The Irish language is failing.

Shep_Dog · 01-06-2015 06:18AM

dlouth15 wrote: »

Has it every really been the intention to have Irish widely spoken?

Yes: Conradh na Gaeilge exists to restore Irish as the common language of Ireland. All of its activities are directed towards this objective. They want to replace English with Irish.

But maybe your question is if this has ever been government policy? I'd say that the government has been just as reluctant to pursue this mad project as the people it represents but it's shackled by commitments to Irish written into the constitution by long-dead Irish-language zealots and is fearful of losing votes to ultra-nationalists.

Shrap · 01-06-2015 08:35AM

mickstupp wrote: »

Why not? Doesn't everyone have to study science for their Junior Certs? That's not a core subject in primary. Can't think of a single rational reason why Irish can't be compulsory in primary and optional in secondary.

ThinkProgress wrote: »

There is no justification for making it a core subject in primary any more than in secondary. And if you agree with the reasons for making it optional in secondary, then the reasons are no different for primary!

Major problem alert!! Just realised that in order for Irish to be taught at primary level at all, then all teachers need to have it. Were it compulsory at primary level but not compulsory at secondary level, then students who didn't take up Irish again would effectively be ruling themselves out of a teaching career option, possibly by age 12 (which is no good age to take a decision on your future career path).

We can't be expecting every primary school in the country to have teachers capable of teaching Irish if it wasn't compulsory in both. Plus, the primary school curriculum has zero optional subjects, with the exception of religion.

I foresee our call for non-compulsory Irish in secondary failing miserably I'm afraid! Perhaps it should be optional for the LC cycle only, as that is essentially where students pick subjects to correspond to a notional career path.....

Un Croissant · 01-06-2015 08:42AM

Shrap wrote: »

Major problem alert!! Just realised that in order for Irish to be taught at primary level at all, then all teachers need to have it. Were it compulsory at primary level but not compulsory at secondary level, then students who didn't take up Irish again would effectively be ruling themselves out of a teaching career option, possibly by age 12 (which is no good age to take a decision on your future career path).

We can't be expecting every primary school in the country to have teachers capable of teaching Irish if it wasn't compulsory in both. Plus, the primary school curriculum has zero optional subjects, with the exception of religion.

I foresee our call for non-compulsory Irish in secondary failing miserably I'm afraid! Perhaps it should be optional for the LC cycle only, as that is essentially where students pick subjects to correspond to a notional career path.....

One solution could be an ab initio Irish stream at third level separated from advanced. It happens with every other language apart from French and they join together in final year after two years intensive practical study and usually a lengthy placement.

Shrap · 01-06-2015 08:44AM

Un Croissant wrote: »

One solution could be an ab initio Irish stream at third level separated from advanced. It happens with every other language apart from French and they join together in final year after two years intensive practical study and usually a lengthy placement.

Yes, that would make perfect sense. Can't quite see the INTO getting behind that though....can you?

Un Croissant · 01-06-2015 08:46AM

Hearing from third level students at students union meetings (I know, I know) they have very poor Irish but also very poor teaching at third level.

One solution was to organise some basic grammar classes, which filled to capacity and in an honest and friendly environment they learned far more than they had to date.

It seems people are afraid to admit how much they know (or don't) but when given an environment without stigma, the language is easily grasped.

stefanovich · 01-06-2015 08:46AM

I think everyone on this island should learn Irish. It is part of your culture and heritage. Disheartening that so many here seem to give it little value.

Un Croissant · 01-06-2015 08:48AM

stefanovich wrote: »

I think everyone on this island should learn Irish. It is part of your culture and heritage. Disheartening that so many here seem to give it little value.

It HAS little practical value. It's been given disproportionate symbolic value. The discussion is how to marry the two.

Symbolism has failed entirely. Practicality might help but how to make it practical.

Shrap · 01-06-2015 08:50AM

stefanovich wrote: »

I think everyone on this island should learn Irish. It is part of your culture and heritage. Disheartening that so many here seem to give it little value.

Have you read this thread to find out why? Your dictat here is not part of the solution, it's part of the problem.

Un Croissant · 01-06-2015 08:54AM

In third level, students of foreign languages are expected to spend six months (though a year is recommended) in the country it's spoken. Full immersion is necessary to learn.

For Irish, you're expected to know the language, by magic (or following over a decade of study, if they believe the curriculum is fictional) and only go to a gaeltacht for two weeks with your broken Irish.

It doesn't help that the people that benefit monetarily from compulsory, yet useless, gaeltacht placements are known to the departments

Grayson · 01-06-2015 08:59AM

Un Croissant wrote: »

One solution could be an ab initio Irish stream at third level separated from advanced. It happens with every other language apart from French and they join together in final year after two years intensive practical study and usually a lengthy placement.

Or even have an add on course. I think it already exists so teachers from up north are able to teach here.

Shep_Dog · 01-06-2015 09:42AM

stefanovich wrote: »

I think everyone on this island should learn Irish. It is part of your culture and heritage. Disheartening that so many here seem to give it little value.

Having red hair is also part of our culture and heritage, but we don't make everyone dye their hair red.

LordSutch · 01-06-2015 10:02AM

I think the Irish language has been failing since before th attempted "revival" at the birth of this state in the 1920s.

My mum tells me that granny used to recall when science and Shakespeare were replaced with" doing Irish" back in the early years of the state! She recalled new teachers being drafted in from the west (people who could speak Irish), she also remembered the eagerness with which they set upon forcing the language (trying to force) the language into her and her school friends in a typical Dublin school. Granny never did learn Irish, neither did her children, neither did my parents, neither did I, and neither will my children if the truth be known. Incenedtially, its not as if our family are short on language skills, with one cousin being a former interpreter in Brussel (7 languages not including Irish), and my Mum being fluent in French and German, but also not in Irish!

When I look at my kids school, which is bedecked with Irish words up and down the corridor, and with Irish words over the door to every room, I wonder why? Why put all that the effort into Irish in schools with so little reward (for the revival of the language)?

Shrap · 01-06-2015 10:10AM

LordSutch wrote: »

She recalled new teachers being drafted in from the west (people who could speak Irish), she also remembered the eagerness with which they set upon forcing the language (trying to force) the language into her and her school friends in a typical Dublin school.

I remember my Dad telling me about that for his parent's generation. He himself was sent to CBS Synge St., where everything was taught through Irish, even English. It was truly bet into them in that place. Of course, my Dad can still string a sentence together but he certainly has no love or attachment to it and he wasn't able to give me any help with the Irish homework as he worked long hours. My English Ma was no use with it either!

Imagine. All that force feeding of the language in my family's history and it's utterly useless in our lives - less than useless in fact, since it's hindered college choices in two generations of my family now....

mickstupp · 01-06-2015 10:31AM

At the very least it should be dropped from college entry requirements for any subject that isn't Irish. I mentioned it last time there was one of these threads, my friend's son is now repeating his LC doing Ordinary Irish. He actually had more than enough points the first time round to do Biology in Maynooth, but was told he couldn't because at the time he only had Foundation level Irish. Irish is of zero use to a science degree but he couldn't get in because of it.

And it makes even less sense when you realise that once a person hits 23 the entry requirement to have any Irish whatsoever disappears completely. Why does a Maths degree require a D3 in Ordinary Irish?

And before anyone hops in with the likes of this: 'well if you can't handle Ordinary Irish you can hardly expect to deal with university', you don't know what you're talking about. Not even counting the number of foreign students in the university system, if people can go back to college as mature students, over the age of 23, not a word of Irish, and get degrees, Masters degrees, PhDs, then their respective abilities with the Irish language has no relevance at all.

Shrap · 01-06-2015 10:43AM

mickstupp wrote: »

And before anyone hops in with the likes of this: 'well if you can't handle Ordinary Irish you can hardly expect to deal with university', you don't know what you're talking about.

Ha, yes. I got that yesterday already:

tipparetops wrote: »

Being honest, if you cannot make some attempt at LC Irish, you really have to question are you ready for University.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying about Irish and the college entry requirements. It's absolutely outrageous, and the case you point to of the poor lad having to resit 6th year to pass OL Irish is sickening. I know many students who are doing foundation level Irish being held back from pursuing science subjects in most Uni's.

Grayson · 01-06-2015 10:46AM

mickstupp wrote: »

At the very least it should be dropped from college entry requirements for any subject that isn't Irish. I mentioned it last time there was one of these threads, my friend's son is now repeating his LC doing Ordinary Irish. He actually had more than enough points the first time round to do Biology in Maynooth, but was told he couldn't because at the time he only had Foundation level Irish. Irish is of zero use to a science degree but he couldn't get in because of it.

And it makes even less sense when you realise that once a person hits 23 the entry requirement to have any Irish whatsoever disappears completely. Why does a Maths degree require a D3 in Ordinary Irish?

And before anyone hops in with the likes of this: 'well if you can't handle Ordinary Irish you can hardly expect to deal with university', you don't know what you're talking about. Not even counting the number of foreign students in the university system, if people can go back to college as mature students, over the age of 23, not a word of Irish, and get degrees, Masters degrees, PhDs, then their respective abilities with the Irish language has no relevance at all.

I have a degree in maths from Maynooth and I don't have Irish.

Shrap · 01-06-2015 10:48AM

Grayson wrote: »

I have a degree in maths from Maynooth and I don't have Irish.

Did you have to have Irish? I mean, were you exempt? Or start as a mature student? Not trying to be nosy, just interested!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-06-2015 10:50AM

mickstupp wrote: »

At the very least it should be dropped from college entry requirements for any subject that isn't Irish. I mentioned it last time there was one of these threads, my friend's son is now repeating his LC doing Ordinary Irish. He actually had more than enough points the first time round to do Biology in Maynooth, but was told he couldn't because at the time he only had Foundation level Irish. Irish is of zero use to a science degree but he couldn't get in because of it.

And it makes even less sense when you realise that once a person hits 23 the entry requirement to have any Irish whatsoever disappears completely. Why does a Maths degree require a D3 in Ordinary Irish?

And before anyone hops in with the likes of this: 'well if you can't handle Ordinary Irish you can hardly expect to deal with university', you don't know what you're talking about. Not even counting the number of foreign students in the university system, if people can go back to college as mature students, over the age of 23, not a word of Irish, and get degrees, Masters degrees, PhDs, then their respective abilities with the Irish language has no relevance at all.

I always wonder how many skilled, inventive and gifted child-engging teachers are now wasted because they didn't speak Irish? In my more conspiratorial moments, I think that's exactly why the system is set up that way.

And the idea that, "well - if you can't learn Irish you're not intellgient enough to be a teacher" is, ironically, one of the stupidist things I've ever heard.

Shrap · 01-06-2015 10:56AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I always wonder how many skilled, inventive and gifted child-engging teachers are now wasted because they didn't speak Irish? In my more conspiratorial moments, I think that's exactly why the system is set up that way.

In my more conspiratorial moments, I wonder how many fabulous teachers we never had because they aren't religious and wouldn't/couldn't pretend to be for the sake of becoming teachers? But that's a whole other thread.......

tipparetops · 01-06-2015 11:28AM

Shrap wrote: »

Ha, yes. I got that yesterday already:

I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying about Irish and the college entry requirements. It's absolutely outrageous, and the case you point to of the poor lad having to resit 6th year to pass OL Irish is sickening. I know many students who are doing foundation level Irish being held back from pursuing science subjects in most Uni's.

Foundation level students have no place in university, they should apply to ITs.

Shrap · 01-06-2015 11:40AM

tipparetops wrote: »

Foundation level students have no place in university, they should apply to ITs.

Gosh, that's charming.:pac: And patently insulting. Oh, and untrue.

A student doing foundation level maths for example, may be gifted in languages or art, or anything but maths.
A student doing foundation level Irish may be a gifted straight A student in science or any subject at all except Irish.

You clearly need to broaden your mind.

tipparetops · 01-06-2015 11:47AM

Shrap wrote: »

Gosh, that's charming.:pac: And patently insulting. Oh, and untrue.

A student doing foundation level maths for example, may be gifted in languages or art, or anything but maths.
A student doing foundation level Irish may be a gifted straight A student in science or any subject at all except Irish.

You clearly need to broaden your mind.

Any student who study's any foundation subject, are not going to university.
If u cannot study even pass level, forget it.

I am not going to let posters say nonsense about foundation Irish holding back students when it is plainly not true.

Chloris · 01-06-2015 11:51AM

I reckon a generation of children learning a specifically tailored curriculum from Irish-only tutors in Primary School is what the country needs to get the language back on track. As a primary school teacher, I can tell you that the curriculum is based on holistic learning, a method which simply doesn't work when it comes to teaching what is essentially a dead language.

Shrap · 01-06-2015 11:54AM

tipparetops wrote: »

Any student who study's any foundation subject, are not going to university.
If u cannot study even pass level, forget it.

I am not going to let posters say nonsense about foundation Irish holding back students when it is plainly not true.

:rolleyes:

Keep digging. Your posts are becoming comical at this stage.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-06-2015 11:54AM

tipparetops wrote: »

Any student who study's any foundation subject, are not going to university.
If u cannot study even pass level, forget it.

I am not going to let posters say nonsense about foundation Irish holding back students when it is plainly not true.

The guy who needed to do biology a page or two back was clearly being held back - at least for a year.

And I hate to play the Grammar Nazi card, but you can't really be taken seriously about the links between education and intellgence and langauge when you write English like that.

tipparetops · 01-06-2015 12:00PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The guy who needed to do biology a page or two back was clearly being held back - at least for a year.

And I hate to play the Grammar Nazi card, but you can't really be taken seriously about the links between education and intellgence and langauge when you write English like that.

Can u do me a favour, correct my post for grammar errors.
It all helps.

Shrap · 01-06-2015 12:05PM

tipparetops wrote: »

Can u do me a favour, correct my post for grammar errors.
It all helps.

Oooh, can I help?!

tipparetops wrote: »

Any student who study's studies any foundation subject are is not going to university.
If u you cannot study even at pass level, then forget it.

....and to think I failed Irish!

LordSutch · 01-06-2015 12:06PM

Chloris wrote: »

I reckon a generation of children learning a specifically tailored curriculum from Irish-only tutors in Primary School is what the country needs to get the language back on track. As a primary school teacher, I can tell you that the curriculum is based on holistic learning, a method which simply doesn't work when it comes to teaching what is essentially a dead language.

You say its a dead language, yet the schools carry on making the children 'do Irish' as if its the most natural thing in the world, where as in reality Irish is at best, on life support even though its our 1st language :cool:

tipparetops · 01-06-2015 12:14PM

Shrap wrote: »

Oooh, can I help?!

....and to think I failed Irish![/quote

You prove my point, anyone so anal about English grammar on the dinternet, could easily do pass Irish. Do not blame the language, blame yourself.

riclad · 01-06-2015 12:14PM

I think 90 per cent of students are only interested in irish cos it gives them
a few points for university acess,
we need a brave politician to stand up and say,
make it voluntary after year 1 .
Face reality, irish is a minority interest, like irish dancing or poetry,
its a cultural treasure ,
Once people leave school they never use irish ,
unless they are a teacher or work in rte/tg4 .
but spending billions on teaching irish is a disaster and a waste of time .
And a shame when we could spend the money on other worthy causes .

The Irish language is failing.

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