Public sector pay increase

JillyQ · 29-05-2015 01:01AM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

The State is a shareholder as it is and it's the only one, which is the best way IMO. Think M50 toll bridge and where all that money goes .

....i.e. cost of motor tax skyrockets .

Your family are the majority of the Public Service ?

21k is a reasonable starting wage . Your problem should be with those paying 15k wages. Aside from that not every CO job is the same , neither is every CO a secretary. It's a bit like "I work in IT" Some of those sell laptops in a shop , others write the programmes for them.

I find it fascinating that everyone knows what everyone elses job is worth, they're never paid enough themselves, all Public Sector workers are overpaid while all Private sector all break their balls all day every day.

My own big money saving idea ? Scrap Free Legal Aid as it stands and create a Public defenders office with salaried staff . Make it mandatory for all those getting a law degree from an Irish university to spend 2 years working there. The cream will rise to the top and be employed by the big firms which would also give them an incentive to work harder to earn the big bucks while the State would save millions on the current system IMO.

The tolled motorways have been extremely successful, public private partnership, government is still getting money form them. You say the cost of it would skyrocket in cost, well look at another transport equevilant Aer Lingus privatisation and prices have gone way way down. Aslo as another poster has pointed out since the Driver Licencing has been sub contracted out the prices have gone down.

darkpagandeath · 29-05-2015 01:05AM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

The State is a shareholder as it is and it's the only one, which is the best way IMO. Think M50 toll bridge and where all that money goes .

....i.e. cost of motor tax skyrockets .

Your family are the majority of the Public Service ?

21k is a reasonable starting wage . Your problem should be with those paying 15k wages. Aside from that not every CO job is the same , neither is every CO a secretary. It's a bit like "I work in IT" Some of those sell laptops in a shop , others write the programmes for them.

I find it fascinating that everyone knows what everyone elses job is worth, they're never paid enough themselves, all Public Sector workers are overpaid while all Private sector all break their balls all day every day.

My own big money saving idea ? Scrap Free Legal Aid as it stands and create a Public defenders office with salaried staff . Make it mandatory for all those getting a law degree from an Irish university to spend 2 years working there. The cream will rise to the top and be employed by the big firms which would also give them an incentive to work harder to earn the big bucks while the State would save millions on the current system IMO.

I work in IT it's completely disingenuous to use that as a example of CO vs Secretary.

twowheelsonly · 29-05-2015 01:38AM

JillyQ wrote: »

The tolled motorways have been extremely successful, public private partnership, government is still getting money form them. You say the cost of it would skyrocket in cost, well look at another transport equevilant Aer Lingus privatisation and prices have gone way way down. Aslo as another poster has pointed out since the Driver Licencing has been sub contracted out the prices have gone down.

Ehh...no... What the other poster said was sarcasm.. Prices have gone up..
The toll example I gave was the M50 bridge. The Government built the roads, a private company built the bridge and tolled to cross it. If the Govt. had done so, having already spent a fortune on the road, they would be raking in that money themselves instead of it going into private hands .
The difference with Aer Lingus is the competition that's out there . If a company gets an exclusive contract in this country it's like a licence to print money !

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I work in IT it's completely disingenuous to use that as a example of CO vs Secretary.

Why? Isn't all IT work the same regardless of the field you're in just like all COs' are the same as secretaries ?
Do you all not just sit around all day typing and playing computer games ??

darkpagandeath · 29-05-2015 01:45AM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Ehh...no... What the other poster said was sarcasm.. Prices have gone up..
The toll example I gave was the M50 bridge. The Government built the roads, a private company built the bridge and tolled to cross it. If the Govt. had done so, having already spent a fortune on the road, they would be raking in that money themselves instead of it going into private hands .
The difference with Aer Lingus is the competition that's out there . If a company gets an exclusive contract in this country it's like a licence to print money !

Why? Isn't all IT work the same regardless of the field you're in just like all COs' are the same as secretaries ?
Do you all not just sit around all day typing and playing computer games ??

Nope I was hired into a particular branch of IT, Unlike the universal role of Clerical officer which is a general dog's body role helping out someone else. You known to free up their time from mundane activities to do something. I'm a Server Engineer if you are interested.

JillyQ · 29-05-2015 01:48AM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Ehh...no... What the other poster said was sarcasm.. Prices have gone up..
The toll example I gave was the M50 bridge. The Government built the roads, a private company built the bridge and tolled to cross it. If the Govt. had done so, having already spent a fortune on the road, they would be raking in that money themselves instead of it going into private hands .
The difference with Aer Lingus is the competition that's out there . If a company gets an exclusive contract in this country it's like a licence to print money !

Why? Isn't all IT work the same regardless of the field you're in just like all COs' are the same as secretaries ?
Do you all not just sit around all day typing and playing computer games ??

Maybe it was. But then take another private sector thing in with private buses againist bus eireann again they are more successful and more profitable.

Jawgap · 29-05-2015 09:02AM

JillyQ wrote: »

The tolled motorways have been extremely successful, public private partnership, government is still getting money form them. You say the cost of it would skyrocket in cost, well look at another transport equevilant Aer Lingus privatisation and prices have gone way way down. Aslo as another poster has pointed out since the Driver Licencing has been sub contracted out the prices have gone down.

Actually they haven't. The amount of maintenance work being deferred etc is just storing up huge problems for the future.

Aer Lingus prices have nothing to do with privatisation and everything to do with competition and market forces, specifically from Ryanair - incidentally, if you read the history of Ryanair you'll see how it's gestation was facilitated by the State. Even O'Leary himself has admitted that he often went home in the early days expecting to get a call that Aer Rianta had parked tugs behind their aircraft because of the amounts of landing fees they owed.

As for the NDLS - the price may well be down, but that doesn't follow that the cost of providing the service has gone down, nor does it follow that service standards have universally increased - response times have improved, but what about accessibility?

For example, there is no NDLS centre in Dublin City Centre! In Dublin you go to Santry, Clare Hall, Leopardstown or Citywest - but that's the private sector for you - go where the costs are lowest rather than where the services are needed

PeteFalk78 · 29-05-2015 09:24AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What do extra qualification's bring to this basic role ?

I'm obviously talking about qualifications in their specific area.......I don't know why you think I wasn't.

There are countless HETAC and FETAC Level 5 to Level 7 secretarial type courses around the country. And because the public sector (as a ratio) are higher qualified than the private sector, I hazard a guess that qualification is the reason/justification for the additional pay.

JillyQ · 29-05-2015 09:38AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually they haven't. The amount of maintenance work being deferred etc is just storing up huge problems for the future.

Aer Lingus prices have nothing to do with privatisation and everything to do with competition and market forces, specifically from Ryanair - incidentally, if you read the history of Ryanair you'll see how it's gestation was facilitated by the State. Even O'Leary himself has admitted that he often went home in the early days expecting to get a call that Aer Rianta had parked tugs behind their aircraft because of the amounts of landing fees they owed.

As for the NDLS - the price may well be down, but that doesn't follow that the cost of providing the service has gone down, nor does it follow that service standards have universally increased - response times have improved, but what about accessibility?

For example, there is no NDLS centre in Dublin City Centre! In Dublin you go to Santry, Clare Hall, Leopardstown or Citywest - but that's the private sector for you - go where the costs are lowest rather than where the services are needed

do most people not live in the surbarbs?. As for the Ryanair i am well aware of it was like at the start it, most business do struggle for about the first 5 years.

Calina · 29-05-2015 09:39AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Did not say leeches said over paid. Again any justification for the 21k starting vs as low as 15 in the private sector ?

Well, it depends on how you look at it. My starting salary 20 years ago was 15KE.

So frankly, the fact that 15 years on, a starting salary for a clerical worker or secretary is 15KE in the private sector is not a good reflection on the country. I'd argue 21KE isn't exactly generous.

But your mileage may vary. I have no objection to low salaries, but against that, rents probably need to come down. I could live on my own on a junior secretarial salary in Brussels 15 years ago. Can't do that in Dublin and you'd want at least double that to be able to even consider it.

What we have here are low salaries and high accommodation costs. Perhaps the whole low salary thing would not be such an issue in Ireland if the cost of accommodation which is most people's biggest outlay was correspondingly low.

twowheelsonly · 29-05-2015 09:47AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nope I was hired into a particular branch of IT, Unlike the universal role of Clerical officer which is a general dog's body role helping out someone else. You known to free up their time from mundane activities to do something. I'm a Server Engineer if you are interested.

You're missing the point - Not every CO job is the same, just as not every IT job is the same but they all come under the one umbrella. Likewise everyone in the Army is a soldier but they don't all do the same job.

JillyQ wrote: »

Maybe it was. But then take another private sector thing in with private buses againist bus eireann again they are more successful and more profitable.

For every profitable route there's a (major) loss maker. If the private operations had to run those as well would they be so successful or would they have to increase prices to be viable ? The 2 o'clock bus from Castlecomer to Killenaule on a rainy Weds evening isn't quite the same as the No. 103 bus from Ashbourne to Dublin city centre .

Jawgap · 29-05-2015 09:58AM

JillyQ wrote: »

do most people not live in the surbarbs?. As for the Ryanair i am well aware of it was like at the start it, most business do struggle for about the first 5 years.

they do, but most work in the city centre, plus a goodly portion from outside the GDA also work in and around the city centre.

Put it another way, if the city centre is such a 'bad' place to put an NDLS office, why is it stuffed full of banks?

Could it be that as a private sector operation it is pursuing a profit motive (nothing wrong with that at all), hence it is motivated to locate in areas where rents are cheap but there is still a reasonable demand? In that way it can minimise costs, service a decent size market, thereby maximising profit through cost minimisation? Unlike a public service operation which would be located where it's needed, not where profits can be maximised.

Or another example, the crowd I work for is a UK firm - the Irish operation is currently working flat out, while our UK operation is discussing redundancies. We've taken truckloads of work from them - because of the Euro. It's cheaper to put the work through us (even with us having to fly over and back to the UK on a weekly basis now) with our relative cost base than actually do the work at a geographically closer location to the client.

Jawgap · 29-05-2015 10:02AM

For all the PS critics......you're moment has arrived.......

Want an easy job, free money and a gold plated pension?

Apply here.......

Assistant Principal in the Civil Service incorporating First Secretary in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade

The Civil Service is embarked on a programme of renewal and building capability for the future. As we emerge from a period of challenge, we want to identify a pool of talent for appointment to management positions at the level of Assistant Principal. This is a critical post in terms of ensuring quality service delivery to the public.

The role is a hugely diverse one, the context of which can vary widely. Assistant Principals have a critical management role in implementing government policy in the economic, financial, international, environmental and/or social arenas.

In addition, positions as First Secretary in the diplomatic service of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade will be filled from this competition.

We welcome applications from high calibre individuals with an interest in public affairs and a commitment to public service, who are capable of contributing to the strategic direction of the organisation. Ideal candidates will be experienced managers, with high levels of energy, drive, resilience, motivation and the proven ability to deliver objectives.

Should be a doddle for some posters

Roger Hassenforder · 29-05-2015 10:25AM

JillyQ wrote: »

Maybe it was. But then take another private sector thing in with private buses againist bus eireann again they are more successful and more profitable.

We'll take that as "I'm wrong" then re the driving licences?

Roger Hassenforder · 29-05-2015 10:27AM

JillyQ wrote: »

Maybe it was. But then take another private sector thing in with private buses againist bus eireann again they are more successful and more profitable.

Are they carrying half the passenger's for free?

crusier · 29-05-2015 10:42AM

Jawgap wrote: »

For all the PS critics......you're moment has arrived.......

Want an easy job, free money and a gold plated pension?

Apply here.......

Assistant Principal in the Civil Service incorporating First Secretary in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade

Should be a doddle for some posters

They probably expect to be head hunted!

29-05-2015 11:09AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Did not say leeches said over paid. Again any justification for the 21k starting vs as low as 15 in the private sector ?

All that tells us is there are employers in the private sector who treat people like dogs by paying them a pittance. I was getting paid more than 15k when I was a PhD student I wouldn't turn over in bed for it in a job.

JillyQ · 29-05-2015 11:18AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Are they carrying half the passenger's for free?

On some they are or at least were honouring the free travel scheme.

Roger Hassenforder · 29-05-2015 11:27AM

JillyQ wrote: »

On some they are or at least were honouring the free travel scheme.

"Are"? "Were"?
Unconditionally?

JillyQ · 29-05-2015 11:47AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

"Are"? "Were"?
Unconditionally?

No they expected to be paid for it, seeing as they were not getting anywhere near the amount of state funding that bus eireann is getting.

the_syco · 29-05-2015 11:52AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Did not say leeches said over paid. Again any justification for the 21k starting vs as low as 15 in the private sector ?

As €15k is below minimum wage, I'd say they are dependent on some sort of state handouts to keep above the breadline.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What race to the bottom, It's a pretty easy role to do 1 day training would probably cover it. 21k seems quite well paid and that's just the starting wage.

If you want people to apply, you have to offer incentive.
You have speed or efficiency. You can have one person fly through things, or have two people go through the documents at a reasonable pace. And no, you won't get someone who can fly through something at 100%, as they'd be working for a better wage in the private sector...

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nope I was hired into a particular branch of IT, Unlike the universal role of Clerical officer which is a general dog's body role helping out someone else. You known to free up their time from mundane activities to do something. I'm a Server Engineer if you are interested.

The reason why I haven't tried to become a Clerical Officer in the past decade is that you don't seem to be given a choice to what sector you're put into. I could have gotten a role that I'd be trained for, but probably not.

JillyQ wrote: »

Maybe it was. But then take another private sector thing in with private buses againist bus eireann again they are more successful and more profitable.

Do the private sector buses go through all those towns that only BE go through? One thing I liked about the private companies were that they avoided all the towns. But without BE, would there be any other publicly accessible transport links?

Jawgap wrote: »

For example, there is no NDLS centre in Dublin City Centre! In Dublin you go to Santry, Clare Hall, Leopardstown or Citywest - but that's the private sector for you - go where the costs are lowest rather than where the services are needed

Also called "not spending millions on a plush office on Grafton street" :pac:

JillyQ · 29-05-2015 11:58AM

Do the private sector buses go through all those towns that only BE go through? One thing I liked about the private companies were that they avoided all the towns. But without BE, would there be any other publicly accessible transport links?

They do on routes where they are contracted to.

Jawgap · 29-05-2015 12:10PM

JillyQ wrote: »

On some they are or at least were honouring the free travel scheme.

the difference is, the private bus operators record each SW journey and are paid a fee in respect of it (fixed, regardless of distance travelled).

BE and BAC, afaik, get a lump sum to cover their participation in the scheme - meaning, in an extreme example, they potentially forego revenue passengers for SW passengers.

Now, that is not necessarily a bad thing from a social / fairness perspective, but it limits BE & BAC from recovering their costs. Ideally, they should be able to charge DSP a fee for each journey undertaken, but that would just mean taxes going through DSP to get to BAC and BE, audits, billing etc - better, from an administrative efficiency point of view, to just agree a lump sum and hand that over.

Jawgap · 29-05-2015 12:15PM

the_syco wrote: »

......

Also called "not spending millions on a plush office on Grafton street" :pac:

Doesn't have to be on Grafton street - there are plenty of publicly owned buildings in the city centre, the State could allocate some space to them in one of them and charge a market rate........

.......but that would eat into their cost base. The main problem was the contract specc'ed that offices should be provided such that 95% of the population were within 50km of an NLDS office. NDLS, in fairness to them, have complied, but you'd have to question whether they've put their offices in places where their customers can easily reach them - especially as a significant portion of them are applying for permits so probably can't drive!

For example, Hammam buildings - stick an NDLS office in there, along with Revenue - and you start to have the makings of one-stop shop facilities.

Jawgap · 29-05-2015 12:17PM

JillyQ wrote: »

Do the private sector buses go through all those towns that only BE go through? One thing I liked about the private companies were that they avoided all the towns. But without BE, would there be any other publicly accessible transport links?

They do on routes where they are contracted to.

If you de-regulate the private companies can set up new routes more easily. Leave BE to do the socially, but economically impractical, routes and let the bus companies innovate.

The route network shouldn't be finite or fixed.

JillyQ · 29-05-2015 12:19PM

Jawgap wrote: »

the difference is, the private bus operators record each SW journey and are paid a fee in respect of it (fixed, regardless of distance travelled).

BE and BAC, afaik, get a lump sum to cover their participation in the scheme - meaning, in an extreme example, they potentially forego revenue passengers for SW passengers.

Now, that is not necessarily a bad thing from a social / fairness perspective, but it limits BE & BAC from recovering their costs. Ideally, they should be able to charge DSP a fee for each journey undertaken, but that would just mean taxes going through DSP to get to BAC and BE, audits, billing etc - better, from an administrative efficiency point of view, to just agree a lump sum and hand that over.

I wasnt a 100% sure how they did it. But surely if BE are getting a lump sum each year they know what it is need to budget for it, just like any private company would have to do. That i think is the problem BE aren't looking to remedy areas in which this can be done. Im not talking about taking routes away from areas that arent profitable, there has to be other ways of them coming in on budget

Jawgap · 29-05-2015 12:31PM

JillyQ wrote: »

I wasnt a 100% sure how they did it. But surely if BE are getting a lump sum each year they know what it is need to budget for it, just like any private company would have to do. That i think is the problem BE aren't looking to remedy areas in which this can be done. Im not talking about taking routes away from areas that arent profitable, there has to be other ways of them coming in on budget

there is - take the politicians out of the equation, spin off the company and set up a proper client management unit in the NTA.

People think public servants lack ability, imagination and inventiveness because of the services they experience - they forget the services, the changes etc go through a political process and having done that the operational 'solution' is the returned for implementation.

If you want better services vote in more imaginative politicians instead of blaming the public servants.

Not going to happen though because there's no votes in it.

JillyQ · 29-05-2015 12:41PM

Jawgap wrote: »

there is - take the politicians out of the equation, spin off the company and set up a proper client management unit in the NTA.

People think public servants lack ability, imagination and inventiveness because of the services they experience - they forget the services, the changes etc go through a political process and having done that the operational 'solution' is the returned for implementation.

If you want better services vote in more imaginative politicians instead of blaming the public servants.

Not going to happen though because there's no votes in it.

Maybe is this was actually implented they might have some hope of that happening

https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=2c57c37d-50c4-e211-a5a0-005056a32ee4

Jawgap · 29-05-2015 01:08PM

JillyQ wrote: »

Maybe is this was actually implented they might have some hope of that happening

https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?aid=2c57c37d-50c4-e211-a5a0-005056a32ee4

never going to happen - no party is going to willingly give up power and patronage. You only have to look at FG - is anyone really suggesting they are giving us the 'different' government they promised us? They're just like FF only not subtle when it comes to stroke-pulling.

......and if you want to see what happens in political parties when a Taoiseach appoints a person to the Senate so they can nominate them as a minister have a look at Fitzgerald's memoirs in respect of James Dooge.

Rothmans · 29-05-2015 01:09PM

JillyQ wrote: »

I wasnt a 100% sure how they did it. But surely if BE are getting a lump sum each year they know what it is need to budget for it, just like any private company would have to do. That i think is the problem BE aren't looking to remedy areas in which this can be done. Im not talking about taking routes away from areas that arent profitable, there has to be other ways of them coming in on budget

Surely that would entail cutting services to rural routes and routes on which there are a large proportion of DSP customers, which completely contradicts the notion of a public service.

JillyQ · 29-05-2015 01:19PM

Rothmans wrote: »

Surely that would entail cutting services to rural routes and routes on which there are a large proportion of DSP customers, which completely contradicts the notion of a public service.

Why would you automatically assume it involves cutting services?

Public sector pay increase

Comments