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Nature in the News

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  • #542
    Zoo4m8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭Zoo4m8


    Surely the remains of the burnt scrub would have to be cleared and the land ploughed as ( in my experience) the scrub re growth very quickly overwhelms any type of forage , for instance gorse seeds in the mulch when exposed to light very quickly take off..


  • #543
    vistafinder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 619 ✭✭✭vistafinder


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    Another Life: Leave those dandelions alone – they’re bumblebees’ breakfast

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/another-life-leave-those-dandelions-alone-they-re-bumblebees-breakfast-1.2188136?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Thats good to see.

    They are very welcome in my garden. I noticed around my place that the Small Tortoiseshell seems to like them more than the Bumblebees.

    I left a patch of Red Deadnettle grow since last year and the Bumblebees love it. The colour is beautiful and now there is some bluebells poping up through it.


  • #544
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,289 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i probably should be embarrassed by the fact that i only recently noticed that dandelion flowers close up at night. we've left them alone in a strip along the driveway where daffodils, muscari, and tulips were planted by a previous owner; partly because weeding out the dandelions without damaging the bulbs is way too much hassle.


  • #545
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    At present farmers with scrub on their land/commonages are not entitled to claim Single Farm Payments (SFP) on those lands. The scrub is not deemed active agricultural land. Under EU legislation High Value Nature areas (HVN) can claim payments for these areas (ie SPA's for Hen Harrier). The Government is choosing to ignore this, mainly because of their drive for greater intensification (Harvest 2020).
    When the farmers burn the scrub it is then deemed agricultural land and they will get the payments, because the land will be now deemed agricultural. Similar to if I burn my House down I will get the insurance.
    If it was non-farmers burning and the burning was damaging to farmers the farmers would be up in arms, but all we hear is silence from farming organisations like the IFA.

    Here's the IWT's solution:

    "The IWT believes that wild fires will only come under control when the Department of Agriculture stops single farm payments to those responsible. Upland habitats are being degraded at an alarming rate and it is disheartening to see those in authority shrugging their shoulders or looking the other way."

    Hard to argue with that.


  • #546
    V_Moth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,423 ✭✭✭V_Moth


    Two interesting ones on the BBC website this morning:

    Empty landscapes - http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-32549898

    Relative of the Grasshopper Warbler confirmed in China - http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-32536484


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  • #547
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    And a previous BBC piece with a similar theme to Empty Landscapes:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-25675002

    More than three quarters of large carnivores now in decline


  • #548
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    'Resident killer whales could die out due to pollution'

    http://www.irelandswildlife.com/resident-killer-whales-pollution-threat/


  • #549
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    No calves born in the last 30 years; that can't be good for the future.
    And they are getting their fish from the same waters as us. Makes you wonder.


  • #550
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    recedite wrote: »
    And they are getting their fish from the same waters as us. Makes you wonder.


    To even raise this may be perceived as fanaticism, but one wonders why something only ever becomes a serious problem when it affects us - after all, it is us who are causing such problems.

    (Not having a go at you, recedite, just questioning an unspoken given.)


  • #551
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    Interesting piece by Michael Viney in yesterday's IT on the potential benefits and drawbacks of (re-?)introducing Lynx and Beaver in the UK and here.

    It's not clear whether he thinks it might be a good idea or not; I suppose such ideas will take a bit of getting used to for many of us.

    On re-reading the article, I would say that on balance he sees the negatives as outweighing the positives.


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  • #552
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Heres the article

    Lynx are shy animals. In Germany they have them in the Bohemian forest, and a €6000 compensation fund set up in the 1990s to compensate farmers for livestock losses has still not been exhausted. But that is a vast uninhabited area. http://www.nationalpark-bayerischer-wald.de/english/nationalpark/nature_protection/index.htm
    In Ireland, we have lots of small Coillte forests, and they typically have sheep grazing up to the forest edge. So its a different proposition. The sheep farmers would not let the lynx live. If eagles are not left alone now, then lynx would certainly be killed if introduced.
    It might be feasible in a fairly large specially designated wilderness area though, such as the proposed Wild Nephin area.

    This whole issue of a "deer problem" is nonsense anyway. Deer are a valuable resource. If a farmer has too many on his land, just get someone to shoot them. Then eat them, or sell the meat.

    Beavers, now they would be good so see around the place, and would probably not attract any animosity from the locals in rural Ireland.


  • #553
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    recedite wrote: »
    In Ireland, we have lots of small Coillte forests, and they typically have sheep grazing up to the forest edge. So its a different proposition. The sheep farmers would not let the lynx live. If eagles are not left alone now, then lynx would certainly be killed if introduced.

    True enough
    recedite wrote: »
    It might be feasible in a fairly large specially designated wilderness area though, such as the proposed Wild Nephin area.

    I think that's the point: the question isn't really 'Should we introduce Lynx now?', but rather a) Do we want to introduce them in a couple of selected areas at some point in the future? And, if yes, then b) Where, and how can we best begin preparing for that now, in such a way that it will make ecological sense, and not arouse the hostility of the people living area.
    recedite wrote: »
    This whole issue of a "deer problem" is nonsense anyway. Deer are a valuable resource. If a farmer has too many on his land, just get someone to shoot them. Then eat them, or sell the meat.

    Shooting is certainly the only practical way to limit the numbers of deer and other wild herbivores - exotic or native - in the absence of large predators, and as such will always have to be an important part of the equation. However where the objective is a more balanced ecosystem in a particular area, predation by carnivores has many essential advantages over shooting. For e.g. in creating wariness of certain types of habitat, such as river banks, among large herbivores, thereby allowing the flora of such areas to recover.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q
    recedite wrote: »
    Beavers, now they would be good so see around the place, and would probably not attract any animosity from the locals in rural Ireland.

    Hard to know. Their introduction has encountered fairly dogged resistence in Britain from various sectors.


  • #554
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Jayzesake wrote: »
    Hard to know. Their introduction has encountered fairly dogged resistence in Britain from various sectors.
    I think opposition in the UK mostly stemmed from those who thought rivers should be managed to optimise salmon and trout fisheries. But here we have in Viney's article, a guy on the Blackwater who is in that line of business, but is calling for their introduction. The idea that salmonids cannot get past beaver dams seems a bit dubious to me.


  • #555
    dodderangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,203 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    recedite wrote: »


    This whole issue of a "deer problem" is nonsense anyway. Deer are a valuable resource. If a farmer has too many on his land, just get someone to shoot them. Then eat them, or sell the meat.

    .

    Problem is that it's already happening illegally. With lads in this country not working it's easy money. Poaching deer is ongoing problem in Ireland and lads are selling them at bout 100 quid a deer and getting 1 or 2 in a night every night is a nice bit of wallet for them.
    Was a lad caught in Wicklow last year with 34 carcasses of deer.
    He got a fine and 2 years suspended sentence and his rifles and licence taken off him.
    No doubt he'll probably be back shooting in next few years knowing this country


  • #556
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    If the guy had a deerhunting licence, then by "poaching" do you mean he was shooting somebody else's deer without permission, or was he shooting outside the season, or what?

    Either way it shows that an overpopulation of wild deer is a resource to be exploited, not a problem.
    If somebody came onto the radio and started complaining about too many salmon in the rivers, you'd say they were mad, but its almost the same thing.


  • #557
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    recedite wrote: »
    If the guy had a deerhunting licence, then by "poaching" do you mean he was shooting somebody else's deer without permission, or was he shooting outside the season, or what?

    Either way it shows that an overpopulation of wild deer is a resource to be exploited, not a problem.
    If somebody came onto the radio and started complaining about too many salmon in the rivers, you'd say they were mad, but its almost the same thing.

    Too many deer is a problem though. Overgrazing leads to limited/no regeneration of native forests. Even in the National parks there is littel forest regeneration due to overgrazing. That affects rare species like wood warbler, redstart.


  • #558
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Too many deer is a problem though. Overgrazing leads to limited/no regeneration of native forests. Even in the National parks there is littel forest regeneration due to overgrazing. That affects rare species like wood warbler, redstart.

    Couldn't agree more, other than to say that it's not just rare species that are adversely affected: entire woodland ecosystems across the country (the tiny amount there are) are slowly dying as a result of overbrowsing, and the associated problems that contributes to, such as infestation by invasive exotic plant species like rhododendron.


  • #559
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Too many deer is a problem though..
    Its only a problem if they are left there. In the Viney article, he says a farmer was on the Joe Duffy radio show complaining about seeing 50-60 deer on his pasture every morning. That's €5000-€6000 worth of livestock by the prices quoted above. Whats to complain about?
    He's probably looking for some sort of compensation or subsidy so he can be paid to leave them there. These guys have developed a "cheque in the post" mentality over the years.


  • #560
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    recedite wrote: »
    Its only a problem if they are left there. In the Viney article, he says a farmer was on the Joe Duffy radio show complaining about seeing 50-60 deer on his pasture every morning. That's €5000-€6000 worth of livestock by the prices quoted above. Whats to complain about?

    Culling wild deer down to a level in which they won't overbrowse native woodland isn't as easy as you might think.

    If it was, the problem wouldn't exist.


  • #561
    dodderangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,203 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    recedite wrote: »
    If the guy had a deerhunting licence, then by "poaching" do you mean he was shooting somebody else's deer without permission, or was he shooting outside the season, or what?

    .

    Shooting out of season of both males and females and at night. That's poaching.
    Not even sure if he had the right calibre either


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  • #562
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Jayzesake wrote: »
    Culling wild deer down to a level in which they won't overbrowse native woodland isn't as easy as you might think.
    As it happens I do know a bit about it, and IMO the problem is not one of shooting the deer, it is the issue of getting it to the consumer.
    I don't shoot, but I get a haunch of venison now and again. This would be shot less than 10Km from where I live, so this is a food with very low carbon footprint, 100% free range, organic, low fat game and any payment going into the local economy. To me that is a vastly superior product to some bargain chicken fillets on the supermarket shelf, imported from a factory farm in the far east and reared with growth hormones and antibiotics.

    The guy who shoots them kills cleanly with one shot, because a) he is an experienced stalker and b) the high calibre bullets cost one or two euro each.
    However he is not allowed to sell venison to the public without a game license. AFAIK the requirements to get a game license are ridiculously expensive, it requires something like a mini-abbatoir with inspections etc..

    So you will not see venison for sale very often. A similar thing happened with home made brown bread and free range eggs; the red tape and licensing requirements came in, and the roadside signs selling the product had to be taken down.
    You can still get all this stuff direct, but you have to know where to get it. Its almost on a par with the drugs trade now. The "farmers markets" are quite good in this regard, but the onus is still on the producers to comply with any regulations. So in the theory the hygiene is good, but it is hardly "home-made" stuff these days; they are often more like small industrial units.

    Now, going back to the farmer guy complaining about the deer on the Joe Duffy show. I heard the interview, and he shot two or three deer himself, but then decided not to shoot any more because he found it distressing. At no point did he actually go out to stalk them. A couple of times when he went to the field he saw them, went back for the gun, then took a few pot shots.
    I'd say they died slowly in a cruel and inhumane way, killed incompetently and with the wrong weapon. Maybe the carcasses weren't even used for food. IMO that should be illegal, even if he owns the land.

    A lot of deer are shot by recreational hunters, and the carcasses may be under-utilised, because really they are just out at the weekend for the sport. They don't want to have a dead deer in the jeep on Monday morning when they go back to work.
    I'm not sure whats needed, but probably some sort of overrall national policy is needed to facilitate the more highly skilled deerstalkers, maybe linking them up with local butchers or something, and also marketing venison on TV etc. to the Irish public as a healthy food product.


  • #563
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    recedite wrote: »
    As it happens I do know a bit about it, and IMO the problem is not one of shooting the deer, it is the issue of getting it to the consumer.
    I don't shoot, but I get a haunch of venison now and again. This would be shot less than 10Km from where I live, so this is a food with very low carbon footprint, 100% free range, organic, low fat game and any payment going into the local economy. To me that is a vastly superior product to some bargain chicken fillets on the supermarket shelf, imported from a factory farm in the far east and reared with growth hormones and antibiotics.

    As you say yourself, you see the issue primarily from the perspective of deer meat as a resource to be harvested for food (for us). And yes, that is obviously an important element in trying to limit the extent of the problem.

    However, I am more concerned with the disastrous effects that super-numerous deer (and feral goats) have on the tiny amount of native woodland we have in this country. From an ecological perspective, experience from across the world shows that shooting generally doesn't work as a means of balancing the numbers of wild herbivores with their surroundings.

    The most celebrated example of that is of course Yellowstone NP where, after wolves were extirpated in the 1920s, 70 years of shooting completely failed to prevent Elk becoming overpopulated - that in the U.S., where guns are far more prevalent than here. More importantly, the Elk lost any fear, with dire consequences for almost every aspect of the ecology of the park. The wolves' re-introduction in the 1990s saw things very quickly return to some sort of ecological equilibrium.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q

    In Ireland we have to work with the situation as we find it, and that means that shooting is really the only practical option we have in terms of limiting the effects of a deer population that has no constraints from predation. And shooting would remain our only option on almost the whole island even if predators were to be re-introduced in a couple of specific locations. Shooting would likely also be required to control the numbers of predators on occasion, should they become too numerous themselves.

    (It's important to remember that, whatever we do, it's always going to be within a context that's artificial, with most of the land dedicated to us, particularly in the form of agriculture. But that is not a reason for doing nothing: we should still strive to bring some balance back to our more natural areas.)

    To sum up, from an ecological perspective, shooting can only go some ways towards alleviating the problem of overbrowsing; it can never resolve it.


  • #564
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Jayzesake wrote: »
    ..Yellowstone NP where, after wolves were extirpated in the 1920s, 70 years of shooting completely failed to prevent Elk becoming overpopulated - that in the U.S., where guns are far more prevalent than here.
    It would be interesting to compare the number of guns per square Km of woodland in Ireland with USA, Canada, and continental Europe. I don't know what the figures are, but I suspect we would be higher than most.

    Wolves undoubtedly make subtle changes to deer behaviour, but wolves are out of the question for Ireland, so that only leaves guns.


  • #565
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,289 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    was shooting allowed/practiced in yellowstone; given it's a national park?


  • #566
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    recedite wrote: »
    Wolves undoubtedly make subtle changes to deer behaviour, but wolves are out of the question for Ireland, so that only leaves guns.

    Results from Yellowstone demonstrate that wolves effect much more than just suble changes to deer behaviour, and that the ecological consequences can be positively dramatic.

    Wolves are certainly out of the question for Ireland right now, but it is possible that this will change in the medium term future. Wolves have been allowed to return - even welcomed - to much of continental Europe, and have provided a massive boost to tourism in those places (in Yellowstone too).

    But yes, as I said above, shooting will remain the main option in Ireland regardless of any future re-introductions of predators.


  • #567
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    was shooting allowed/practiced in yellowstone; given it's a national park?

    There was periodic culling within the park from the 1930s on, as well as removal of Elk to other areas in order to reduce population pressure. Afaik, Joe Public was only allowed to shoot them when they left the park in the winter, as most of them apparently do.

    http://www.cof.orst.edu/leopold/papers/Painter_2013_TrophicCascadesYellowstone.pdf


  • #568
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I see Aldi supermarkets are now selling venison steaks....all the way from new Zealand!!
    No "deer problem" over there obviously, and no EU subsidies either.


  • #569
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    recedite wrote: »
    I see Aldi supermarkets are now selling venison steaks....all the way from new Zealand!!
    No "deer problem" over there obviously, and no EU subsidies either.
    I think that is farmed deer. Much easier to have good food hygiene with farmed deer than hunting wild game.


  • #570
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Maybe, maybe not. Lidl are selling kangaroo steaks. Very unlikely they are farmed.
    Its crazy to see people walking out of a supermarket in Wicklow carrying lamb, kangaroo and venison from the other side of the world.

    OK, I don't see any kangaroos around, but there should be any amount of locally produced lamb and venison in the shops for Joe Public.


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  • #571
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    recedite wrote: »

    OK, I don't see any kangaroos around, but there should be any amount of locally produced lamb and venison in the shops for Joe Public.

    x2


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