Today consensus, tomorrows prejudice.

eviltwin · 27-05-2015 09:22PM

stefanovich wrote: »

If you are an adult then fine. It is your body. Pay for it with medical insurance perhaps?

I don't see why it should tbh. The State has a duty of care to provide health care to everyone.

silverfeather · 27-05-2015 09:22PM

In no particular order.

Transpeople. Children's rights. Abortion (in this country anyway). Assisted suicide. Immigration and Asylum. Animal rights. Racism. Travellors rights.

stefanovich wrote: »

If you are an adult then fine. It is your body. Pay for it with medical insurance perhaps?

Then it must be a medical issue obviously.

Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth may do because of biological issues related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones.

eviltwin · 27-05-2015 09:23PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Perhaps I think they are generally very troubled and confused people who need help but perhaps not surgical.

I think there is something very troubling about a person wanting to alter their gender. I doubt I am ignorant.

What kind of help would you suggest?

jjC123 · 27-05-2015 09:23PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Perhaps I think they are generally very troubled and confused people who need help but perhaps not surgical.

I think there is something very troubling about a person wanting to alter their gender. I doubt I am ignorant.

They're not altering their gender though, they're changing their physical sex. Gender is more a label of identity. i.e a man born into a womans body as opposed to a woman wanting to become a man.

And in reply to your comment on sex work, that is usually down to circumstance, much the way common prostitutes don't tend to come from well adjusted middle income families/

stefanovich · 27-05-2015 09:24PM

silverfeather wrote: »

Transpeople. Children's rights. Abortion (in this country anyway). Assisted suicide. Immigration and Asylum. Animal rights. Racism.

Then is must be a medical issue obviously.

Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth may do because of biological issues related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones.

Suggest. May.

Those kinds of words don't scream certainty or conclusion.

SummerSummit · 27-05-2015 09:24PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't see why it should tbh. The State has a duty of care to provide health care to everyone.

Hormone therapy yes, but gender reassignment surgery is more of a cosmetic then a medical need?

frostyjacks · 27-05-2015 09:25PM

PowerToWait wrote: »

You can get that in jail too. I personally know 5 people who have been in that system over 7 years.

Take yourself off to Mosney and live cheek by jowl with scores of others in the same boat, for say 5 years, with no end in sight, festering, 19 quid a week for a few bits.

These places are essentially concentration camps, in the strict sense of the phrase.

Concentration camps....oh lordy. They've some way to go yet before they're at that stage. I'd love for us to treat them better, but there's only so much money to go round. Truth is, they're far better off in the accommodation we're paying for than what they'd be experiencing back home.

eviltwin · 27-05-2015 09:27PM

SummerSummit wrote: »

Hormone therapy yes, but gender reassignment surgery is more of a cosmetic then a medical need?

I'd imagine it's a massive psychological need too.

jjC123 · 27-05-2015 09:27PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Suggest. May.

Those kinds of words don't scream certainty or conclusion.

Evidence suggest that gravity exists. But science refuses to confirm anything without 100% certainty which is why it's the theory of gravity. Same principle applies in medicine

MrWalsh · 27-05-2015 09:27PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Suggest. May.

Those kinds of words don't scream certainty or conclusion.

My last knee surgery was accompanied by a speech from the surgeon telling me it might work, he hoped I'd get a good result, if things didn't work out we could have another think about further action.

Medicine isn't an exact science in case you hadn't noticed.

tritium · 27-05-2015 09:29PM

Fathers rights and attitudes to male domestic violence victims I hope

No more worthy than any of the other topics on this thread...

But no less worthy either.

MrWalsh · 27-05-2015 09:29PM

SummerSummit wrote: »

Hormone therapy yes, but gender reassignment surgery is more of a cosmetic then a medical need?

Cosmetic? It's functional!

stefanovich · 27-05-2015 09:29PM

eviltwin wrote: »

What kind of help would you suggest?

Counselling for a start. Try to get them to explore what the reasons behind the change might be? A lot of post op transsexuals commit suicide. Perhaps in some cases it is because of regret?

They need to fully explore their reasons and get psychiatric green light beforehand?

jjC123 wrote: »

They're not altering their gender though, they're changing their physical sex. Gender is more a label of identity. i.e a man born into a womans body as opposed to a woman wanting to become a man.

And in reply to your comment on sex work, that is usually down to circumstance, much the way common prostitutes don't tend to come from well adjusted middle income families/

Gender is physical sex unless we are now redefining the dictionary.

I think a lot of the time it is to pay for their expensive surgery. I can't help but think they must be hypersexual what with a lot wanting both male and female parts.

jjC123 · 27-05-2015 09:29PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

Concentration camps....oh lordy. They've some way to go yet before they're at that stage. I'd love for us to treat them better, but there's only so much money to go round. Truth is, they're far better off in the accommodation we're paying for than what they'd be experiencing back home.

'Yeah, your living conditions aren't fit for animals and we'll leave you in limbo being unable to work or earn any sort of human dignity but shur look, at least theres no fear of female genital mutilation or genocide'

Sheldons Brain · 27-05-2015 09:31PM

In the future people will be appalled that we used cut up a foetus rather than simply using contraception to prevent pregnancy or using medical science to repair defects. As homosexuality is one of the defects that science can address the idea of two people of the same sex getting married will seem the stuff of comedy. Cancer will be a thing of the past, but we may have to worry about infection.

eviltwin · 27-05-2015 09:31PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Counselling for a start. Try to get them to explore what the reasons behind the change might be? A lot of post op transsexuals commit suicide. Perhaps in some cases it is because of regret?

They need to fully explore their reasons and get psychiatric green light beforehand?

Gender is physical sex unless we are now redefining the dictionary.

I think a lot of the time it is to pay for their expensive surgery. I can't help but think they must be hypersexual what with a lot wanting both make and female parts.

This sounds very like the treatments suggested for homosexuality back in the day.....

I don't know why people get so uncomfortable with the idea of transgenderism.
Genuine concern or something else?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 27-05-2015 09:32PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Counselling for a start. Try to get them to explore what the reasons behind the change might be? A lot of post op transsexuals commit suicide. Perhaps in some cases it is because of regret?

They need to fully explore their reasons and get psychiatric green light beforehand?

Gender is physical sex unless we are now redefining the dictionary.

I think a lot of the time it is to pay for their expensive surgery. I can't help but think they must be hypersexual what with a lot wanting both male and female parts.

wow

eviltwin · 27-05-2015 09:34PM

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

In the future people will be appalled that we used cut up a foetus rather than simply using contraception to prevent pregnancy or using medical science to repair defects. As homosexuality is one of the defects that science can address the idea of two people of the same sex getting married will seem the stuff of comedy. Cancer will be a thing of the past, but we may have to worry about infection.

Homosexuality is a defect? Since when?

silverfeather · 27-05-2015 09:34PM

stefanovich wrote: »

I think there is something very troubling about a person wanting to alter their gender. I doubt I am ignorant.

Does that not make you empathize more with them? You would hate to have the opposite sex organs to the gender you are. It's a mental block in your mind.
It is very distressing to have gender dysphoria. It is due to medical reasons.

Why would hormonal treatment be medical and surgical treatment be cosmetic

Suggest. May.

It has been shown and proven by the medical community that female transwomen have female characteristics in their brains. That was simply my wording.

Also consider their mental anguish.

I have issues with prostitution myself. I think it's cold. You can't dehumanize the vulnerable though. They are people. I have a dim view of that world. But you have to ask questions.

But you have to remember a lot of transpeople perhaps do it to get the money to pay for surgery. And perhaps because there is so much prejudice in the employment world. If we could remedy this it would be so much better for them as people and society.
It's not right to fetishize transpeople or demean them. They are men and women. If we welcomed them into society it would be acknowledging their fundamental rights and be better for society.

jjC123 · 27-05-2015 09:34PM

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

In the future people will be appalled that we used cut up a foetus rather than simply using contraception to prevent pregnancy or using medical science to repair defects. As homosexuality is one of the defects that science can address the idea of two people of the same sex getting married will seem the stuff of comedy. Cancer will be a thing of the past, but we may have to worry about infection.

No evidence that " homosexuality is a defect". Please provide source for this groundbreaking medical claim. I have a great interest in neuroscience and would love to read up on it

27-05-2015 09:34PM

jjC123 wrote: »

I'd agree with abolishing 'class' as a word but 'low income background' still sounds less desirable than 'high income background'.

High and low perceived social class only tends to be correlated with high and low income respectively, it isn't the determining factor. I appreciate that when the population of an area is large enough, social strata tend to emerge due to people not being equal in talent, work ethic etc. but you can have a more desirable income/job than others without being a snob, especially towards young people from poor areas who are not responsible for their parents low socioeconomic status... maybe i'm way off the mark, but I'd personally just love to live in a world where snobbery is taboo - I'm not a commie, i realise wanting to redistribute income is not a good idea, there will always be financial inequality etc. but you can be considered to have a desirable income and job without being a snob

MrWalsh · 27-05-2015 09:34PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Counselling for a start. Try to get them to explore what the reasons behind the change might be? A lot of post op transsexuals commit suicide. Perhaps in some cases it is because of regret?

They need to fully explore their reasons and get psychiatric green light beforehand?

Gender is physical sex unless we are now redefining the dictionary.

I think a lot of the time it is to pay for their expensive surgery. I can't help but think they must be hypersexual what with a lot wanting both make and female parts.

Sorry but this is complete rubbish. What statistics can you produce to back this claim of a lot of post operative suicide among transgender patients? And that it is because of regret? You're just projecting.

There is counselling, there is a long period of living as the new gender to see how successful that is before any surgery.

Gender is not just physical sex.

As for your hyper sexual comment, please stop being so offensive and educate yourself.

wakka12 · 27-05-2015 09:37PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Right to what may I ask? Right to have gender reassignment as a child? Or at the expense of the state?

Could have a lot to do with a large number of them being sex workers. How does it measure up to women in prostitution?

Ok I looked it up and and a white trans woman in america has a 1 in 12 chance of being murdered in their lifetime , while a black trans woman has a 1 in 8 chance of being murdered in their lifetime.
Average lifespan of a trans woman is just 30 years, due to crazily disproportionately high suicide, homicide, homelessness, poverty and incarceration rates.

A black cis man has a 1-in-21 chance of being murdered in his lifetime; white men have a 1-in-131 chance; white women a 1-in-369 chance and black women a 1-in-104 chance.

And I tried looking for info on prostitute homicide rates, but there isn't very much out there. Murder cases of prostitutes are very hard to solve, but this seems like fairly reliable info in this article.http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2012/05/25/prostitutes-are-not-42-times-more-likely-to-be-murdered-than-the-typical-american-noh/

MrWalsh · 27-05-2015 09:38PM

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

In the future people will be appalled that we used cut up a foetus rather than simply using contraception to prevent pregnancy or using medical science to repair defects. As homosexuality is one of the defects that science can address the idea of two people of the same sex getting married will seem the stuff of comedy. Cancer will be a thing of the past, but we may have to worry about infection.

Enforced pregnancy of living conscious women will be considered far more appalling.

Homosexuality a defect? I think you need to reign in the homophobia there.

MrWalsh · 27-05-2015 09:38PM

Fall Blau wrote: »

Lol, most people once thought the world was flat.

Yes, they were ignorant.

G_R · 27-05-2015 09:40PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Homosexuality is a defect? Since when?

Mod: it's not. The post has been actioned. Let's leave it there.

jjC123 · 27-05-2015 09:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

High and low perceived social class only tends to be correlated with high and low income respectively, it isn't the determining factor. I appreciate that when the population of an area is large enough, social strata tend to emerge due to people not being equal in talent, work ethic etc. but you can have a more desirable income/job than others without being a snob, especially towards young people from poor areas who are not responsible for their parents low socioeconomic status... maybe i'm way off the mark, but I'd personally just love to live in a world where snobbery is taboo - I'm not a commie, i realise wanting to redistribute income is not a good idea, there will always be financial inequality etc. but you can be considered to have a desirable income and job without being a snob

I agree with what you're saying but how do you put terms on the socioeconomic differences of children? When a teacher is trying to get more resources from the department for their students with less money do they refer to them as 'working class/disadvantaged/low socioeconomic status'? Because there has to be a distinction because a very bright child who struggles financially will come with a different set of needs than a richer child with learning disabilities

silverfeather · 27-05-2015 09:43PM

jjC123 wrote: »

I agree with what you're saying but how do you put terms on the socioeconomic differences of children? When a teacher is trying to get more resources from the department for their students with less money do they refer to them as 'working class/disadvantaged/low socioeconomic status'? Because there has to be a distinction because people a very bright child who struggles financially come with a different set of needs than a richer child with learning disabilities

You will find the facilities both equally ****. Shame on our state.

SummerSummit · 27-05-2015 09:46PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Sorry but this is complete rubbish. What statistics can you produce to back this claim of a lot of post operative suicide among transgender patients? And that it is because of regret? You're just projecting.

I looked it up just now, I don't think surgery solves many problems.

Conclusions

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

MrWalsh · 27-05-2015 09:54PM

SummerSummit wrote: »

I looked it up just now, I don't think surgery solves many problems.

Did you even read your own link?

In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment.

Today consensus, tomorrows prejudice.

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