The Irish language is failing.

kefir32 · 01-06-2015 12:17PM

From my perspective, I had some pretty worse than useless irish teachers at school, both primary and secondary level.One in particular was a complete antagonist who was a fluent speaker as he spoke nothing but irish all of his life. He could not understand how we were so inept at conversing in the language and was pretty vitriolic if you were falling behind. Thats when my affinity for the language died and looking back I'm glad I put my energy into other subjects I enjoyed in school.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-06-2015 12:25PM

tipparetops wrote: »

You prove my point, anyone so anal about English grammar on the dinternet, could easily do pass Irish. Do not blame the language, blame yourself.

When the topic of said intenet conversation is langauge and your point is that peope who don't learn it are, in some way, unworthy of higher education, then you look like a crass hypocrite when you yourself can't write in a grammatically correct manner.

Now, just to clarfiy, I don't blame the Irish langauge, I blame the system for reasons I've eludicated: namely, it doesn't teach any passion or enjoyment; it doesn't teach Irish as a language of expression; and it's linked too much to passing exams and getting into college.

If you think my lack of Irish is still down to me, I'll gladly hear your points as to what specifically is my fault.

Grayson · 01-06-2015 12:26PM

Shrap wrote: »

Did you have to have Irish? I mean, were you exempt? Or start as a mature student? Not trying to be nosy, just interested!

Both. I initially went to Maynooth fresh from school. Although I attended primary and secondary here (I missed one year abroad) I was born in the UK. I moved here before I started school. However NUI rules state that you must have Irish unless you meet a certain set of conditions. Those include being born outside of the 32 counties. So I was exempt.

I went back as a mature student later. That's when I got the maths degree.

So I'm proof that lack of Irish doesn't mean anything academically

Shrap · 01-06-2015 12:28PM

tipparetops wrote: »

You prove my point, anyone so anal about English grammar on the dinternet, could easily do pass Irish. Do not blame the language, blame yourself.

If you can show me where I've blamed the language itself, I'd take that as fair comment. However, I have consistently and coherently blamed the compulsory aspect of learning the language for turning me off the subject, so you won't find an example. I don't, for example, base my B in honours German on how easy or difficult the language itself is to learn, I base it on having chosen to start the language from scratch in 1st year and not having been left behind as I was in studying Irish.

Shrap · 01-06-2015 12:30PM

Grayson wrote: »

So I'm proof that lack of Irish doesn't mean anything academically

Thanks for the reply. You are also proof that being born in Ireland (and therefore not exempt) can hold a student back if they don't pass Irish.

Ticking and Bashing · 01-06-2015 12:36PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No, they're not. It varies denpending on whether the person is learnign it as their first langauge or not.

Also, your point that the way langauges are taught is to pass oral, aural and wiritten exams is somewhat daft, not to mention endemic of the problem. Some poeple learn lagauges for reasons of travel, relocation or even just as a hobby - no exams required - and for some reason, that idea is alien to the peoeple who think that the way Irish is taugh is in some way positive.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The guy who needed to do biology a page or two back was clearly being held back - at least for a year.

And I hate to play the Grammar Nazi card, but you can't really be taken seriously about the links between education and intellgence and langauge when you write English like that.

ahem

Grayson · 01-06-2015 12:39PM

tipparetops wrote: »

You prove my point, anyone so anal about English grammar on the dinternet, could easily do pass Irish. Do not blame the language, blame yourself.

I only got though junior cert because I memorised grammar. Couldn't tell you what a word meant but I could conjugate it. That's not really speaking a language

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-06-2015 12:48PM

Ticking and Bashing wrote: »

ahem

You seem to be unaware of the difference between a typograical error and a gramatical error!

tipparetops · 01-06-2015 12:56PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You seem to be unaware of the difference between a typograical error and a gramatical error!

Do you, you said my grammar was not good enough.
Another poster had a go, will you.
Before you do, get a dictionary and check study's and are.

This will be interesting.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-06-2015 01:12PM

tipparetops wrote: »

Do you, you said my grammar was not good enough.
Another poster had a go, will you.
Before you do, get a dictionary and check study's and are.

This will be interesting.

Dictonaries won't help with typos - I'm still not sure what you mean by "check study's and are." - do you mean study's as a verb or studies as a pluralised noun? Also, are what?

Now, we've gone way too far off track. We were here:

Now, just to clarfiy, I don't blame the Irish langauge, I blame the system for reasons I've eludicated: namely, it doesn't teach any passion or enjoyment; it doesn't teach Irish as a language of expression; and it's linked too much to passing exams and getting into college.

If you think my lack of Irish is still down to me, I'll gladly hear your points as to what specifically is my fault.

Do you accept my point or wish to reply?

mickstupp · 01-06-2015 01:22PM

tipparetops wrote: »

Any student who study's any foundation subject, are not going to university.
If u cannot study even pass level, forget it.

I am not going to let posters say nonsense about foundation Irish holding back students when it is plainly not true.

I failed Irish at pass level. Overall, I didn't get enough points in my Leaving Cert to get into any university course in the country at that time. When I was 30, I went to university, without all those stupid arbitrary restrictions that are imposed until the age of 23. Now I'm doing a PhD. The university, department, and my supervisor all think I'm capable of this.

You would disagree with them wholeheartedly, it seems, and consider me unfit for higher level study simply because I couldn't handle Ordinary level Irish.

Foundation level Irish does hold students back, literally, in an actual real world way. That's because many courses in Irish universities have Ordinary level Irish as an entrance requirement for Irish citizens under the age of 23, despite the fact that almost every one of those courses has no Irish language component whatsoever.

Your opinion is plainly not reflecting reality.

ThinkProgress · 01-06-2015 01:40PM

I'm by no means an expert on linguistics or the finer points of teaching in general. So this is merely my layman's perspective.

However, something has always struck me as being very odd about the way we teach languages in this country. Particularly Irish, as an earlier poster alluded to the arrogance we have towards our own language - which I certainly agree has a huge influence on how we teach it.

Anyone who has done a bit of travelling in their life will know that one of the first things most of us will do when going to a new unfamiliar country - we buy a phrase book, right? (I do anyway) lol

It's impossible for us to understand the intricate and complicated things about that language, and tbh we don't even have the time or inclination learn about them. We simply start learning off full phrases and sentences! lol

And guess what? Many people can start talking and communicating relatively quickly using this method. Ok, granted they're probably getting a lot of stuff wrong and it might sound a bit weird to the natives - BUT THEY ARE COMMUNICATING - and they are being understood on a very basic level.

Yet we can spend years sitting in a classroom learning verbs and pro nouns, or memorizing sheets of vocabulary. We can even pass exams. But can most of us hold a basic conversation with the person next to us?

It's ridiculous! It seems so obvious to me. I could recognize this even back when I was in school. And many of you guys probably recognize this too. But do our educators? lol

Speaking the language should be the major priority when you start teaching a language. But it's NOT like that in our schools. We waste too much time teaching the wrong stuff from an early age.

I sometimes wonder if I might have learnt more if they just gave us all a phrase book!

We might have had the the verbs and pro nouns mixed up, but we'd still be able to communicate in the language.

And that's really important. Because if you can teach kids to speak the language and have conversations from an early age - they will gain HUGE confidence from that.

But instead we seem to do it all backwards in this country. Resulting in kids that have zero confidence in their ability!

If you want to teach a kid to play football, you don't spend hours explaining the off-side rule. Or tell them what material the ball is made from - YOU THROW THEM A FOOTBALL - and let them PLAY!

But like I said, I'm not a teacher. So maybe I'm just talking out my ar*e! haha

Deranged96 · 01-06-2015 01:43PM

riclad wrote: »

I think 90 per cent of students are only interested in irish cos it gives them
a few points for university acess,
we need a brave politician to stand up and say,
make it voluntary after year 1 .
Face reality, irish is a minority interest, like irish dancing or poetry,
its a cultural treasure ,
Once people leave school they never use irish ,
unless they are a teacher or work in rte/tg4 .
but spending billions on teaching irish is a disaster and a waste of time .
And a shame when we could spend the money on other worthy causes .

Billions on teaching it?
Hardly, unless I'm missing something?

Chloris · 01-06-2015 01:55PM

ThinkProgress wrote:

If you want to teach a kid to play football, you don't spend hours explaining the off-side rule. Or tell them what material the ball is made from - YOU THROW THEM A FOOTBALL - and let them PLAY!

Have you ever heard children with very little to no Irish when they're encouraged to speak freely? They're unintelligible. They can't say what they want to with even a minute amount of proficiency. They have to engage with the basics first. That's why I'm suggesting a more fun syllabus with interactive course material and teachers who actually know what the f*ck they're doing.

If we really want to save the Irish language, more of the same isn't going to work. It's only going to do irreversible damage in the long run.

ThinkProgress · 01-06-2015 02:13PM

Chloris wrote: »

Have you ever heard children with very little to no Irish when they're encouraged to speak freely? They're unintelligible. They can't say what they want to with even a minute amount of proficiency. They have to engage with the basics first. That's why I'm suggesting a more fun syllabus with interactive course material and teachers who actually know what the f*ck they're doing.

If we really want to save the Irish language, more of the same isn't going to work. It's only going to do irreversible damage in the long run.

I learnt phrases out of a phrase book when I went on family holidays. I was 5 or 6 years old when I first did that. I'm sure I sounded a bit strange, but I did start to pick it up after a while.

But most importantly, I FELT like I was talking to the locals. And they responded by trying to talk back! End result - CONFIDENCE!

Compare that with learning sheets of vocab or verbs - most kids can't connect those vocab words together in a coherent sentence. They don't gain much confidence from that experience!

I don't know if I'm right, it's just my life experiences and what my instincts tell me FEELS right.

silverfeather · 01-06-2015 02:15PM

Never went to the Gaeltacht. Everything I learnt seemed to fly away after the leaving. I think I stuck it in there with prickstick.

Madam · 01-06-2015 03:02PM

psinno wrote: »

Only in Ireland would there be people who think the language spoken by a couple of percent of the population is the national language.

Not only in Ireland - think of the Basques who fought to relearn and keep their language or folk from Brittany - same with the Scots or really any country who's native language was forbidden them! Don't you think it would be a shame to lose such a link to your identity?

Carlos Orange · 01-06-2015 03:15PM

Madam wrote: »

Not only in Ireland - think of the Basques who fought to relearn and keep their language or folk from Brittany - same with the Scots or really any country who's native language was forbidden them! Don't you think it would be a shame to lose such a link to your identity?

I'd be just fine if people quit trying to shame me into having the same identity they do.

Basque is spoken by about the same percentage of people in Spain as Irish is in Ireland. Nobody considers Basque the national language of Spain.

Adamocovic · 01-06-2015 03:24PM

I think teaching is a big factor in any language. I learned/improved more from 2-3 months in the Gaeltacht than I ever did in school.

Again it comes down to peoples interest and desire to learn it. Giving a choice might work but I think a lot comes down to how it is taught and what is being taught. It would be nice to make it a bit more modern and change the structure a little (could be wrong maybe it has been).

I think a big thing would be watching Irish speaking tv with English subtitles. It sounds daft but I know people from other countries who have really good English and have credited all the English speaking shows as the main reason.

Adamocovic · 01-06-2015 03:40PM

psinno wrote: »

I'd be just fine if people quit trying to shame me into having the same identity they do.

Basque is spoken by about the same percentage of people in Spain as Irish is in Ireland. Nobody considers Basque the national language of Spain.

was looking at languages recently (similar to Irish, minority national languages) and I remember in the Basque area something like 30% could speak the language (I dont know from just understanding to fluent or what extent) It is considered their Regional Language. Now thats roughly 500-900 thousand people when the total population of Spain is 40+ million. So overall maybe 1-3% of Spain speak it. It is still recognised as a territorial language.

Ireland I remember 35-40% have some Irish (hard to know how much) and I cant remember fluent speakers but obviously it was very low. (From the census)

Our primary language is recognised as English, theres no debate in that. But also our National Language is Irish. National Language doesnt refer to the most commonly used language rather the language that originated from the area, or the first known language of the place.

An Ciarraioch · 01-06-2015 03:46PM

psinno wrote: »

I'd be just fine if people quit trying to shame me into having the same identity they do.

Basque is spoken by about the same percentage of people in Spain as Irish is in Ireland. Nobody considers Basque the national language of Spain.

Fair to say if you tell the average Basque that they're Spanish you'll soon get put straight, even if Madrid dictates otherwise!

Carlos Orange · 01-06-2015 04:20PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Fair to say if you tell the average Basque that they're Spanish you'll soon get put straight, even if Madrid dictates otherwise!

Feel free to move to the gaeltacht and start an independence movement.

Iwasfrozen · 01-06-2015 04:26PM

psinno wrote: »

Feel free to move to the gaeltacht and start an independence movement.

Yes please, then we won't have to deal with their shít.

Deranged96 · 01-06-2015 04:46PM

Problems people have with Irish:

1) "It was taught horrendously to me at school, now I resent it"
2) "Irish speakers have a "more Irish then thou attitude", I resent the language because of them"
3) "Imagine if the resources for Irish were put into Computer coding or Chinese, now that'll get us places"
4) "Why is it considered our national language? Just because it was the language of our ancestors doesn't mean it deserves a place in today's Ireland"
5) "backward...culchie.... catholic"
6) "There's no point trying to save it or promote or protect it, I hate that money is allocated to it in any way shape or form"
7) "There's nothing we can do for it anyway, sad and all as that may be"

Wibbs · 01-06-2015 05:27PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Problems people have with Irish:

1) "It was taught horrendously to me at school, now I resent it"
2) "Irish speakers have a "more Irish then thou attitude", I resent the language because of them"
3) "Imagine if the resources for Irish were put into Computer coding or Chinese, now that'll get us places"
4) "Why is it considered our national language? Just because it was the language of our ancestors doesn't mean it deserves a place in today's Ireland"
5) "backward...culchie.... catholic"
6) "There's no point trying to save it or promote or protect it, I hate that money is allocated to it in any way shape or form"
7) "There's nothing we can do for it anyway, sad and all as that may be"

you forgot 8) the vast majority when it comes right down to it, couldn't be arsed about the language either way. That's been the attitude going back many a year, hence the languages rapid contraction.

Though I think it's reached a natural baseline. I don't think it'll drop any further and may grow some in the future.

Madam wrote: »

Not only in Ireland - think of the Basques who fought to relearn and keep their language

Yep the Basques kept it, because they wanted to. No amount of force(and there was lots under Franco, even giving your child a Basque name was verboten). The language should have rebounded in a big way after our independence, instead it continued to dwindle. It seems every time your average Irish person is free to chose they drop the language, including those multitudes that went to other countries. We're pretty unusual in that.

same with the Scots

Ironically the Scots spoke Pictish, a language that died out long ago and largely did so on the back of Irish traders and the church invading the place. Irish became the language of religion and commerce and learning, hence the Scots have Scots Gaelic. Even the name of the country has an Irish origin as Scoti was the Latin word for the Irish as a group.

Don't you think it would be a shame to lose such a link to your identity?

Again that's the problem, for the majority of people on the island it hasn't been a part of their identity for generations. Myself being of Dublin stock going back four generations on both sides means that the last native Irish speaker in my blood was likely early 19th century(and on one side likely before that). The Leinster Irish dialect has been extinct for at least a century. Irish is quite literally a "foreign language" to me and I'd not be alone in that.

That was another issue with its teaching, at least in my day. There was the sniff of "this is your native language so you should be able to speak it quite easily so we'll teach it along those lines".

Shep_Dog · 01-06-2015 05:35PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Problems people have with Irish:

1) "It was taught horrendously to me at school, now I resent it"
2) "Irish speakers have a "more Irish then thou attitude", I resent the language because of them"
3) "Imagine if the resources for Irish were put into Computer coding or Chinese, now that'll get us places"
4) "Why is it considered our national language? Just because it was the language of our ancestors doesn't mean it deserves a place in today's Ireland"
5) "backward...culchie.... catholic"
6) "There's no point trying to save it or promote or protect it, I hate that money is allocated to it in any way shape or form"
7) "There's nothing we can do for it anyway, sad and all as that may be"

+"I choose not to speak Irish. It's my choice. Please respect my freedom of choice and stop trying to make me speak Irish."

Deranged96 · 01-06-2015 05:38PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

+"I choose not to speak Irish. It's my choice. Please respect my freedom of choice and stop trying to make me speak Irish."

don't worry shep, no one's out to torture a cúpla focal out of you

Chloris · 01-06-2015 05:42PM

Hating that any money is put into it? Ridiculous. You're entitled to your opinion but that's a really crappy attitude about a language which was stolen from us.

Grayson · 01-06-2015 05:59PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Problems people have with Irish:

1) "It was taught horrendously to me at school, now I resent it"
2) "Irish speakers have a "more Irish then thou attitude", I resent the language because of them"
3) "Imagine if the resources for Irish were put into Computer coding or Chinese, now that'll get us places"
4) "Why is it considered our national language? Just because it was the language of our ancestors doesn't mean it deserves a place in today's Ireland"
5) "backward...culchie.... catholic"
6) "There's no point trying to save it or promote or protect it, I hate that money is allocated to it in any way shape or form"
7) "There's nothing we can do for it anyway, sad and all as that may be"

You seem to think that people have a grudge against it. It's not like that.

Imagine if 90% of leaving cert maths students had very little ability beyond multiplication. We'd think the maths course was an absolute waste of time. If after 14 years in education you could barely add you'd be at the level of a leaving cert pass student.

The fact is that teaching Irish has been an absolute failure on every possible level.

Plus no-one wants to learn it. No-one needs to either. It's not necessary for work or leisure. If adults have time some might study it, some might study computers, some might learn drawing... The thing is that most don't learn Irish. If an adult decides to learn a language they're more likely to learn a foreign one.

So we can't teach it to children. That's been an absolute failure. Adults don't want to learn it.

Skatedude · 01-06-2015 06:05PM

Irish needs to be taught in schools. i'm 43 and went to a CBS and we had irish every day for many years, but we were never taught the language. It was always a case of "memorize this for tomorrow" Nothing to do with actually been able to speak or understand it.

Pretty much the same in most schools?

The Irish language is failing.

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