ESB to create new fibre powered ISP

bealtine · 20-03-2014 2:05pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that, most such connected devices use incredibly small amounts of data. I know because I'm very much into this area.

That's very true but I can still foresee times when all the devices are all going at "full speed" instead of infrequent bursty traffic like now, so it does very much depend on usage patterns. I was very much into this kind of thing at one point too...

I've seen households with lots of devices saturate their connection especially when IPTV was in the mix.

I really don't see any need in the short to medium term for giagbit FTTH.

I'm convinced that getting a minimum of 30mb/s quality, wired broadband to every home in Ireland is a much more important priority.

Again true 30Mb/s into every home is a laudable goal for now but I feel the connections will quickly become saturated and the demands for more bandwidth will become shriller and shriller, so while VDSL is a great stopgap measure it should not be seen as an end in itself and the solution, to my mind, is FTTH/FTTB...

BulliteShot · 20-03-2014 2:11pm

G.fast is crap! If I lived 100m from the ISP I would route my own ethernet cable or even fibre. Jeez.

According to a 2012 joint ITU/IEEE presentation “G.Fast for FTTdp”, the bandwidth achieved will be approximately:
500Mbps @ 100m
200Mbps @ 200m
150Mbps @ 250m

Source: https://neil-fairbrother.squarespace.com/blog/2013/7/1/gfast-a-high-speed-cul-de-sac

ED E · 20-03-2014 2:25pm

EDIT: Few new posts submitted while I was reading and replying to the thread

Regarding UPC and the ESB I suspect thats not how they do things. Liberty Global have the same infrastructure and CPE everywhere, probably the same backend too. Their service teams are based around a Cable system and they control everything from home to peering point. Forking over half the profits to the ESB wouldnt go well with shareholders, I suspect.

If the ESB are to deliver a TV product it'll be interesting to see what they do. The licensing from the different networks is a big job but whether UPC or Eircom would re-sell their IPTV service is unknown.

BK your setup works, but only when everyone behaves/QoS manages things. With ISP grade CPE all it takes is for one user to open steam and start a game download to pretty much starve the rest of the users on 20 or 30Mb connection. When you get to 50 this is harder, but there still can be issues. Especially on ADSL connections where a small amount of upload can nuke the entire connection.

The UPC standard of 120Mb should cover 95%+ of households for a few years to come at least. Shorter VDSL lines will do the same, but longer ones will have a limited lifetime until they feel like stone age tech as 2Mb ADSL lines do now.While I agree that decent speeds to most homes is more important than superfast to few, I think we run the risk of house that upgraded now to an "ok" product get skipped in the next phase because they've just been upgraded. Thats the situation we were in for years, on the DSL trials so first 50 or 100 premises to get it in the country, got up to 4.5Mb with ADSL and never any higher until UPC fitted the area almost 2 years ago. We dropped the line then so I cant be sure if our old cab is enabled, but even if it was the cabling is so poor it'd all need to be replaced. UPC were slow to upgrade the area due to "decent" BB already being in place, we'd have almost been better off with a PSTN only exchange as we'd likely have got cable sooner.

If a town gets VDSL now and most homes reach 30/40Mb, UPC will likely skip it for an area with no VDSL. ESB may do the same. So then a decade from now when we're on 1Gb DOCSIS 3.1, they're still on 30 or 40Mb.

EDIT2: Nope, our cab still isnt enabled for VDSL ^^

Danny Boy · 20-03-2014 2:44pm

BulliteShot wrote: »

G.fast is crap! If I lived 100m from the ISP I would route my own ethernet cable or even fibre. Jeez.

Source: https://neil-fairbrother.squarespace.com/blog/2013/7/1/gfast-a-high-speed-cul-de-sac

http://www.fiercetelecom.com/story/teliasonera-huawei-conduct-gfast-trial-finland/2014-02-19

According to this it's 1Gig at 250metres.

bk · 20-03-2014 2:50pm

ED E wrote: »

Regarding UPC and the ESB I suspect thats not how they do things. Liberty Global have the same infrastructure and CPE everywhere, probably the same backend too. Their service teams are based around a Cable system and they control everything from home to peering point. Forking over half the profits to the ESB wouldnt go well with shareholders, I suspect.

UPC resell VDSL in Austria:

http://www.telecompaper.com/news/upc-austria-to-offer-vdsl-outside-footprint--843904

They do similar in other countries too. So there certainly is precedence for them doing this.

ED E wrote: »

If the ESB are to deliver a TV product it'll be interesting to see what they do. The licensing from the different networks is a big job but whether UPC or Eircom would re-sell their IPTV service is unknown.

Oh, Eircom or UPC won't sell them theirs. But no reason the ESB or Vodafone couldn't build their own service. I expect Vodafone will build a service that will operate over either Eircom eFibre or ESB fibre. IPTV systems aren't really that difficult to build, many off the shelf IPTV systems are available from a couple of different STB and infrastructure companies. Eircoms eVision service isn't unique at all, it is an off the shelf service. The only tricky aspect is negotiating with the various content owners. This is the one area UPC partnering with the ESB would have a big advantage, they already have these agreements in place.

ED E wrote: »

BK your setup works, but only when everyone behaves/QoS manages things. With ISP grade CPE all it takes is for one user to open steam and start a game download to pretty much starve the rest of the users on 20 or 30Mb connection. When you get to 50 this is harder, but there still can be issues. Especially on ADSL connections where a small amount of upload can nuke the entire connection.

But then that is an issue of the CPE gear, not the WAN speed. Getting companies to supply decent CPE's or even to allow people to bring their own would solve this issue.

It is also the reason I think there is little benefit or need for 1Gb/s Fibre. Most people use wifi, which in the best case scenario max out at 80mb/s. Even the latest, high end (expensive) 802.11ac routers seem to max out at 250mb/s in the real world. So given all that, what is the point of 1Gb/s FTTH when most people won't be even able to use it?

ED E wrote: »

If a town gets VDSL now and most homes reach 30/40Mb, UPC will likely skip it for an area with no VDSL. ESB may do the same. So then a decade from now when we're on 1Gb DOCSIS 3.1, they're still on 30 or 40Mb.

Well UPC don't seem to be expanding at all outside doing infill of their existing footprint, so I think that is irrelevant.

ESB have already said that they will be specifically targeting Eircom VDSL areas, not serviced by UPC.

Having two major networks competing in every urban and semi-urban area will drive competition. Trust me, Eircom would not be rolling out FTTC/VDSL if it wasn't for the competition from UPC and potentially ESB.

Groundsource · 20-03-2014 2:53pm

bk wrote: »

It is already being discussed over on the Eircom Fibre thread, but I think this is huge news, the biggest news in the Irish Broadband market since UPC came to Ireland and thus deserves it's own thread.

It looks like the ESB are looking to create a new ISP in a joint venture where they will run their own fibre optic cable to the home using the ESB's overhead electrical poles and ducts:

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP384475

This is massive news as it brings another very large and wealthy player to the market, but most importantly brings a third completely independent network to the market and it looks like they will be using the best and fastest technology available and have an advantage of using the ESB's existing infrastructure.

If done right, this could really shake up the Irish broadband market.

From the tender docs they say they plan on targeting urban and semi-urban areas outside Dublin. This sounds like they want to target non-rural areas not already serviced by UPC.

This makes a lot of sense, while Eircom might be targeting the same areas with their new VDSL2+ products, ESB's fibre to the building products would be able to offer speeds and prices that would easily blow Eircom away. However it would be much harder for them to compete with UPC, due to UPC's already high speeds.

Interestingly the ESB won't actually be selling broadband directly to customers, instead they will act as wholesalers and other ISP's can then buy capacity on the network to sell to customers.

I can certainly see BT (and thus Vodafone and Sky who use BT's network) signing up for this.

Interestingly UPC could also sign up to use it, to offer broadband and IPTV in areas they currently don't service.

Eircom would be the big losers with this news. However eventually they could also use this network, if they still exist!!

Very interesting times ahead

What a load of horse ****e. Broadband in IE is none existance outside of cities. No company not even ESB are remotely interested in broadband for the wider community. If Eircom could not do it then it won't be done. Please delete this thread, load of rubbish.

bk · 20-03-2014 3:00pm

G.Fast only makes sense when done in combination with FTTdp (fiber to the distribution point).

The distribution point is usually the last step before your home, usually a telephone pole or underground duct that typically serve 20 to 30 homes at less then 200 meters.

So doing this is really almost doing FTTH. It would basically mean running fibre from the local FTTC cab along every telephone pole and duct to get very close to peoples homes.

So 1Gb/s should certainly be possible with this technology for most people.

Why use this over FTTH? Well because it saves the cost and disturbance of actually going right into peoples home and drilling into walls etc.

I expect this will happen at a much later stage, when Eircom has finished with the VDSL2/FTTC rollout and are facing competition from ESB Fibre. Eircom are likely to use a mix of FTTH and G.Fast/FTTdp depending on the difficulty of each install.

ED E · 20-03-2014 3:03pm

Whats the story with power for gFast nodes? Where its on a pole that should be simple enough, but what when its all UG wiring?

tv221 · 20-03-2014 3:04pm

When was the last time UPC expanded their network. Living in Clare I've not seen them expand on the existing chorus network. have they undertaken anything other than upgrades in most areas?

bk · 20-03-2014 3:04pm

Groundsource wrote: »

What a load of horse ****e. Broadband in IE is none existance outside of cities. No company not even ESB are remotely interested in broadband for the wider community. If Eircom could not do it then it won't be done. Please delete this thread, load of rubbish.

Actually you will find that Eircom have already installed VDSL in many small rural towns and villages and plan to do many more over the next year.

MOD: No back seat modding, that is against the rules of boards.ie, you've been warned.

ED E · 20-03-2014 3:05pm

bk wrote: »

Well UPC don't seem to be expanding at all outside doing infill of their existing footprint, so I think that is irrelevant.

ESB have already said that they will be specifically targeting Eircom VDSL areas, not serviced by UPC.

Having two major networks competing in every urban and semi-urban area will drive competition. Trust me, Eircom would not be rolling out FTTC/VDSL if it wasn't for the competition from UPC and potentially ESB.

Havent kept tabs on where they were rolling out since we got it ourselves.

And too true, they'd be more than happy to stick with the status quo if they were allowed.

Groundsource · 20-03-2014 3:06pm

bk wrote: »

Actually you will find that Eircom have already installed VDSL in many small rural towns and villages and plan to do many more over the next year.

MOD: No back seat modding, that is against the rules of boards.ie, you've been warned.

Whatever.

bk · 20-03-2014 3:09pm

ED E wrote: »

Whats the story with power for gFast nodes? Where its on a pole that should be simple enough, but what when its all UG wiring?

It is actually really clever, it is actually powered by the CPE in peoples homes!!

The gear in peoples homes sends small amounts of power back over the copper cable to power the G.Fast node. This is one of the big advantages of this technology.

tv221 wrote: »

When was the last time UPC expanded their network. Living in Clare I've not seen them expand on the existing chorus network. have they undertaken anything other than upgrades in most areas?

They haven't expanded at all really. They have upgraded almost their entire existing network (fibre to nodes and all new coax cable) and they have also done some infill (apartment buildings, new estates) in areas already serviced by UPC.

Cheerful Spring · 20-03-2014 3:09pm

Groundsource wrote: »

What a load of horse ****e. Broadband in IE is none existance outside of cities. No company not even ESB are remotely interested in broadband for the wider community. If Eircom could not do it then it won't be done. Please delete this thread, load of rubbish.

What? Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Dublin, and Cork (cities) Eircom has already expanded outside of our cities ( to rural towns) Villages are next work probably start early 2015

http://www.eircom.net/efibreinfo/map/

Danny Boy · 20-03-2014 3:11pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

What? Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Dublin, and Cork (cities) Eircom has already expanded outside of our cities ( to rural towns) Villages are next work probably start early 2015

http://www.eircom.net/efibreinfo/map/

http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/Our_Network/

The NGA map above shows where they are going

AlmightyCushion · 20-03-2014 3:15pm

Groundsource wrote: »

What a load of horse ****e. Broadband in IE is none existance outside of cities. No company not even ESB are remotely interested in broadband for the wider community. If Eircom could not do it then it won't be done. Please delete this thread, load of rubbish.

200Mb UPC is available in Sligo as is Eircom e-fibre. E-fibre is available in Letterkenny as well as many other towns.

Groundsource · 20-03-2014 3:21pm

YAWN.

red_bairn · 20-03-2014 3:21pm

Groundsource wrote: »

What a load of horse ****e. Broadband in IE is none existance outside of cities. No company not even ESB are remotely interested in broadband for the wider community. If Eircom could not do it then it won't be done. Please delete this thread, load of rubbish.

Greystones town = 17,080
+Delgany=4,777
+Kilcoole=4,049
+Newcastle=951
+Newtownmountkennedy=2410

:rolleyes:

ED E · 20-03-2014 3:27pm

bk wrote: »

It is actually really clever, it is actually powered by the CPE in peoples homes!!

The gear in peoples homes sends small amounts of power back over the copper cable to power the G.Fast node. This is one of the big advantages of this technology.

Thats actually a really clever way of doing things. Does that require a minimum uptake though? As in you have 5 homes on DP powering the fibre terminator and for whatever reason 4 of them become vacant, move to UPC or whatever, does the terminator then shutdown on the last customer?

KIERAN1 · 20-03-2014 3:29pm

Danny Boy wrote: »

http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/Our_Network/

The NGA map above shows where they are going

True. I live in a village about 10 miles outside of Limerick city. I was talking to an Eircom rep last December 2013. He said i might get fibre before the end of 2014, but he said he'll know more at the end of June, to get back to him then. He said a new list of exchanges to be done should be announced then by Eircom. Realistically i expect Eircom to start doing villages very early 2015, hopefully winter 2014 if all goes ok?

This cheerful Spring by the way, that's my girlfriend account, i use it sometimes.

KIERAN1 · 20-03-2014 3:33pm

Groundsource wrote: »

YAWN.

Stop being a child. People here have provided evidence to you, leave if you're going to be an idiot.

bk · 20-03-2014 3:36pm

ED E wrote: »

Thats actually a really clever way of doing things. Does that require a minimum uptake though? As in you have 5 homes on DP powering the fibre terminator and for whatever reason 4 of them become vacant, move to UPC or whatever, does the terminator then shutdown on the last customer?

Very good question and I'm not 100% sure.

But from reading about it, I believe the nodes use less then 10w and I believe it just requires one CPE to operate.

ctlsleh · 24-03-2014 12:38pm

First of all G.FAST isnt a ratified standard yet and while we talk about 1G, its really only 500Mb in each direction, and its going to be a while before the release of generally released silicon which will allow this to be a commercially viable solution. Secondly, if you are going to invest in fiber to within 100m of everyone's home, and then invest in new technology on top of that, you may as well invest in fiber all the way to the home/building and at least that way the technology you deploy can be in-situ for years and years to come and is more than capable of provbiding 1G to the home today just like Google fiber and other large operators are doing in the US.
I accept that its a big step and a big investment to do ftth, but its a once off investment vs the intermediary investment steps of VDSL and G.Fast where you have to deploy new technology twice vs. a once off fiber build-out which once in place will proivde enough bandwidth capacity for the next 50 years + vs copper which wil always be limited. i think the current view on fiber is up to 66Tb/sec capacity.
I think the ESB have the right idea, if they can deploy fiber over the existing ESB network which is already going to everyones home, then they will be on a winner......! there are lots of other utility companies doing this around the world, so its not a first, its already proven.

Danny Boy · 24-03-2014 1:39pm

ctlsleh wrote: »

First of all G.FAST isnt a ratified standard yet and while we talk about 1G, its really only 500Mb in each direction, and its going to be a while before the release of generally released silicon which will allow this to be a commercially viable solution. Secondly, if you are going to invest in fiber to within 100m of everyone's home, and then invest in new technology on top of that, you may as well invest in fiber all the way to the home/building and at least that way the technology you deploy can be in-situ for years and years to come and is more than capable of provbiding 1G to the home today just like Google fiber and other large operators are doing in the US.
I accept that its a big step and a big investment to do ftth, but its a once off investment vs the intermediary investment steps of VDSL and G.Fast where you have to deploy new technology twice vs. a once off fiber build-out which once in place will proivde enough bandwidth capacity for the next 50 years + vs copper which wil always be limited. i think the current view on fiber is up to 66Tb/sec capacity.
I think the ESB have the right idea, if they can deploy fiber over the existing ESB network which is already going to everyones home, then they will be on a winner......! there are lots of other utility companies doing this around the world, so its not a first, its already proven.

Can you show some examples of these companies?

SpaceTime · 24-03-2014 1:57pm

I'd say the most likely next step for eircom will probably be VDSL2 (vectored) from smaller fibre nodes closer to the end user for higher speeds.

i.e. "Deep Fibre"

They'll keep going with that until they eventually start to push out FTTH.

red_bairn · 24-03-2014 2:29pm

Danny Boy wrote: »

Can you show some examples of these companies?

Korea Telecom provide a HD IPTV service called Qook TV and 100/100 FTTp or FTTH. You can get added bundles with a telephone service.

I paid 30 dollars a month for TV, net, water charge and maintenance for apartment.

ED E · 24-03-2014 2:41pm

ctlsleh wrote: »

First of all G.FAST isnt a ratified standard yet and while we talk about 1G, its really only 500Mb in each direction, and its going to be a while before the release of generally released silicon which will allow this to be a commercially viable solution. Secondly, if you are going to invest in fiber to within 100m of everyone's home, and then invest in new technology on top of that, you may as well invest in fiber all the way to the home/building and at least that way the technology you deploy can be in-situ for years and years to come and is more than capable of provbiding 1G to the home today just like Google fiber and other large operators are doing in the US.
I accept that its a big step and a big investment to do ftth, but its a once off investment vs the intermediary investment steps of VDSL and G.Fast where you have to deploy new technology twice vs. a once off fiber build-out which once in place will proivde enough bandwidth capacity for the next 50 years + vs copper which wil always be limited. i think the current view on fiber is up to 66Tb/sec capacity.
I think the ESB have the right idea, if they can deploy fiber over the existing ESB network which is already going to everyones home, then they will be on a winner......! there are lots of other utility companies doing this around the world, so its not a first, its already proven.

IIRC neither 802.11N or 802.11AC were ratified when they first hit production silicone. Ratification doesnt stop the fabs getting going early.

While I agree with you to a point, I think it'll need to be a mix of gFast and FTTH for a while. Take apartment block for instance, mostly prewired with cat5/6 down to the basement. Running FTTH/P there is going to be a hell of a lot of work. gFast from the basement though, that'd be very simple.
Another case would be homeowners who dont want a visible cable. This was an issue for us when UPC were upgrading as a neighbor downright refused to allow a cable over his property for two years. When the insitue cabling is underground and often pretty impossible to re run without digging up the duct it makes sense to provide gFast and not have to get permission from homeowners to run drop cables. Also means no civils as it can be attached to existing street furniture.

Dean. · 18-05-2015 9:17pm

I for one hope eircom have nothing to do with this operation as I think they are an absolute disgrace of a business. Been with them now since August because I was guaranteed fiber by the end of December 14' and still no sign of it. Yet...my neighbor (whose house is actually attached to mine is getting 60-80Mbps whilst I'm getting 12-15Mbps. All I'm getting from them is 'just because one house has it in your area doesn't mean they're all getting it'. Well, they are...Me and one other person in my small 25 house estate are the ONLY ones who DON'T have a fiber line.

I think they're the laziest group of people I've ever come across in my life.

Shower of W*nker*

murphaph · 18-05-2015 10:20pm

Dean. wrote: »

I for one hope eircom have nothing to do with this operation as I think they are an absolute disgrace of a business. Been with them now since August because I was guaranteed fiber by the end of December 14' and still no sign of it. Yet...my neighbor (whose house is actually attached to mine is getting 60-80Mbps whilst I'm getting 12-15Mbps. All I'm getting from them is 'just because one house has it in your area doesn't mean they're all getting it'. Well, they are...Me and one other person in my small 25 house estate are the ONLY ones who DON'T have a fiber line.

I think they're the laziest group of people I've ever come across in my life.

Shower of W*nker*

....the fact they've installed around five thousand VDSL cabinets in a little over 2 years does not really support your argument.

Dean. · 18-05-2015 10:40pm

murphaph wrote:

....the fact they've installed around five thousand VDSL cabinets in a little over 2 years does not really support your argument.

Sure what's the point in installing thousands of cabinets if they're going to be left there unused like the one up here was for months ?

ESB to create new fibre powered ISP

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