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8th Amendment

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    #92
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    P_1 wrote: »
    Ever heard of the phrase involving camels, straws and damaged vertebrae?

    Not good enough I'm afraid.

    Explain to me why you would delete the right to life of unborn babies based on that one case.


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    #93
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Not good enough I'm afraid.

    Explain to me why you would delete the right to life of unborn babies based on that one case.

    That's some leap you have made there...

    Where did you get the impression that I'd want to repeal the 8th based on one disgusting incident?

    It's that incident, the other outrage to decency in Galway, fatal fetal anomalies and the general state of limbo a woman enters in this country once they fall pregnant that lead me to strongly believe that the 8th is not fit for purpose and is beyond repair. Simply scrap it and replace it with a law more befitting a secular republic in the 21st century.


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    #94
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    P_1 wrote: »
    That's some leap you have made there...

    Where did you get the impression that I'd want to repeal the 8th based on one disgusting incident?

    It's that incident, the other outrage to decency in Galway, fatal fetal anomalies and the general state of limbo a woman enters in this country once they fall pregnant that lead me to strongly believe that the 8th is not fit for purpose and is beyond repair. Simply scrap it and replace it with a law more befitting a secular republic in the 21st century.

    Your previous reply obviously.

    Anyway, we're a long way off now.

    No doubt the abortion obsessives in the Socialist Party and Socialist Workers Party will go for it gung ho.

    But it can only happen if Labour force it onto a programme for Government and if they do, it will be two or three years before the vote. And then I can't see the Irish people turning their backs on unborn babies and their mothers.

    We'll see closer to the event.


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    #95
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    All we can do as a country is set a standard f decency.
    Pretending that Irish women don't have abortions just because they're not legal here is your definition of decency?
    Protecting unborn life while at the same time providing for the needs (financial and moral) for expectant mothers should be that standard, in my view.
    If it worked, you might have a point. It doesn't. The standard "pro-life" approach of pretending that Irish women don't have abortions is nothing but a bare-faced lie, and one you seem all too happy to live.
    Killing unborn babies is a clear sign society has failed. thankfully, Ireland has yet to admit such defeat. Succumbing to the abortion industry and those who advocate for it in Liberal circles will have the opportunity to put their case when the time comes. I have confidence the Irish people will defend mother and unborn baby, but we'll see when and if the time comes. :)
    If you mean that the Irish people will buy into the lie that if we all pretend really, really hard that Irish women don't have abortions, I'm troubled that you might be right.

    But I'm not happy to live that lie, especially given the very high cost paid by those very same Irish women. If it's a price that you're happy to pay, well, that's up to you.


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    #96
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    ...the abortion obsessives...

    That, by the way, is an utterly repugnant phrase. You're probably incapable of understanding why.


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    #97
    inocybe
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    OK lads and lasses. If you're going to debate the issue, at least do so knowing the basics.

    Intentional taking of unborn life is a crime in this country. A fact clarified in last years X Case legislation.

    Destruction of unborn human life
    22.
    (1) It shall be an offence to intentionally destroy unborn human life.

    (2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.

    So it's a crime, but we don't want to jail anyone for it because we know how outrageous that is? What a joke.


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    #98
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,094 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Tragic case indeed.

    A proper decision was made to turn off life support to the mother.
    Not until her body was rotting in front of her distressed children though.

    That isn't necessary in other jurisdictions. you may think it's no harm to traumatize children like that. I don't agree.


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    #99
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Pretending that Irish women don't have abortions just because they're not legal here is your definition of decency? If it worked, you might have a point. It doesn't. The standard "pro-life" approach of pretending that Irish women don't have abortions is nothing but a bare-faced lie, and one you seem all too happy to live. If you mean that the Irish people will buy into the lie that if we all pretend really, really hard that Irish women don't have abortions, I'm troubled that you might be right.

    But I'm not happy to live that lie, especially given the very high cost paid by those very same Irish women. If it's a price that you're happy to pay, well, that's up to you.

    Defeatist attitudes like that are prevalent among many, unfortunately.

    Because abortions happen elsewhere, we should just give up and allow the abortion industry profiteer on the death of unborn boys and girls.

    thankfully there are enough people who stand up to this complacency and say no. Irish mothers and their babies deserve better. We should cherish mothers and their babies equally and set a Life standard, despite the regimes of misery all around us.


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    #100
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    inocybe wrote: »
    So it's a crime, but we don't want to jail anyone for it because we know how outrageous that is? What a joke.

    I fail to see any justice in jailing a woman who availed of an abortion. That takes nothing form the abhorrance of the abortion in the first place or the moral redundancy of those who work in the abortion industry.


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    #101
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,444 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Glenman wrote: »
    This will be like the SSM, everyone has a different opinion, I believe that God gave life and only he should take it away.

    God should be kept to your religious beliefs.

    God should now have any influence on the laws that a country makes.

    The fact is that prohibiting abortion has not solved any problems and only caused heartache for thousands.

    Time for the country to grow up, not to be so emotive on this subject and be realistic and change the law.


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    #102
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    murpho999 wrote: »
    God should be kept to your religious beliefs.

    God should now have any influence on the laws that a country makes.

    The fact is that prohibiting abortion has not solved any problems and only caused heartache for thousands.

    Time for the country to grow up, not to be so emotive on this subject and be realistic and change the law.

    Comments like we should 'grow up' as if growing up means we should sanction killing unborn babies n this country is just strange.


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    #103
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,444 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Defeatist attitudes like that are prevalent among many, unfortunately.

    Because abortions happen elsewhere, we should just give up and allow the abortion industry profiteer on the death of unborn boys and girls.

    thankfully there are enough people who stand up to this complacency and say no. Irish mothers and their babies deserve better. We should cherish mothers and their babies equally and set a Life standard, despite the regimes of misery all around us.

    So you are happy for a child to be born into a home where it may not be wanted or supported properly.

    At present people profit from Abortion but it's travel companies and foreign clinics.
    By the way there is no "abortion industry" , just like there is no "transplant industry" or "cancer industry" , it's all medicine/surgery. No need to dramatise the language.

    Ireland's resistance to this is blinkered and denying women their human rights to control their own bodies and it really is time to change.


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    #104
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,444 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Comments like we should 'grow up' as if growing up means we should sanction killing unborn babies n this country is just strange.

    Yes it is time for the country to grow up , just like it had too with gay rights (as in legalisation in 1993, contraception, divorce etc)

    So it's ok for babies to be "killed" somewhere else?

    WHat is your viewpoint on contraception.


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    #105
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    murpho999 wrote: »
    So you are happy for a child to be born into a home where it may not be wanted or supported properly.

    As opposed to being mutilated in the womb?

    Damn straight!

    I'm amazed you'd actually ask such a no brainer.


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    #106
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Yes it is time for the country to grow up , just like it had too with gay rights (as in legalisation in 1993, contraception, divorce etc)

    So it's ok for babies to be "killed" somewhere else?

    What is your viewpoint on contraception.

    So setting up a Marie Stopes Clinic on a street corner is growing up? Wow.


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    #107
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,444 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    As opposed to being mutilated in the womb?

    Damn straight!

    I'm amazed you'd actually ask such a no brainer.

    It's not a no-brainer and what you need to go away and think and read about.

    Why does a woman want the abortion in the first place?

    What impact will it have on her life by having it? For example if on drugs, or unemployed, an abusive relationship or just simply too young ? So many reasons.

    Are you happy to condemn a child to a potential life of eternal misery, unloved and in desperate poverty.
    Who are you to say that that woman cannot take charge of her own body and make the decision for herself.

    What is the difference anyway if she can just go abroad and get it?

    Pro-life supporters just focus on the emotive 'killing' issue but never think it through in my opinion.


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    #108
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Will we ever see a referendum to repeal this?

    I hope not. All child should have an equal chance of life. You can't have equality for some children and not for others.


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    #109
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,444 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    So setting up a Marie Stopes Clinic on a street corner is growing up? Wow.

    Yes it would be.

    Have a look at their website here.

    They even have a dedicated section for Irish & Spanish women.

    That is a damining enough indictment of our archaic laws in my opinion.


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    #110
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    murpho999 wrote: »
    It's not a no-brainer and what you need to go away and think and read about.

    Why does a woman want the abortion in the first place?

    What impact will it have on her life by having it? For example if on drugs, or unemployed, an abusive relationship or just simply too young ? So many reasons.

    Are you happy to condemn a child to a potential life of eternal misery, unloved and in desperate poverty.
    Who are you to say that that woman cannot take charge of her own body and make the decision for herself.

    What is the difference anyway if she can just go abroad and get it?

    Pro-life supporters just focus on the emotive 'killing' issue but never think it through in my opinion.

    Your arrogance is jaw dropping.

    You see fit to make a call to extinguish the life of a baby girl because her mother might not be able to care for her properly?

    Disgusting, flippant disregard for the right to life of all humans, born and unborn.


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    #111
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    Why does Marie Stopes have to pay an exmarketer £500k to run the "charity" ? Who happens to have ties to pharma industry?


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    #112
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Yes it would be.

    Have a look at their website here.

    They even have a dedicated section for Irish & Spanish women.

    That is a damining enough indictment of our archaic laws in my opinion.

    Promoting abortinoists is pretty low. :(


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    #113
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,444 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Your arrogance is jaw dropping.

    You see fit to make a call to extinguish the life of a baby girl because her mother might not be able to care for her properly?

    Disgusting, flippant disregard for the right to life of all humans, born and unborn.

    Don't think I'm being arrogant in giving a woman the right to decide her own destiny.

    You however are proposing that a child being brought up in a life of misery due to neglect is better than abortion.

    So who is arrogant?


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    #114
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,444 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Promoting abortinoists is pretty low. :(

    You mentioned them first. I never thought of them so thanks for that.

    They also do more that just abortions too you know but also a broad range of sexual health for both sexes.


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    #115
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Defeatist attitudes like that are prevalent among many, unfortunately.

    Because abortions happen elsewhere, we should just give up and allow the abortion industry profiteer on the death of unborn boys and girls.

    thankfully there are enough people who stand up to this complacency and say no. Irish mothers and their babies deserve better. We should cherish mothers and their babies equally and set a Life standard, despite the regimes of misery all around us.

    You're not listening.

    Banning abortion in Ireland doesn't prevent Irish women from having abortions.

    You may not care about that; it may be important for you to cling to the pretence that banning abortions in Ireland is "protecting" anyone. It's not.

    Your entire argument is a lie. All your bolloxology about "cherishing" women by forcing them to travel abroad to terminate their pregnancy is, frankly, sickening in its hypocrisy. But then, sickening hypocrisy has been the constant companion of every tooth-and-nail battle conservatives have fought against any form of social progress.


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    #116
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Don't think I'm being arrogant in giving a woman the right to decide her won destiny.

    You however are proposing that a child being brought up in a life of misery due to neglect is better than abortion.

    So who is arrogant?

    So basically some child should not have rights.. We should change our constition so that there wont be equality for all children? Gay rights fine...baby no.


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    #117
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,444 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    am946745 wrote: »
    So basically some child should not have rights.. We should change our constition so that there wont be equality for all children? Gay rights fine...baby no.

    When a child is at a certain term of pregnancy or born then it has rights.

    When it is nothing more than an embryo then a woman should be free to make their own choices free from criticism from fundamentalists who just think of one issue.


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    #118
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You're not listening.

    Banning abortion in Ireland doesn't prevent Irish women from having abortions.

    You may not care about that; it may be important for you to cling to the pretence that banning abortions in Ireland is "protecting" anyone. It's not.

    Your entire argument is a lie. All your bolloxology about "cherishing" women by forcing them to travel abroad to terminate their pregnancy is, frankly, sickening in its hypocrisy. But then, sickening hypocrisy has been the constant companion of every tooth-and-nail battle conservatives have fought against any form of social progress.


    Sorry the logic does not follow. Women have always had abortions, some women have abandoned their children, some killed them. WE as a society should support all women and treat all children equally. abortion is not equality, its false mercy, and industry with its own vested interests.


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    #119
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    am946745 wrote: »
    Sorry the logic does not follow. Women have always had abortions, some women have abandoned their children, some killed them. WE as a society should support all women and treat all children equally. abortion is not equality, its false mercy, and industry with its own vested interests.

    You're also not listening.

    It happens. It has always happened. It's always going to happen.

    Ramming your fingers in your ears and chanting "baby killers!" over and over again is not treating everyone equally; it's relegating women to incubators whose rights are subservient to a cluster of cells that isn't even a person yet.


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    #120
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You're also not listening.

    It happens. It has always happened. It's always going to happen.

    Ramming your fingers in your ears and chanting "baby killers!" over and over again is not treating everyone equally; it's relegating women to incubators whose rights are subservient to a cluster of cells that isn't even a person yet.

    If they wanted to get rid of a couple of cells they have the morning after pill, which is available all over ireland.

    And who determines who is a person?

    Our constution declares and gives rights from conception, why remove this equality?


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    #121
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,444 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    am946745 wrote: »
    If they wanted to get rid of a couple of cells they have the morning after pill, which is available all over ireland.

    And who determines who is a person?

    Our constution declares and gives rights from conception, why remove this equality?

    If you are ok with the morning after pill then what is your issue with abortion which is a similar thing in a different format at a later stage?


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