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State stops funding for catholic marriage courses

2

Comments

  • #32
    SeaFields
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,551 ✭✭✭SeaFields


    omega666 wrote: »
    Regarding the pre-marriage course. People seem to be clueless over what they are about. It's run by Lay people who talk about their own marriage and go through stuff like how to help make a marriage work,how to deal with anger and conflict in the marriage, family planning, how to prepare for children, how to prepare for your wedding day.

    It's not some priest preaching to a room full of people over how to be a good catholic!

    Just to add to this, on my one a couple of years back we had a talk from a solicitor on property matters, wills, legal aspects to marriage, etc and an open floor of questions afterwards (and a word in private if we wished.) There was nurse talking about family planning and gave a decent talk on options when a couple are finding getting pregnant difficult. And a counselor speaking about conflict management and talking about various things that can put a strain on even the most solid of relationships.

    To be honest, religious or not, it was a day well spent.


  • #33
    I swindled the NSA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭I swindled the NSA


    haveringchick wrote: »
    So uou want yo bring in a British organisation to counsel Irish married couples

    Why not ?
    haveringchick wrote: »
    you want to deny any couples who would like pre-marriage counselling and

    There is a difference between not having the taxpayer fund something and making it illegal. I don't want to deny couples anything.
    haveringchick wrote: »
    you don't think that a couple standing. In front of their closest friends and family solemnly vowing to accept any children that God gives them and raise those children according to the rules of the Catholic church are pure hypocrites unless they both believe it and intend to practice it?

    Yup they are hypocrites.

    However it is possible for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic is it not ?


  • #34
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    I swindled the NSA wrote: »
    Why not ?



    There is a difference between not having the taxpayer fund something and making it illegal. I don't want to deny couples anything.



    Yup they are hypocrites.

    However it is possible for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic is it not ?

    Yes ite possible. As long as the non Catholic agrees to forgo non-natural family planning and agrees that the children be raised as Catholics.
    What links can you post pointing out the unsatisfactory service Accord supply that you feel a foreign company should be brought in?


  • #35
    I swindled the NSA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭I swindled the NSA


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Yes ite possible. As long as the non Catholic agrees to forgo non-natural family planning and agrees that the resultant children be raised as Catholics.?
    FYP !

    What if the non-Catholic already has kids -are they to be forcibly converted ?
    haveringchick wrote: »
    What links can you post pointing out the unsatisfactory service Accord supply that you feel a foreign company should be brought in?

    http://blather.net/store/fortean/beyond_belief_by_liam_fay.html has quite a good chapter on the subject.


  • #36
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,059 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Yes ite possible. As long as the non Catholic agrees to forgo non-natural family planning
    That doesn't even happen when both partners are (hypocritical) Catholics.


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  • #37
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    I swindled the NSA wrote: »
    FYP !

    What if the non-Catholic already has kids -are they to be forcibly converted ?



    http://blather.net/store/fortean/beyond_belief_by_liam_fay.html has quite a good chapter on the subject.

    An opinion piece by Liam Fay? Are there statistics therein regarding the success/failure rate of Accord?
    The couple on the alter are solemnly vowing in front of all the witnesses to bring up any children of the marriage in the Catholic faith.
    Why did you feel you had to fix my post? In what way did uou think it needed correcting?


  • #38
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I think pre marriage courses are a great idea but it should be secular and open to all.


  • #39
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Yes ite possible. As long as the non Catholic agrees to forgo non-natural family planning and agrees that the children be raised as Catholics............

    and right there in the middle is where you enquire about abortion if things are a little quiet


  • #40
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think pre marriage courses are a great idea but it should be secular and open to all.

    You will agree though that the RCC are entitled to run courses by Catholics exclusively for Catholics.
    There's nothing yo stop any other organization from applying for funding to set up a non-denominational pre marriage course.


  • #41
    I swindled the NSA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭I swindled the NSA


    haveringchick wrote: »
    An opinion piece by Liam Fay?
    A account of a pre-marriage course which he attended with an accomplice posing as an engaged couple.
    haveringchick wrote: »
    Why did you feel you had to fix my post? In what way did you think it needed correcting?
    Theres a name for couples who forgo non-natural family planning theyre called Parents.
    haveringchick wrote: »
    You will agree though that the RCC are entitled to run courses by Catholics exclusively for Catholics.
    They can run any courses they like.

    Theyre not entitled to have the rest of us pay for it.


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  • #42
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    haveringchick wrote: »
    You will agree though that the RCC are entitled to run courses by Catholics exclusively for Catholics.
    There's nothing yo stop any other organization from applying for funding to set up a non-denominational pre marriage course.

    Of course but according to posters the courses aren't particularly Catholic, it's a great service but it's a shame it's only open to engaged Catholics.


  • #43
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Religion is a service ?

    Yes. 13.5% vat thanks.


  • #44
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    gctest50 wrote: »
    and right there in the middle is where you enquire about abortion if things are a little quiet

    Why would you be enquiring about abortion at a Catholic pre marriage course? Nobody forced you to go to the course. It's not a requirement for a civil marriage. You chose to opt for a wedding in a Catholic church. It is a requirement for a Catholic marriage.
    Why wwould anyone be a total prick and bring up abortion? How would that he a ppositive contribution?


  • #45
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    I swindled the NSA wrote: »
    A account of a pre-marriage course which he attended with an accomplice posing as an engaged couple.


    Theres a name for couples who forgo non-natural family planning theyre called Parents.


    They can run any courses they like.

    Theyre not entitled to have the rest of us pay for it.

    They apply for funding from the government and they get it. It's hardly demanding money with menances.Theres nothing to stop any other organization doing the same.


  • #46
    Cianmcliam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Cianmcliam


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think pre marriage courses are a great idea but it should be secular and open to all.

    The one we did was with Accord and it was at least 95% secular, run by a married couple who had had a rocky patch in their own marriage. A priest came in just before it finished and spoke a bit about what happens in the church on the day. No preaching and no moralising that sticks out from what I remember.

    It was actually very good. Covered a lot of stuff already mentioned as well as things newlyweds rarely think about, like how they would manage if one or more of their parents suddenly needed longterm 24hr assistance, possibly in their home.


  • #47
    I swindled the NSA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭I swindled the NSA


    haveringchick wrote: »
    They apply for funding from the government and they get it. It's hardly demanding money with menances.
    They shouldn't.
    haveringchick wrote: »
    Theres nothing to stop any other organization doing the same.
    You seem to have an issue with foreign and specifically British organisations doing so though ?


  • #48
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    I swindled the NSA wrote: »
    A account of a pre-marriage course which he attended with an accomplice posing as an engaged couple.


    Theres a name for couples who forgo non-natural family planning theyre called Parents.


    They can run any courses they like.

    Theyre not entitled to have the rest of us pay for it.

    So yes sn opinion piece by Liam Fay based on his experience of an Accord course.
    In what way is this proof that Accord doesn't work, should be closed down and Relate brought in instead?


  • #49
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    I swindled the NSA wrote: »
    They shouldn't.


    You seem to have an issue with foreign and specifically British organisations doing so though ?

    Why shouldn't they get the funding?
    What services can Relate bring that Accord don't provide?
    If Catholic couples looking to get married snd wanting advice or Catholic married couples who need advice don't have Accord where will they go to get counselling that fits in with their beliefs?


  • #50
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I'd be more concerned with any funding they get for counselling relationships in crisis. A couple in crisis need unbiased advice, not advice with an agenda.


  • #51
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Why shouldn't they get the funding?
    What services can Relate bring that Accord don't provide?

    Unbiased, non judgemental, trained counselling


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  • #52
    I swindled the NSA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭I swindled the NSA


    haveringchick wrote: »
    In what way is this proof that Accord doesn't work, should be closed down and Relate brought in instead?

    Get the book read the chapter and come back to me. You asked for a link/source and I gave you one. If the RCC want to run members-only courses on flower-arranging bully for them but why should they get a red cent off the rest of us ?
    haveringchick wrote: »
    If Catholic couples looking to get married snd wanting advice or Catholic married couples who need advice don't have Accord where will they go to get counselling that fits in with their beliefs?
    Nobody here has suggested proscribing accord or outlawing their courses.


  • #53
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'd be more concerned with any funding they get for counselling relationships in crisis. A couple in crisis need unbiased advice, not advice with an agenda.

    But if your going to Accord it's pretty clear that it's going to be counselling from a Catholic background.


  • #54
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Unbiased, non judgemental, trained counselling

    Are you alleging Accord counsellors are biased judgmental and untrained? Where is your evidence for these allegations?


  • #55
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    haveringchick wrote: »
    But if your going to Accord it's pretty clear that it's going to be counselling from a Catholic background.

    I come from a counselling background myself and its not best practice or ethical imho to give counselling to vulnerable people unless it's completely unbiased.


  • #56
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    I swindled the NSA wrote: »
    Get the book read the chapter and come back to me. You asked for a link/source and I gave you one. If the RCC want to run members-only courses on flower-arranging bully for them but why should they get a red cent off the rest of us ?


    Nobody here has suggested proscribing accord or outlawing their courses.

    No you didn't give any link to any evidence that Relate can supply a better service than Accord.
    You need to learn the difference between an opinion and evidence.


  • #57
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    haveringchick wrote: »
    Are you alleging Accord counsellors are biased judgmental and untrained? Where is your evidence for these allegations?

    No. I said Relate are unbiased, non judgmental and use trained counsellors.

    However it's been pointed out on this thread that accord use volunteers and as you said yourself they are coming from a catholic perspective so I would be reluctant to recommend them.


  • #58
    I swindled the NSA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭I swindled the NSA


    haveringchick wrote: »
    No you didn't give any link to any evidence that Relate can supply a better service than Accord.
    You need to learn the difference between an opinion and evidence.

    An eye-witness account by someone who has actually attended a course is evidence.


  • #59
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Just shows the Government empty rhetoric in their support of Marriage and how they use the tap monies collected in the name of the general good to punish those that disagree with them.


  • #60
    omega666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 622 ✭✭✭omega666


    I swindled the NSA wrote: »
    An eye-witness account by someone who has actually attended a course is evidence.


    Can you actually provide the evidence you keep mentioning? Not a link to buy a book on amazon :pac:


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  • #61
    I swindled the NSA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭I swindled the NSA


    omega666 wrote: »
    Can you actually provide the evidence you keep mentioning?

    Is there not a good library near you ? I could wait for it to go out of copyright and post the entire chapter up here but the mods are a bit funny about bumping zombie threads....You've asked for evidence and Ive pointed you in the right direction now the onus is on you to rebutt it.


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