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Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

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Comments

  • #242
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    We've gone way off topic now though, I've said my bit and will bow out. :)


  • #243
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    jimgoose wrote: »
    Does any other jurisdiction allow this? It strikes me as rather odd as well. :confused:

    Germany will issue a new birth cert.


  • #244
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    awec wrote: »
    Well, that seems to be the declaration in this thread.

    Waste of time continuing the discussion, because anyone against this has no chance of a fair hearing.
    Ahh jayzuz A you know you can't question near religious fervour of your "progressives", ever adding to their catechism of what's acceptable in the new church(unquestioned and rapturous support is the gist of it though). Hell they even have their patron saint and martyr now in Jenner, iconography and all. Though attention spans tend to run short these days, about the length of a Facebook comments page, so cue another month and it'll be "who?" and onto another new defence of dogma. What have we had so far this year? Gamergate, edited footage of street harassment are two off the top of my head. The marriage referendum was pretty much a non issue, but also had all sorts of hysterical stuff attached on both sides.

    While the interwebs have brought more and more of this stuff of all types to the fore, it's transitory and most of all the vast majority of people in the real world barely register nor are concerned about it.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #245
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Pretty sure andrew said most views on this thread came from a place of ignorance or bigotry before awec brought it up.

    I don't think so.
    awec wrote: »
    It's actually impossible to have real debates about these things though, because on one side you have irrational hatred of members of the LGBT community and on the other side you have people who are just absolutely unwilling to have their point of view questioned and anyone who disagrees with them is just intolerant or a bigot.
    awec wrote: »
    We've gone way off topic now though, I've said my bit and will bow out. :)

    Largely because it turned into a bigot vs liberal thread. Maybe now it will resume normal business.


  • #246
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    Daith wrote: »
    No they're men or women.

    Science and medicine says you're wrong!

    They're transgender men and women.

    We're encouraging lies. And we're subcontiously telling people they should be ashamed of their past by hiding it.

    Yet we're given completely the opposite message from media and rights groups!


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  • #247
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    awec wrote: »
    No, a fair hearing is one where people who make arguments against this are not labelled

    That's the part of this thread that is really missing though. One argument was put forward, the historical accuracy one, which I think is fair to say has been thoroughly addressed, given that the historical record isn't changed.

    And two positions were put forward. Firstly that transgendered people should be labelled as such. Personally I think the objection to that should be pretty obvious, that transgendered people are a tiny minority and do face discrimination and that forcing them to be public will only invite that type of discrimination onto them. There hasn't been an argument put forward to support this position, it has simply been stated as an opinion.

    The second position put forward is that one can't state their arguments without being labelled. There is some truth to that, but also a lot wrong about it, mostly it is the confusion between argument and position. Stating your position without an argument is what gets you labelled, if you state an argument, then people will focus on that, and try to pick it apart to convince you to their side. The ironic part is that people are only too happy to share their positions, but refuse to share their arguments.


  • #248
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    Science and medicine says you're wrong!

    No they're men and women.


  • #249
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Daith wrote: »
    Indeed but for a person who does believe they were born a different gender having the State validate that with a cert would be tremendous and positive I think.

    how many times? The birth cert does not record gender. It records sex. Sexual organs, reproductive system, xx/xy, all that jazz. If the state updates all present and future documentation then it indeed validating their gender to the fullest possible extent.


  • #250
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    how many times? The birth cert does not record gender. It records sex. Sexual organs, reproductive system, xx/xy, all that jazz. If the state updates all present and future documentation then it indeed validating their gender to the fullest possible extent.

    And the Birth Cert is used in Ireland to identify sex and gender. Maybe it shouldn't?


  • #251
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Daith wrote: »
    I don't think so.

    Post 188

    Post 192


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  • #252
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Links234 wrote: »
    I'll go out on a limb and say that maybe some folks might have issues with transgender people, or may not like us as a group on the whole, but want to be a bit on the down low about it and so use this avenue of criticism. Just a guess?

    I cant help but take exception to being accused of being some sort of stealth ninja bigot


  • #253
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Post 188

    Post 192

    There's a difference between everyone being labelled a bigot because you disagree and the varying responses in this thread.


  • #254
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,927 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Knasher wrote: »
    That's the part of this thread that is really missing though. One argument was put forward, the historical accuracy one, which I think is fair to say has been thoroughly addressed, given that the historical record isn't changed.

    And two positions were put forward. Firstly that transgendered people should be labelled as such. Personally I think the object to that should be pretty obvious, that transgendered people are a tiny minority and do face discrimination and that forcing them to be public will only invite that type of discrimination onto them. There hasn't been an argument put forward to support this position, it has simply been stated as an opinion.

    The second position put forward is that one can't state their arguments without being labelled. There is some truth to that, but also a lot wrong about it, firstly it is the confusion between argument and position. Stating your position without an argument is what gets you labelled, if you state an argument, then people will focus on that, and try to pick it apart to convince you to their side. The ironic part is that people are only too happy to share their positions, but refuse to share their arguments.

    thats because they dont actually have any. or none that stand up to any scrutiny. it is the SSM thread all over again. I really don't understand how the transgender posting on the thread can stomach the bile that spewed forth.


  • #255
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Daith wrote: »
    Has anyone being called a bigot here?

    Quite frankly there's being more nonsense about REWRITING HISTORY than anything.

    someone put up a link pages ago showing that that the original birth cert wouldnt be altered. It has long been accepted that isnt the case. You just keep harping on about it because you cant answer very relevant questions about sex v gender


  • #256
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    Daith wrote: »
    No they're men and women.

    You seem to be struggling for any kind of strong response, beyond repeating yourself like a child who's not getting their way!


  • #257
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    someone put up a link pages ago showing that that the original birth cert wouldnt be altered. It has long been accepted that isnt the case.

    No the original cert isn't being altered. There will be two.


  • #258
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    You seem to be struggling for any kind of strong response, beyond repeating yourself like a child who's not getting their way!

    Sometimes the most correct answers are the simplest. You can quit with the insults though.

    They're not a third gender.


  • #259
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    This is a big victory for pragmatism and reality and a far more humane side of Ireland.

    People are born with all sorts of slight variations on the male / female side of things. There's really no point in making them feel miserable about it for the rest of their days because you've some dogmatic view that the world has to operate the way you think it should.


  • #260
    andrew
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    awec wrote: »
    Except the last two statements in this happened the other way around in this thread.

    When someone makes incredibly bad and transparent arguments like 'what if men go into womens changing rooms' then yeah, I think it makes sense to skip straight to the 'you're a bigot/phobic' stage, because to make such a stupid argument you've got to be a bigot/phobic, or stupid.

    For example, that particular argument is a bad/bigoted on serveral levels:
    1. it implies that there won't be/aren't controls in place to ensure someone actually is trans, which there can be.
    2. It implies that the process will be easy, which it won't be. Since when has changing your name been easy, let alone your gender. Nobody will have an incentive to go through the process of changing their gender just to be a perv.
    3. It implies that there are so many people who'd change their gender for bad purposes that the system would be unworkable, which is stupid.
    4. It implies that the only way to prevent that problem would be to prevent people from changing their gender legally in the first place, which is also stupid.
    5. It implies that that the potential for that problem is so bad that it's worse than people going without their gender being recognised, which is also stupid.
    6. It's general fear mongering and a non-issue.
    So either the person making that argument is so stupid that they didn't consider any of the above points, or they're a bigot. I don't see how anyone could make that argument in good faith. Hence, people skip to '...you're a bigot.'

    Similarly, if someone could explain why absolute accuracy (for some definition of accuracy) in birth certs is more important than making a large number of Trans people significantly happier, I'd like to hear it.


  • #261
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Daith wrote: »
    Same way it will work if any birth cert has an error I suspect. Birth Cert is private and generally only used in specific cases for ID.

    But you just made a huge deal out of the fact that the birth cert is not altered. A new one is issued. When there's a mistake on a birth cert it is altered. They dont keep an old inaccurate one on file


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  • #262
    DeadHand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    how the transgender posting on the thread can stomach the bile that spewed forth.

    Bile, you say? Oh, dear.

    Do you mean like this...
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    are something i would expect from the 12 year old kids on 4Chan.
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    it does draw the bigots out from under their rocks, so there is that.


  • #263
    Clearlier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    Biologically they are not the gender they have transitioned to. That's a medical and scientific fact.

    They are transgender men or women.

    This is a fact that should be acknowledged and done so with complete transparency.

    They should be proud of it and not hide it or try to erase it from history!

    Otherwise we are being lied to by the media and lgbt groups, who tell us there is nothing to be ashamed about.

    That's complete hypocrisy. And it's a slippery slope into ever increasing dishonesty when your govt actually helps and encourages you to conceal your past!

    There's quite a difference between having nothing to be ashamed about and not wanting to tell people that you're transgender.

    So far as I can tell people who are transgender don't identify transgender so much as the opposite sex to which they were born. They don't want to be a third gender.

    When they have to provide official documentation for example as part of a passport application they want that documentation to show up as their chosen gender. I don't get what's so unreasonable about that. Some people have mentioned changing history but it clearly doesn't as the original birth certificate is kept. The new birth certificate is a functional not an historical document.

    It's not hypocritical. What is hypocritical is saying that transgendered people can do whatever they like but then insist on them revealing this aspect of their identity.


  • #264
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,927 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    DeadHand wrote: »
    Bile, you say? Oh, dear.

    Do you mean like this...

    they are simply statements of fact.


  • #265
    andrew
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Pretty sure andrew said most views on this thread came from a place of ignorance or bigotry before awec brought it up.

    No, I said that the responses in this thread run the gamut from ignorance to bigotry. So, there's a range there, and this thread contains many posts from along that range. Obviously, there are posts in this thread outside of that range which are neither ignorant nor bigoted, and I wasn't saying that most views came from a place of ignorance or bigotry.


  • #266
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    Knasher wrote: »
    And two positions were put forward. Firstly that transgendered people should be labelled as such. Personally I think the objection to that should be pretty obvious, that transgendered people are a tiny minority and do face discrimination and that forcing them to be public will only invite that type of discrimination onto them. There hasn't been an argument put forward to support this position, it has simply been stated as an opinion.

    So encouraging transgender people to lie about their history and help them to erase and conceal it... That's the big clever solution to the problem of discrimination?

    Tackle the discrimination in society. Eradicate trans phobia. Don't create a culture of lying and re-writing of history!

    Look to Asia the way transgender people are increasingly being accepted and are becoming embraced by many for who they are: Transgender men and women!

    We are being given hypocritical mixed messages in this country, which is NOT going to further the progress of this minority group!


  • #267
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Daith wrote: »
    There's a difference between everyone being labelled a bigot because you disagree and the varying responses in this thread.

    Pretty sure I'm labelled one way due to concerns of legal wrangling to gain an advantage.


  • #268
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,927 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    So encouraging transgender people to lie about their history and help them to erase and conceal it... That's the big clever solution to the problem of discrimination?

    Tackle the discrimination in society. Eradicate trans phobia. Don't create a culture of lying and re-writing of history!

    Look to Asia the way transgender people are increasingly being accepted and are becoming embraced by many for who they are: Transgender men and women!

    We are being given hypocritical mixed messages in this country, which is NOT going to further the progress of this minority group!

    You need to lay off the rewriting history nonsense.

    We are allowing transgender people to get passports and other identification documents that show their correct gender if they wish to do so. Perhaps not all of them wish to stand on the frontline of the battle to be accepted. they just want to live their lives. what is wrong with that?

    Funny you should mention Asia as the transgender people there (or in thailand at least) do not have this option. their ID cards all say their gender at birth. It is not possible for them to get an ID card which lists them as their correct gender. The are not as accepted and embraced as you think.


  • #269
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Daith wrote: »
    And the Birth Cert is used in Ireland to identify sex and gender. Maybe it shouldn't?

    Show me where it says gender. Go and get a link to an irish birth cert that says gender, cause im looking at reams and reams of them here on google images and they all say sex.

    Y'know else they say, "occupation of father." Now should I get a new one issued (note, im saying a new one issued, not saying get the original changed) when my Da gets a new job?


  • #270
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    thats because they dont actually have any. or none that stand up to any scrutiny.
    I can't agree with that, because to me that says that no matter what argument somebody brings forward, you will dismiss it out of hand. Maybe there are no arguments with merit to be made, but making them is never without merit. Maybe you will never convince the person you are arguing against, but maybe you will convince somebody on the fence.

    Either way, if your opening argument is going to be that, no matter what they say you will not be moved, then you can blame nobody but yourself if they don't try. In which case nobodies mind will be changed, and nobody wins.

    If you are done with this argument, then so be it, but are you really helping in trying to convince others that they should be done with it too? I'm not saying I'd be able to answers any argument, though others might, but I am confident in my stance on this issue, so I've no worry in any argument that somebody might bring.


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  • #271
    Clearlier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Show me where it says gender. Go and get a link to an irish birth cert that says gender, cause im looking at reams and reams of them here on google images and they all say sex.

    Y'know else they say, "occupation of father." Now should I get a new one issued (note, im saying a new one issued, not saying get the original changed) when my Da gets a new job?

    What kind of discrimination do you suffer from the original entry of your Dad's profession? The new birth cert is for functional not historical purposes.


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