State stops funding for catholic marriage courses

shane7218

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/referendum/state-stops-funding-for-catholic-marriage-courses-31218125.html#


Why was the state funding marriage courses using tax payer's money for a religious organisation :mad:

Anyone else think its about time they started paying tax as well ?

The_Valeyard

shane7218 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/referendum/state-stops-funding-for-catholic-marriage-courses-31218125.html#


Why was the state funding marriage courses using tax payer's money for a religious organisation :mad:

Anyone else think its about time they started paying tax as well ?

No. They haven't. They have only reduced it. And it's only a conincidence, it has nothing to do with the referendum.

shane7218

The_Valeyard wrote: »

No. They haven't. They have only reduced it. And it's only a conincidence, it has nothing to do with the referendum.

Yeah but my point is why were they getting funding in the first place? Its ridiculous

kneemos

It's a hundred odd quid with fifteen or twenty attending.
It more than pays for itself.
Plus the organisation is run by volunteers apparently.

There's also the issue of a Catholic based programme running a course for multiple denominations and none.

Call me Al

kneemos wrote: »

It's a hundred odd quid with fifteen or twenty attending.
It more than pays for itself.
Plus the organisation is run by volunteers apparently.

There's also the issue of a Catholic based programme running a course for multiple denominations and none.

I was just about to say exactly this.

What funding do they need from the state considering the fees they charge and the numbers who take the course, as well as the fact that those giving the courses are volunteers.
Surely renting premises isn't that expensive?
Is it advertising costs? But even then it wouldn't be that expensive.

haveringchick

shane7218 wrote: »

Yeah but my point is why were they getting funding in the first place? Its ridiculous

Who do you think should get funded taxpayers Euros for marriage guidance counselling?

shane7218

haveringchick wrote: »

Who do you think should get funded taxpayers Euros for marriage guidance counselling?

Not the Cataloic church that's for sure. Most only do it because they are forced if they want a religious wedding and have to pay for something that is run by volunteers

omega666

shane7218 wrote: »

Yeah but my point is why were they getting funding in the first place? Its ridiculous

Why is it ridiculous?
Taxpayers money goes to fund service used by taxpayers.

Generic Dreadhead

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE - 14/05/15

Happy now? it's done

shane7218

Cormac... wrote: »

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE - 14/05/15

Happy now? it's done

:rolleyes:

darkpagandeath

omega666 wrote: »

Why is it ridiculous?
Taxpayers money goes to fund service used by taxpayers.

Religion is a service ?

Lollipops23

These pre-marriage course are a cod anyway. Especially when the advice is being given by someone who lives a celibate life.

Mesrine65

Lollipops23 wrote: »

These pre-marriage course are a cod anyway. Especially when the advice is being given by someone who lives a celibate life.

Or do they?

El Weirdo

Lollipops23 wrote: »

These pre-marriage course are a cod anyway. Especially when the advice is being given by someone who lives a celibate life.

I was under the impression that it was lay people who gave the courses.

Galwayguy35

Lollipops23 wrote: »

These pre-marriage course are a cod anyway. Especially when the advice is being given by someone who lives a celibate life.

Well if you're not Catholic or don't intend to get married in a church you can rest easy, it won't affect you.

Magico Gonzalez

Is the Catholic church short of a few quid? Dont they have more money than the Irish state? Why the hell are we paying for their marriage course?

As an aside, I did the "mixed religion one",for the benefit of my OH and her family. It was fine, no big deal. Nothing controversial. Pretty sure the Catholic church should have paid for it. It was on their premises, no food was provided so the only cost should have been materials?

Pumpkinseeds

Are those courses still compulsory if you want a church wedding :eek: They are totally irrelevant to modern life. Most couples live together and manage a home and they know what the reality of marriage will be, so there is no need for anyone to put them through a course to prove that they are compatible or whatever the hell the point of the course is. If they are compulsory they shouldn't be. If they are compulsory then regardless of what the cost is the various churches insisting on them should charge the couples for them.

diomed

I heard it was funding those courses that caused the national debt.

omega666

Regarding the pre-marriage course. People seem to be clueless over what they are about. It's run by Lay people who talk about their own marriage and go through stuff like how to help make a marriage work,how to deal with anger and conflict in the marriage, family planning, how to prepare for children, how to prepare for your wedding day.

It's not some priest preaching to a room full of people over how to be a good catholic!

haveringchick

shane7218 wrote: »

Not the Cataloic church that's for sure. Most only do it because they are forced if they want a religious wedding and have to pay for something that is run by volunteers

Why on earth would anyone whose not a Catholic want to get married in a Catholic church.
Sure that person wwould just be a hypocrite.
And why do you think that the Catholic church should marry people who don't want to meet their conditions?
You do know it's not an automatic entitlement?
You can get married now in nearly every hotel. Sure whate. wrong with that?

bee06

omega666 wrote: »

Regarding the pre-marriage course. People seem to be clueless over what they are about. It's run by Lay people who talk about their own marriage and go through stuff like how to help make a marriage work,how to deal with anger and conflict in the marriage, family planning, how to prepare for children, how to prepare for your wedding day.

It's not some priest preaching to a room full of people over how to be a good catholic!

Yep, very true. The only mention of religion in my course was the guy telling us that if you don't get on with the priest for your wedding don't be afraid to switch to someone you get on with.

Joe prim

Those courses are very important, a lot of people down the country wouldn't know how to go about the bould thing without getting a few hints from the PP or his partner ( err.....I mean the curate)

I swindled the NSA

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well if you're not Catholic a taxpayer or don't intend to get married in a church you can rest easy, it won't affect you.

FYP

haveringchick

Lollipops23 wrote: »

These pre-marriage course are a cod anyway. Especially when the advice is being given by someone who lives a celibate life.

Your all wrong there.
The courses are given by married couples.
My Aunt and uncle did it for years.

haveringchick

I swindled the NSA wrote: »

FYP

Well what group do you think should get the funding to run marriage guidance and pre marriage courses?

Lollipops23

omega666 wrote: »

Why is it ridiculous?
Taxpayers money goes to fund service used by taxpayers.

haveringchick wrote: »

Your all wrong there.
The courses are given by married couples.
My Aunt and uncle did it for years.

My mate did (about 3 years ago) and it was the parish priest with a few "lay people".

Either way it's so condescending to have them "teach" about marriage. It's not as if most people getting married are kids who haven't thought the commitment through.

vickers209

Why is the state funding them when they charge €200 to do the course in Dublin with 15 couples which us €3000 per class they run

I had to do one a few weeks ago and it was a waste of my time and my money!!

I swindled the NSA

haveringchick wrote: »

Well what group do you think should get the funding to run marriage guidance ?

Relate ?

haveringchick wrote: »

and pre marriage courses?

Nobody !

haveringchick wrote: »

Why on earth would anyone whose not a Catholic want to get married in a Catholic church.

Marriages usually tend to involve two people

haveringchick

Lollipops23 wrote: »

My mate did (about 3 years ago) and it was the parish priest with a few "lay people".

Either way it's so condescending to have them "teach" about marriage. It's not as if most people getting married are kids who haven't thought the commitment through.

Well if your "mate" didn't want a Catholic wedding then why was he or she having a Catholic wedding? It's not as if they didn't have a choice.
If you want a Catholic wedding uou have to meet their requirements or go elsewhere.

haveringchick

I swindled the NSA wrote: »

Relate ?



Nobody !



Marriages usually tend to involve two people

So uou want yo bring in a British organisation to counsel Irish married couples, you want to deny any couples who would like pre-marriage counselling and you don't think that a couple standing. In front of their closest friends and family solemnly vowing to accept any children that God gives them and raise those children according to the rules of the Catholic church are pure hypocrites unless they both believe it and intend to practice it?

bjork

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

A............Most couples live together and manage a home and they know what the reality of marriage will be, so there is no need for anyone to put them through a course to prove that they are compatible ...........................

Lollipops23 wrote: »

............................. It's not as if most people getting married are kids who haven't thought the commitment through.

and that is why the divorce rate is 0. Without the pre marriage course, it would probably be 1%

SeaFields

omega666 wrote: »

Regarding the pre-marriage course. People seem to be clueless over what they are about. It's run by Lay people who talk about their own marriage and go through stuff like how to help make a marriage work,how to deal with anger and conflict in the marriage, family planning, how to prepare for children, how to prepare for your wedding day.

It's not some priest preaching to a room full of people over how to be a good catholic!

Just to add to this, on my one a couple of years back we had a talk from a solicitor on property matters, wills, legal aspects to marriage, etc and an open floor of questions afterwards (and a word in private if we wished.) There was nurse talking about family planning and gave a decent talk on options when a couple are finding getting pregnant difficult. And a counselor speaking about conflict management and talking about various things that can put a strain on even the most solid of relationships.

To be honest, religious or not, it was a day well spent.

I swindled the NSA

haveringchick wrote: »

So uou want yo bring in a British organisation to counsel Irish married couples

Why not ?

haveringchick wrote: »

you want to deny any couples who would like pre-marriage counselling and

There is a difference between not having the taxpayer fund something and making it illegal. I don't want to deny couples anything.

haveringchick wrote: »

you don't think that a couple standing. In front of their closest friends and family solemnly vowing to accept any children that God gives them and raise those children according to the rules of the Catholic church are pure hypocrites unless they both believe it and intend to practice it?

Yup they are hypocrites.

However it is possible for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic is it not ?

haveringchick

I swindled the NSA wrote: »

Why not ?



There is a difference between not having the taxpayer fund something and making it illegal. I don't want to deny couples anything.



Yup they are hypocrites.

However it is possible for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic is it not ?

Yes ite possible. As long as the non Catholic agrees to forgo non-natural family planning and agrees that the children be raised as Catholics.
What links can you post pointing out the unsatisfactory service Accord supply that you feel a foreign company should be brought in?

I swindled the NSA

haveringchick wrote: »

Yes ite possible. As long as the non Catholic agrees to forgo non-natural family planning and agrees that the resultant children be raised as Catholics.?

FYP !

What if the non-Catholic already has kids -are they to be forcibly converted ?

haveringchick wrote: »

What links can you post pointing out the unsatisfactory service Accord supply that you feel a foreign company should be brought in?

http://blather.net/store/fortean/beyond_belief_by_liam_fay.html has quite a good chapter on the subject.

osarusan

haveringchick wrote: »

Yes ite possible. As long as the non Catholic agrees to forgo non-natural family planning

That doesn't even happen when both partners are (hypocritical) Catholics.

haveringchick

I swindled the NSA wrote: »

FYP !

What if the non-Catholic already has kids -are they to be forcibly converted ?



http://blather.net/store/fortean/beyond_belief_by_liam_fay.html has quite a good chapter on the subject.

An opinion piece by Liam Fay? Are there statistics therein regarding the success/failure rate of Accord?
The couple on the alter are solemnly vowing in front of all the witnesses to bring up any children of the marriage in the Catholic faith.
Why did you feel you had to fix my post? In what way did uou think it needed correcting?

eviltwin

I think pre marriage courses are a great idea but it should be secular and open to all.

gctest50

haveringchick wrote: »

Yes ite possible. As long as the non Catholic agrees to forgo non-natural family planning and agrees that the children be raised as Catholics............

and right there in the middle is where you enquire about abortion if things are a little quiet

haveringchick

eviltwin wrote: »

I think pre marriage courses are a great idea but it should be secular and open to all.

You will agree though that the RCC are entitled to run courses by Catholics exclusively for Catholics.
There's nothing yo stop any other organization from applying for funding to set up a non-denominational pre marriage course.

I swindled the NSA

haveringchick wrote: »

An opinion piece by Liam Fay?

A account of a pre-marriage course which he attended with an accomplice posing as an engaged couple.

haveringchick wrote: »

Why did you feel you had to fix my post? In what way did you think it needed correcting?

Theres a name for couples who forgo non-natural family planning theyre called Parents.

haveringchick wrote: »

You will agree though that the RCC are entitled to run courses by Catholics exclusively for Catholics.

They can run any courses they like.

Theyre not entitled to have the rest of us pay for it.

eviltwin

haveringchick wrote: »

You will agree though that the RCC are entitled to run courses by Catholics exclusively for Catholics.
There's nothing yo stop any other organization from applying for funding to set up a non-denominational pre marriage course.

Of course but according to posters the courses aren't particularly Catholic, it's a great service but it's a shame it's only open to engaged Catholics.

bodice ripper

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Religion is a service ?

Yes. 13.5% vat thanks.

haveringchick

gctest50 wrote: »

and right there in the middle is where you enquire about abortion if things are a little quiet

Why would you be enquiring about abortion at a Catholic pre marriage course? Nobody forced you to go to the course. It's not a requirement for a civil marriage. You chose to opt for a wedding in a Catholic church. It is a requirement for a Catholic marriage.
Why wwould anyone be a total prick and bring up abortion? How would that he a ppositive contribution?

haveringchick

I swindled the NSA wrote: »

A account of a pre-marriage course which he attended with an accomplice posing as an engaged couple.


Theres a name for couples who forgo non-natural family planning theyre called Parents.


They can run any courses they like.

Theyre not entitled to have the rest of us pay for it.

They apply for funding from the government and they get it. It's hardly demanding money with menances.Theres nothing to stop any other organization doing the same.

Cianmcliam

eviltwin wrote: »

I think pre marriage courses are a great idea but it should be secular and open to all.

The one we did was with Accord and it was at least 95% secular, run by a married couple who had had a rocky patch in their own marriage. A priest came in just before it finished and spoke a bit about what happens in the church on the day. No preaching and no moralising that sticks out from what I remember.

It was actually very good. Covered a lot of stuff already mentioned as well as things newlyweds rarely think about, like how they would manage if one or more of their parents suddenly needed longterm 24hr assistance, possibly in their home.

I swindled the NSA

haveringchick wrote: »

They apply for funding from the government and they get it. It's hardly demanding money with menances.

They shouldn't.

haveringchick wrote: »

Theres nothing to stop any other organization doing the same.

You seem to have an issue with foreign and specifically British organisations doing so though ?

haveringchick

I swindled the NSA wrote: »

A account of a pre-marriage course which he attended with an accomplice posing as an engaged couple.


Theres a name for couples who forgo non-natural family planning theyre called Parents.


They can run any courses they like.

Theyre not entitled to have the rest of us pay for it.

So yes sn opinion piece by Liam Fay based on his experience of an Accord course.
In what way is this proof that Accord doesn't work, should be closed down and Relate brought in instead?

haveringchick

I swindled the NSA wrote: »

They shouldn't.


You seem to have an issue with foreign and specifically British organisations doing so though ?

Why shouldn't they get the funding?
What services can Relate bring that Accord don't provide?
If Catholic couples looking to get married snd wanting advice or Catholic married couples who need advice don't have Accord where will they go to get counselling that fits in with their beliefs?

eviltwin

I'd be more concerned with any funding they get for counselling relationships in crisis. A couple in crisis need unbiased advice, not advice with an agenda.

eviltwin

haveringchick wrote: »

Why shouldn't they get the funding?
What services can Relate bring that Accord don't provide?

Unbiased, non judgemental, trained counselling