

It is a difficult topic though, trying to wrangle with and figure out what way to approach different cases, is very tricky.

Wibbs · 04-06-2015 07:04PM

Clearlier wrote: »

One key difference I noted from the article was that it said that they wanted to be included in the DSM whereas transgender people want it removed. I'm not that aware of DSM but I interpret that as meaning people with transableism want it seen as a psychiatric disorder/condition whereas transgender people want it to be removed from the list of disorders/conditions.

Seems to be the case. I would remove it as a mental illness and it has been AFAIK, but it is clearly a disorder with different posited causes and different types of trans individuals. EG some have a mistake in the chromosomes that make them intersex, many of whom don't even realise until later in life when they find themselves infertile for example. I read a few years back of a woman and an extremely attractive one to boot, who while to all intents and purposes a heterosexual adult woman with all the bits and bobs was in the chromosome dept quite a bit "male" IIRC she was XXY(xx-female/xy=male). IIRC again you can have men with a similar kinda thing going on. And there are all sorts of other intersex conditions, from undeveloped reproductive organs to extremely rare cases where there is a vestigial secondary reproductive setup*.

The chromosomal and obviously physical are "easy" disorders to map, but as KomradeBishop said the brain is a black box and our understanding is still quite limited, so with folks who are male or female in every measurable way, but feel very strongly their opposite in gender is a far harder nut to crack and even more nuanced.

P_1 wrote:

W to be honest with you I'd tend to find myself in agreement with most things you'd say here but in this case I find a rare thing, a disagreement. We've got a long history on this island of brushing things that deviate from the norm under the carpet (or even worse) now perhaps we might be swinging a bit too rapidly towards the other side now but in my eyes there's not a lot of harm in a bit of over-correction.

Oh no, I do see what you mean P. I think the problem is more in the language and perception of the words used. So "disorder" while accurate and descriptive also feels like "lesser". If you're a sufferer of anything that lays enough outside the normative, you're likely to feel lesser anyway so that just copper fastens it. Worse if it's something that can't be easily hidden. I dunno how you can navigate that too easily though. It would be silly to wilfully ignore a scientific and medical description, while seeking out the same scientific and medical field for approbation. Hard one.

I will say I do have serious admiration for transexuals as far as social bravery goes. To go out in the world and potentially stand out in the world that seeks conformity as somehow different in gender, really takes some fcuking stones(no pun) it has to be said. Jenner is being lauded as brave and yea whatever, but for an ordinary person without the shield of money and the rest, that shít's brave alright.

*the unborn twin that grew in the body of the other. Extra head and other body parts can sometimes happen too. There's a man with two functional willies believe it or not.

folamh · 04-06-2015 07:09PM

Blacking up and going for a breakdance with Pat Kenny is also brave.

Penny Tration · 04-06-2015 07:12PM

Is the Louis documentary on Netflix?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 04-06-2015 07:19PM

folamh wrote: »

Blacking up and going for a breakdance with Pat Kenny is also brave.

wha?

folamh · 04-06-2015 07:21PM

Joshua Victorious Vista wrote: »

wha?

Race appropriation; gender appropriation. Both "brave". Doesn't make them right.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 04-06-2015 07:24PM

folamh wrote: »

Race appropriation; gender appropriation. Both "brave". Doesn't make them right.

Or comparable in any meaningful way. It's not gender appropriation if a woman wants to be treated as a woman, regardless of whether she's trans.

Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

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