8th Amendment

Penny Tration

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

Thankfully there are enough sensible people in the country that abortion on demand like in the UK will never happen - not in our lifetimes anyway - here.

So go vote in the lefties all you want, won't matter.

You think there is. You don't know it.

Abortion on demand isn't available in the UK, btw.

No Voter And Proud

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

You think there is. You don't know it.

Abortion on demand isn't available in the UK, btw.

Abortion on demand is available in the UK.
You can't just say something doesnt exist when it does.

You call up, ask ("demand") an abortion, and one is supplied. Often times it's free in the NHS.

Black Menorca

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

You think there is. You don't know it.

Abortion on demand isn't available in the UK, btw.

I think a referndum to remove the right to life of unborn babies and to be replaced with legislation to liberalise abortion would be defeated 60-40.

However the pro liberalisation side will use the tragic cases of FFA as the thin end of the wedge.


Once abortion is sanctions in these circumstances, its only a matter of time until more and more reasons will be condoned.

That will be a core arguement of the Life side. Once is, we can never take it back.

Black Menorca

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

You think there is. You don't know it.

Abortion on demand isn't available in the UK, btw.

In fairness, lets be honest on both sides here. Abortion is available widely in the UK.

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

The 8th Amendment, combined with the X Case legislation is a wonderful bullwark against the evils of the abortion industry.

The 8th amendment actually legalized abortion in this country, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Black Menorca

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The 8th amendment actually legalized abortion in this country, so I'm not sure what your point is.

The 8th enshrines the equal right to life of mother and unborn baby, while X confirms the intentional taking of unborn life as a serious crime.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating to be honest. How many cases of intentional taking of unborn life have occurred on Irish soil since X was legislated for?

I don't know of one case.

desertcircus

Referenda in Ireland that split opinion between a basically conservative position and a basically liberal one have historically tended to be fairly tight. After Saturday, though, the assumption that another abortion referendum would be a 51-49 affair is dead in the water. The numbers voting No to gay marriage were almost identical to the numbers who voted No to divorce, but population growth in the intervening two decades fell almost entirely on the liberal side of the spectrum. Abortion and gay rights aren't issues with perfect overlap, and it's possible that the Eighth could survive a referendum, but at the moment I'd say a repeal would probably pass.

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

How many cases of intentional taking of unborn life have occurred on Irish soil since X was legislated for?

I don't know of one case.

I wasn't aware they had to put a notice in the paper.

Black Menorca

desertcircus wrote: »

Referenda in Ireland that split opinion between a basically conservative position and a basically liberal one have historically tended to be fairly tight. After Saturday, though, the assumption that another abortion referendum would be a 51-49 affair is dead in the water. The numbers voting No to gay marriage were almost identical to the numbers who voted No to divorce, but population growth in the intervening two decades fell almost entirely on the liberal side of the spectrum. Abortion and gay rights aren't issues with perfect overlap, and it's possible that the Eighth could survive a referendum, but at the moment I'd say a repeal would probably pass.

As you say, it would be hard to make a direct correlation between the Yes last week to a Yes for more liberal abortion.

At least I sincerely hope so.

There will also be a lot more support for the 8th in Public life.

Black Menorca

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I wasn't aware they had to put a notice in the paper.

Thats true of course, but there doesn't seems to be many actual cases as of yet, over a year since X was passed in the Dáil.

Zubeneschamali

Black Menorca wrote: »

Thats true of course, but there doesn't seems to be many actual cases as of yet, over a year since X was passed in the Dáil.

How do you know?

seamus

desertcircus wrote: »

Referenda in Ireland that split opinion between a basically conservative position and a basically liberal one have historically tended to be fairly tight. After Saturday, though, the assumption that another abortion referendum would be a 51-49 affair is dead in the water. The numbers voting No to gay marriage were almost identical to the numbers who voted No to divorce, but population growth in the intervening two decades fell almost entirely on the liberal side of the spectrum. Abortion and gay rights aren't issues with perfect overlap, and it's possible that the Eighth could survive a referendum, but at the moment I'd say a repeal would probably pass.

I'm not sure. I know plenty of people who would have fought tooth and nail campaigning for SSM who would be a strong "No" on anything abortion related.

It's a very complicated issue, legally and socially, so all the "No" side would have to do is claim that repealing the eighth will instantly lead to one-hour abortion clinics and mass graves of dead babies, and a lot of people won't look past the issues to see why the 8th is such an horrendous amendment.

Hell, there's already one poster in this thread banging on about abortion on demand. Imagine that, but times 10,000.

Penny Tration

Black Menorca wrote: »

In fairness, lets be honest on both sides here. Abortion is available widely in the UK.

It's available widely, yeah.

It's not available on demand.

If it were, it would be unrestricted.

You cannot get an abortion 'on demand' after 24 weeks.

So nope, not available on demand.

Widely available, yes.

Zubeneschamali

desertcircus wrote: »

Rit's possible that the Eighth could survive a referendum, but at the moment I'd say a repeal would probably pass.

No chance. Young voters n general saw no reason why ssm should not be allowed. This is not at all true of abortion.

At one point in this campaign, someone stuck a pro-SSM image up instead of Youth Defence's homepage, and they basically said they didn't care - they had no horse in this one. Very different from their attitude to abortion.

volchitsa

Black Menorca wrote: »

The 8th enshrines the equal right to life of mother and unborn baby, while X confirms the intentional taking of unborn life as a serious crime.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating to be honest. How many cases of intentional taking of unborn life have occurred on Irish soil since X was legislated for?

I don't know of one case.

But if you think what matters is preventing Irish babies being aborted, what does it matter where that happens?

While there's a legal right to travel for an abortion, you can't fool anyone that it isn't happening. So you only care about maintaining the fiction, and don't give a hoot about the reality of it.

volchitsa

Black Menorca wrote: »

Thats true of course, but there doesn't seems to be many actual cases as of yet, over a year since X was passed in the Dáil.

The first report isn't due until the end of June. We'll have a better idea then.

Anyway, if you think abortion is murder, what difference does it make where Irish women have these abortions?

If I killed you on holiday in the UK, you'd still be dead, no?

desertcircus

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure. I know plenty of people who would have fought tooth and nail campaigning for SSM who would be a strong "No" on anything abortion related.

It's a very complicated issue, legally and socially, so all the "No" side would have to do is claim that repealing the eighth will instantly lead to one-hour abortion clinics and mass graves of dead babies, and a lot of people won't look past the issues to see why the 8th is such an horrendous amendment.

Hell, there's already one poster in this thread banging on about abortion on demand. Imagine that, but times 10,000.

I know abortion would be a lot more contentious, but gay marriage passed by 300,000 votes. If we treat "liberalising marriage law" as a rough category to cover divorce and gay marriage, then the liberal side of the argument captured pretty much 100% of population growth over the past twenty years - I doubt that attitudes to abortion have followed the same trajectory, but we'd need a more or less 50/50 split in attitudes to abortion among those 300,000 extra marriage-liberal voters for a repeal of the 8th to go down to the wire. I'd suspect that the anti-abortion campaign, if it is already gearing up, is operating on the assumption that it's already at a significant disadvantage. Gay rights and abortion don't map perfectly, but I'd bet good money that Saturday's Yes voters are more likely than Saturday's No voters to lean pro-choice.

Black Menorca

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

How do you know?

There is no evidence of any, for starters.

Black Menorca

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure. I know plenty of people who would have fought tooth and nail campaigning for SSM who would be a strong "No" on anything abortion related.

It's a very complicated issue, legally and socially, so all the "No" side would have to do is claim that repealing the eighth will instantly lead to one-hour abortion clinics and mass graves of dead babies, and a lot of people won't look past the issues to see why the 8th is such an horrendous amendment.

Hell, there's already one poster in this thread banging on about abortion on demand. Imagine that, but times 10,000.

This is very true. A lot of the Renua crew kept schtum on SSM but will be all out against abortion.

A new set of alliances will be set up with people from all parties and walks of life coming down on either side.

Black Menorca

volchitsa wrote: »

But if you think what matters is preventing Irish babies being aborted, what does it matter where that happens?

While there's a legal right to travel for an abortion, you can't fool anyone that it isn't happening. So you only care about maintaining the fiction, and don't give a hoot about the reality of it.

All we can do is legislate for our own nation, no one else's.

Ireland is abortion free and a huge cohort of the population, I suspect, will vote against any attempt to repeal the 8th if and when it is threatened.

Black Menorca

volchitsa wrote: »

The first report isn't due until the end of June. We'll have a better idea then.

Anyway, if you think abortion is murder, what difference does it make where Irish women have these abortions?

If I killed you on holiday in the UK, you'd still be dead, no?

I've never used that word.

volchitsa

Black Menorca wrote: »

I've never used that word.

So what's your problem with termination of pregnancy then?

Black Menorca

volchitsa wrote: »

So what's your problem with termination of pregnancy then?

I have no problem with pregnancy terminations where the intention of said termination is to save the mother from a direct physical threat to her life.

I do have a problem with intentional taking of unborn life. I do not believe innocent unborn babies should be left to the evils of an abortionist's chamber.

fits

Black Menorca wrote: »

I do not believe innocent unborn babies should be left to the evils of an abortionist's chamber.

Seriously.. go easy on the rhetoric there will you:rolleyes:

Black Menorca

fits wrote: »

Seriously.. go easy on the rhetoric there will you:rolleyes:

Marie Stopes might have clean wards, stainless steel staircases and smilie receptionists but the fundamental evil of that organisations raison d'etre should never be denied. The intentional destruction of unborn life.

fits

yeah yeah whatever. Its going on in every country in Europe except here. And it is here too only people have to fly to avail of it. Only a matter of time.

Black Menorca

fits wrote: »

yeah yeah whatever. Its going on in every country in Europe except here. And it is here too only people have to fly to avail of it. Only a matter of time.

I hope and will do all in my humble power to keep it that way, whenever the needs may arise in the coming years.

oscarBravo

Black Menorca wrote: »

I hope and will do all in my humble power to keep it that way, whenever the needs may arise in the coming years.

I find that a reprehensible attitude, for one simple reason: if a woman really wants an abortion, she will find a way to procure one.

If she has the means, she will travel to another country. This will probably take her out of her support group of family and friends and force her to face a difficult situation alone.

If she can't travel, she may purchase abortifacient drugs online. This means she is breaking the law, and self-medicating without competent supervision.

In the worst case, she may do herself considerable harm by attempting to cause an abortion, or by entrusting her health to an unlicensed practitioner.

Your philosophy is that it doesn't matter if she travels abroad for an abortion; it doesn't matter if she has to break the law and/or endanger her health: the only thing that matters to you is that the abortion she's going to have by whatever means necessary is not available in safe, legal circumstances in this country.

If your attitude actually helped to prevent abortions, it might have some merit. It doesn't, and it doesn't.

inocybe

Black Menorca wrote: »

All we can do is legislate for our own nation, no one else's.

Ireland is abortion free and a huge cohort of the population, I suspect, will vote against any attempt to repeal the 8th if and when it is threatened.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Ireland is most certainly not abortion free. Denying the reality of the need for a safe service won't make it go away.

Black Menorca

oscarBravo wrote: »

I find that a reprehensible attitude, for one simple reason: if a woman really wants an abortion, she will find a way to procure one.

If she has the means, she will travel to another country. This will probably take her out of her support group of family and friends and force her to face a difficult situation alone.

If she can't travel, she may purchase abortifacient drugs online. This means she is breaking the law, and self-medicating without competent supervision.

In the worst case, she may do herself considerable harm by attempting to cause an abortion, or by entrusting her health to an unlicensed practitioner.

Your philosophy is that it doesn't matter if she travels abroad for an abortion; it doesn't matter if she has to break the law and/or endanger her health: the only thing that matters to you is that the abortion she's going to have by whatever means necessary is not available in safe, legal circumstances in this country.

If your attitude actually helped to prevent abortions, it might have some merit. It doesn't, and it doesn't.

All we can do as a country is set a standard f decency.

Protecting unborn life while at the same time providing for the needs (financial and moral) for expectant mothers should be that standard, in my view.

Killing unborn babies is a clear sign society has failed. thankfully, Ireland has yet to admit such defeat. Succumbing to the abortion industry and those who advocate for it in Liberal circles will have the opportunity to put their case when the time comes. I have confidence the Irish people will defend mother and unborn baby, but we'll see when and if the time comes.