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Today consensus, tomorrows prejudice.

12467…12

Comments

  • #92
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    SummerSummit wrote: »
    I looked it up just now, I don't think surgery solves many problems.

    I would be interested to see further research on this. I doubt many are due to the gender reassignment itself which is a slow process with a lot of psychology testing. Maybe it's that society often treats transgender people badly, I would like to know for each of those suicides what was their support network, did family and friends stand by them etc


  • #93
    Nucular Arms
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Nucular Arms


    I would love for it to be the case that in 20 years time we had knocked cheap fashion produced off the backs of child slaves in third world countries.

    It's one of these weird, open secrets that the entire fashion industry (yes, even, if not especially designer labels) is produced in what are tantamount to sweatshops staffed by children in poor countries, but nobody seems to mind as long as they can run in to penney's and grab 6 t shirts for a fiver, or what have you.


  • #94
    SummerSummit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭SummerSummit


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    Did you even read your own link?

    Yes the conclusion of the research being:
    Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.


  • #95
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Ok I looked it up and and a white trans woman in america has a 1 in 12 chance of being murdered in their lifetime , while a black trans woman has a 1 in 8 chance of being murdered in their lifetime.
    Average lifespan of a trans woman is just 30 years, due to crazily disproportionately high suicide, homicide, homelessness, poverty and incarceration rates.

    A black cis man has a 1-in-21 chance of being murdered in his lifetime; white men have a 1-in-131 chance; white women a 1-in-369 chance and black women a 1-in-104 chance.

    And I tried looking for info on prostitute homicide rates, but there isn't very much out there. Murder cases of prostitutes are very hard to solve, but this seems like fairly reliable info in this article.http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2012/05/25/prostitutes-are-not-42-times-more-likely-to-be-murdered-than-the-typical-american-noh/

    I didn't realise transgender people were treated so badly by society. Some of the statistics in this post and others are truly shocking. Of course gender reassignment should be provided by the state where there is a public healthcare system. Why is it any less deserving than other medical conditions? This is definately something that needs dealing with.


  • #96
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    SummerSummit wrote: »
    Yes the conclusion of the research being:

    Which does not translate to "I don't think surgery solves many problems".

    In fact, a few google links down from the study you found, there is an interesting wordpress site which gives references and completely disses that Swedish study:
    https://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/the-myth-of-post-op-regret-and-suicidality/
    People using this study do so selectively. Let me explain the statistical manipulation going on with gender surgery detractors and the myth they try to construct.

    First they note that general population rates for suicidality are around 1.6% in the United States. Then they note that suicidality rates for post-op transsexual people are about 4.1%. They then claim that since this is “hundreds of percent higher” that surgery does not work.

    But let’s talk about the reality. What is that reality? It is that the pre-op suicidality rate for transsexuals is 41%!!!

    Yep, that’s right. Pre-op rates of suicidality for transsexuals are 1000% higher than post-op rates. How do we know this? From the UCLA Williams Institute study Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults. (Warning! PDF!)

    And the Swedish study actually supports gender surgery. Their conclusion?

    This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

    Note what is said very, very gently and in careful scientific language: “This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up.”

    So what detractors are doing is selective statistical selection to “prove” their biased point. When we take the entire picture, we see that gender surgery actually reduces suicide rates to 1/10th of what they were pre-op. And, as the Swedish study concludes, what trans people need is more support, not because they are trans, but because too many people in society today are just ignorant assholes.


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  • #97
    PowerToWait
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭PowerToWait


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Concentration camps....oh lordy. They've some way to go yet before they're at that stage.


    "A camp where persons are confined, usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group the government has identified as suspect."

    Not so very far from our Direct Provision sites. In fact almost bang on.


  • #98
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »
    What, if any, issue or group do you believe is treated in a manner today which twenty years hence when Ireland looks back will be seen as reprehensible and discriminatory?

    Politicians!

    20 years from now (hopefully), we will look back on the clowns who have been leading us and consider ourselves reprehensible for allowing them to have power!

    We are led by the least among us. None of them are fit to be leaders of anything - I wouldn't let them lead a conga line!

    There is zero integrity, honesty or bravery left in our political class! :(


  • #99
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    The way we treat animals needs to be addressed, and yes I sat this as a hypocritical meat eater. When I look at my gorgeous pets and other beautiful animals I can't stand to think about them being treated badly. I don't know how anyone could intentionally hurt or mistreat an animal.


  • #100
    Dwarf.Shortage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭Dwarf.Shortage


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    The way we treat animals needs to be addressed, and yes I sat this as a hypocritical meat eater. When I look at my gorgeous pets and other beautiful animals I can't stand to think about them being treated badly. I don't know how anyone could intentionally hurt or mistreat an animal.

    If vegetarians love animals so much why do they keep eating their food?


  • #101
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    The way we treat animals needs to be addressed, and yes I sat this as a hypocritical meat eater. When I look at my gorgeous pets and other beautiful animals I can't stand to think about them being treated badly. I don't know how anyone could intentionally hurt or mistreat an animal.

    We could just kill all the ugly ones...? :D


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  • #102
    SummerSummit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭SummerSummit


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    Which does not translate to "I don't think surgery solves many problems".

    In fact, a few google links down from the study you found, there is an interesting wordpress site which gives references and completely disses that Swedish study:
    https://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/the-myth-of-post-op-regret-and-suicidality/

    Wordpress is a blog. The research I pointed to was in one of the top peer reviewed scientific journal.


  • #103
    WeHaveToGoBack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 355 ✭✭WeHaveToGoBack


    Paedophilia (the mental state) will be viewed differently to actually abusing children.

    The former should get support and help.


  • #104
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    We could just kill all the ugly ones...? :D

    Yeah I'm a total hypocrite, I kill crawly things in my house. Well I don't actually, I get my cat, my little spider catcher, and knock it off the wall in front of her so she kills it for me. :P


  • #105
    Roquentin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Roquentin


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    The way we treat animals needs to be addressed, and yes I sat this as a hypocritical meat eater. When I look at my gorgeous pets and other beautiful animals I can't stand to think about them being treated badly. I don't know how anyone could intentionally hurt or mistreat an animal.

    i second that. i would hope in twenty years time east asia has cleaned up its animal welfare considerably. dogs and cats are slaughtered on the streets, moon bears are locked in cages for life and the number of rhinos being killed to fuel demand in asia is awful.


  • #106
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Honestly, I know things are getting better when I don't have to come along to a thread like this and post gigantic replies to all the nonsense.

    I seriously breathed a huge sigh of relief reading this thread. You've made my evening AH ;)
    SummerSummit wrote: »
    The research I pointed to was in one of the top peer reviewed scientific journal.

    ...that you're selectively quoting and misrepresenting.


  • #107
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Links234 wrote: »
    Honestly, I know things are getting better when I don't have to come along to a thread like this and post gigantic replies to all the nonsense.

    I seriously breathed a huge sigh of relief reading this thread. You've seriously made my evening AH ;)

    They have been silenced remember! :P


  • #108
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Or maybe not! ^


  • #109
    silverfeather
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,154 ✭✭✭silverfeather


    Roquentin wrote: »
    i second that. i would hope in twenty years time east asia has cleaned up its animal welfare considerably. dogs and cats are slaughtered on the streets, moon bears are locked in cages for life and the number of rhinos being killed to fuel demand in asia is awful.
    I hope so too but I doubt it. It seems to be getting worse. Human rights as a concept don't exist in some of those countries.

    But we in the west partake in that by proxy often.


  • #110
    silverfeather
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,154 ✭✭✭silverfeather


    Zoologist wrote: »
    Cool story, but that's unrelated to my point.
    You are quite pointless. This is quite pointless what you are doing here. You should feel bad.


  • #111
    SummerSummit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭SummerSummit


    Links234 wrote: »


    ...that you're selectively quoting and misrepresenting.

    Eh how exactly? I posted the full conclusion of the study & a link to the full report, nothing else. No selective quoting and no misrepresenting the findings.


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  • #112
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,635 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Roquentin wrote: »
    i second that. i would hope in twenty years time east asia has cleaned up its animal welfare considerably. dogs and cats are slaughtered on the streets, moon bears are locked in cages for life and the number of rhinos being killed to fuel demand in asia is awful.

    In 20 years time, the Western Worlds ignorance of the East will have deminished and we will realise that we many of us were hypocrites and just plain ignorant.

    We hunt animals for sport over here.
    We mass produce many types of animals, in terrible conditions, that have no life other than to become our food.
    We force feed animals.
    We keep birds in cages all their lives.
    Etc Etc Etc

    But ya, they need to clean up their act.


  • #113
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Roquentin wrote: »
    i second that. i would hope in twenty years time east asia has cleaned up its animal welfare considerably. dogs and cats are slaughtered on the streets, moon bears are locked in cages for life and the number of rhinos being killed to fuel demand in asia is awful.

    Think asia has some serious human welfare issues to clean up before we even touch the subject of animal welfare :pac:


  • #114
    silverfeather
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,154 ✭✭✭silverfeather


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Think asia has some serious human welfare issues to clean up before we even touch the subject of animal welfare :pac:
    I agree with you. But there does seem to be a link in societies with the way we treat humans and then animals.

    Just be nice like!


  • #115
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    Since we're talking about china...

    I think the world will start to develop measures to deal with over population. We might see certain laws put in place that prohibit certain people from procreating! (look up ^^^) ;)


  • #116
    Dwarf.Shortage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭Dwarf.Shortage


    I've noticed two or three individuals in here proliferating very antiquated views on social issues with post counts below ten.

    A prize will be given to anyone who guesses what their username was before the same sex marriage vote made arguing credibly given their posting history impossible. If you're going to believe abhorrent tripe at least be willing to stand over it.


  • #117
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,784 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    The OP mentioned that 20 years ago the idea of gay marriage was regarded as preposterous by the Seanad. Also 20 years ago I cannot remember the acronym LGBT being used in this country. Something which has struck me is the lack of any consideration for the B element, bisexuals, in the referendum debate.

    In 20 years time following a gradual campaign like the one which resulted in the referendum it is probable that the State will have recognised their situation in legislation. Allowing them to enter into a marriage with a man and a woman in order to validate their sexual orientation.


  • #118
    silverfeather
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,154 ✭✭✭silverfeather


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Allowing them to enter into a marriage with a man and a woman in order to validate their sexual orientation.
    B.S down with polygamy monogamy all the way. I am bisexual ...I am all for monogamy.


  • #119
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    silverfeather wrote: »
    You clearly know very little about evolution 'Zoologist'.

    Actually his question is a good one.

    There is a conspiracy to forget in most of the weaker and social sciences regarding homosexuality. Psychologists saw it as a mental disorder just a generation ago, this was influenced by Freud and Jung, not the church.


  • #120
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    SummerSummit wrote: »
    Eh how exactly? I posted the full conclusion of the study & a link to the full report, nothing else. No selective quoting and no misrepresenting the findings.

    Stefanovich suggested that suicidality in trans people could be due to sex reassignment in this post, Mr.Walsh asked here if they could back that up, to which you replied here with a selective quote and misrepresenting the study. The study does not compare suicide rates pre- and post- surgery trans people, it compares post-op trans people to non-trans people and calls for better follow up care. It doesn't say what you're pretending it says.

    Don't suggest something then weasle out of it, I've done this dance far too often and it looks like people aren't biting the propaganda any more.

    G'night AH! Looks like I don't have much to do here ;)


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  • #121
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    The OP mentioned that 20 years ago the idea of gay marriage was regarded as preposterous by the Seanad. Also 20 years ago I cannot remember the acronym LGBT being used in this country. Something which has struck me is the lack of any consideration for the B element, bisexuals, in the referendum debate.

    In 20 years time following a gradual campaign like the one which resulted in the referendum it is probable that the State will have recognised their situation in legislation. Allowing them to enter into a marriage with a man and a woman in order to validate their sexual orientation.

    I'm bisexual, it's fine the way it is thanks


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