Why has the West boycotted the parade by those who saved the world from Nazism.

Just a little Samba · 09-05-2015 08:22PM

gandalf wrote: »

also at the beginning of WW2 they were more than happy to align themselves with the those very same Nazi's

From reading your posts the last few months in Politics I thought you were smarter than this.

The Soviet Union and the Third Reich were NEVER aligned.

A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, it's not even cooperation, it's "you stay in your yard, I'll stay in mine" and nothing else. It was no more an alliance than Britain's appeasement of German expansion.

gandalf · 09-05-2015 08:28PM

Just a little Samba wrote: »

A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, it's not even cooperation, it's "you stay in your yard, I'll stay in mine" and nothing else. It was no more an alliance than Britain's appeasement of German expansion.

So the Russians rolled into Poland a couple weeks after the Nazi's because they wanted to stretch their troops legs then.

They facilitated the Germans kicking off WW2 with the pact and paid the price of this treachery with the blood of their own people later on when the Germans did what was always going to happen and attack them.

the treaty included a secret protocol that divided territories of Romania, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland into German and Soviet "spheres of influence", anticipating potential "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries.

....

It was only in 1989 that the Soviet authorities admitted the existence of the secret protocol of the Nazi–Soviet Pact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 09-05-2015 08:29PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Anyone name the only 2 democracy's in the world to ever declare war on each other ?

The Backwards Man wrote: »

There's been a few?

The one in central America about a football match was one, must look it up.

Everyone mentions Finland and the UK but you're correct that there have been many more.

The Football War was between El Salvador and Honduras, although it was mainly about land rather than football.

Israel v Lebanon and Ecuador v Peru are two continual democracy v democracy match-ups.

Sand · 09-05-2015 08:51PM

Playboy wrote: »

The Russians almost singlehandly beat the Nazi's. How long were they begging for Roosevelt and Churchill to open a western front to take some of the pressure off?

Why were they begging for help if they won the war singlehandly? The truth is the Allies landed in June 1944 and drove east into Germany to win the war in 11 months, which really showed up what a saga the Soviets made out of fighting the Wehrmacht for 4 years.

YanaSoko · 09-05-2015 09:06PM

Im not a historian and would not know all the details of the WWII but im russian...and today is the greatest day as I can say thanks to the veterans who fought in WWII... if they did not win the war today I would not be here, I would not have the family I have now. Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus and other nationalities would always refer to each other as brothers and sisters. And I felt sick knowing that American, British and other leaders would boycott the parade today. On the 65th anniversary number of militant units from Britain, the US and France took part in the parade in Moscow.... This year they boycott the parade in the protest over Russian's intervention in Ukraine. But I felt completely devastated what happened in Ukraine today when one of the politicians ripped the ribbon from one of the veterans and burned it. That was crazy. I have family in Ukraine and I spend number of happy years there... During the WWII there were no Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhstanians, Belarus...we all were as one. For the events like this we all should put our differences aside and celebrate it together but I guess some people etc are not happy that Germany got beaten and believe that they would have a better life today if Germany won... which can be true...But we will never know this...Never!

Balmed Out · 09-05-2015 09:19PM

Playboy wrote: »

Revisionist nonsense. The Russians almost singlehandly beat the Nazi's. How long were they begging for Roosevelt and Churchill to open a western front to take some of the pressure off? Churchill was too interested in the farce that was the invasion of Italy and fighting battles in North Africa because his eyes were firmly on the world after the war and the continuity of the Empire. The Russians broke the back of the Germans and had they lost and not advanced into Eastern Europe then Europe would not have been recovered by the British and the US... it would have been too late. The Americans would never have committed to taking on the Germans without the Red Army and if you think they would have then you know very little of US politics at the time.

While the Soviets were primarily responsible for the defeat of the NAZI's you cant dismiss the importance of the western allies and especially of lend lease.
Soviet soldiers were transported in US trucks and often fought with US tanks, planes etc

Skylinehead · 09-05-2015 09:20PM

Sand wrote: »

Why were they begging for help if they won the war singlehandly? The truth is the Allies landed in June 1944 and drove east into Germany to win the war in 11 months, which really showed up what a saga the Soviets made out of fighting the Wehrmacht for 4 years.

That's entirely wrong. You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the Germans had far more men and resources devoted to the Eastern Front than the West.

gandalf · 09-05-2015 09:21PM

I don't think anyone is questioning the sacrifice made by ordinary Soviets however selective revisionism by some ignoring the facts that Stalin facilitated the beginning of the war has to be pointed out.

The fact that a majority of world leaders stayed away is not a slur on those who died in the valid cause of the defeat of Nazism but imho is protecting their memory by not validating the shameful actions of the current Russian regime.

Sobko · 09-05-2015 09:30PM

gandalf wrote: »

I don't think anyone is questioning the sacrifice made by ordinary Soviets however selective revisionism by some ignoring the facts that Stalin facilitated the beginning of the war has to be pointed out.

The fact that a majority of world leaders stayed away is not a slur on those who died in the valid cause of the defeat of Nazism but imho is protecting their memory by not validating the shameful actions of the current Russian regime.

The allies of WW1 also facilitied the rise of Nazism in Germany.

Sobko · 09-05-2015 09:33PM

YanaSoko wrote: »

Im not a historian and would not know all the details of the WWII but im russian...and today is the greatest day as I can say thanks to the veterans who fought in WWII... if they did not win the war today I would not be here, I would not have the family I have now. Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus and other nationalities would always refer to each other as brothers and sisters. And I felt sick knowing that American, British and other leaders would boycott the parade today. On the 65th anniversary number of militant units from Britain, the US and France took part in the parade in Moscow.... This year they boycott the parade in the protest over Russian's intervention in Ukraine. But I felt completely devastated what happened in Ukraine today when one of the politicians ripped the ribbon from one of the veterans and burned it. That was crazy. I have family in Ukraine and I spend number of happy years there... During the WWII there were no Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhstanians, Belarus...we all were as one. For the events like this we all should put our differences aside and celebrate it together but I guess some people etc are not happy that Germany got beaten and believe that they would have a better life today if Germany won... which can be true...But we will never know this...Never!

It's quite sad that the western leaders have chosen to politicise these events and sacrifice the memories of those who died in WW2. They can make their point in other ways. Some of these veterans won't be around for much longer.

IrishCule · 09-05-2015 09:36PM

Thought it was fairly accepted by everyone these days that the war was won by Russian men and American equipment. In fact it's fairly obvious with any sort of research into it.

Harry Palmr · 09-05-2015 09:39PM

YanaSoko wrote: »

Im not a historian and would not know all the details of the WWII but im russian...and today is the greatest day as I can say thanks to the veterans who fought in WWII... if they did not win the war today I would not be here, I would not have the family I have now. Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus and other nationalities would always refer to each other as brothers and sisters. And I felt sick knowing that American, British and other leaders would boycott the parade today. On the 65th anniversary number of militant units from Britain, the US and France took part in the parade in Moscow.... This year they boycott the parade in the protest over Russian's intervention in Ukraine. But I felt completely devastated what happened in Ukraine today when one of the politicians ripped the ribbon from one of the veterans and burned it. That was crazy. I have family in Ukraine and I spend number of happy years there... During the WWII there were no Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhstanians, Belarus...we all were as one. For the events like this we all should put our differences aside and celebrate it together but I guess some people etc are not happy that Germany got beaten and believe that they would have a better life today if Germany won... which can be true...But we will never know this...Never!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_(Caucasus)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

enfant terrible · 09-05-2015 09:44PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_(Caucasus)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Disgusting

Irish Praetorian · 09-05-2015 09:50PM

Sobko wrote: »

It's quite sad that the western leaders have chosen to politicise these events and sacrifice the memories of those who died in WW2. They can make their point in other ways. Some of these veterans won't be around for much longer.

Right, because nothing says keeping the memory of WW2 apolitical more than decrying your neighbours as a Fascist Neo-Nazi Junta out persecute any Russian they get their hands on.

Harry Palmr · 09-05-2015 09:53PM

enfant terrible wrote: »

Disgusting

While its true Stalin doesn't exactly get a free pass, the sheer scale of his crimes is still largely unappreciated outside the old Soviet bloc, if people wonder why Ukraine looks west that is why.

gandalf · 09-05-2015 09:53PM

Sobko wrote: »

It's quite sad that the western leaders have chosen to politicise these events and sacrifice the memories of those who died in WW2. They can make their point in other ways. Some of these veterans won't be around for much longer.

On the flip side it could also be said that it's quite sad that the Russian regime has used the parade to politicise these events with what in effect was military porn for the masses.

pablomakaveli · 09-05-2015 10:05PM

gandalf wrote: »

On the flip side it could also be said that it's quite sad that the Russian regime has used the parade to politicise these events with what in effect was military porn for the masses.

Compared to say the British commerations which were a more sombre affair which seemed more appropriate.

Sobko · 09-05-2015 10:08PM

gandalf wrote: »

On the flip side it could also be said that it's quite sad that the Russian regime has used the parade to politicise these events with what in effect was military porn for the masses.

It appears to be a tradition to have these military parades in honour of the military men and women. Not a big fan myself. Still disappointing as it's the second occasion the rest of Europe has decided to make political points that directly slight soviet soldiers who have nothing to do with Putins politics.

Hidalgo · 09-05-2015 10:12PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Anyone name the only 2 democracy's in the world to ever declare war on each other ?

Spain and US of A?????

gandalf · 09-05-2015 10:21PM

Sobko wrote: »

it's the second occasion the rest of Europe has decided to make political points that directly slight soviet soldiers who have nothing to do with Putins politics.

Have to disagree with you totally here. This parade had everything to do with the Russian Regime. The most talk was about the size of the parade, the fact it had some new Russian military tech on display for the first time. The actual supposed true meaning of the parade was warped and distorted by the military willy waving by the Putin junta.

Even the Ukraine had a far more appropriate and sombre event to mark the day.

Sobko · 09-05-2015 10:27PM

gandalf wrote: »

Have to disagree with you totally here. This parade had everything to do with the Russian Regime. The most talk was about the size of the parade, the fact it had some new Russian military tech on display for the first time. The actual supposed true meaning of the parade was warped and distorted by the military willy waving by the Putin junta.

Even the Ukraine had a far more appropriate and sombre event to mark the day.

So attend the St. Petersburg event. Lay a reath at the monuments scattered throughout Russian cities.

gandalf · 09-05-2015 10:33PM

Sobko wrote: »

So attend the St. Petersburg event. Lay a reath at the monuments scattered throughout Russian cities.

I would be definitely like to do that. I just finished reading a book about the siege of Leningrad.

I'll just wait until the Novofuhrers regime is no longer in charge.

SaveOurLyric · 09-05-2015 10:44PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The young men of RAF bomber command who sacrificed themselves during the bombing raids over Germany saved us from a future of Nazism

I thought the jury was still out on whether the bombing campaign had an effect at all on the outcome of the war. And was mainly just PR for the homefront that we were still socking it to Hitler while he held the whole of Europe.

gandalf · 09-05-2015 10:46PM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I thought the jury was still out on whether the bombing campaign had an effect at all on the outcome of the war. And was mainly just PR for the homefront that we were still socking it to Hitler while he held the whole of Europe.

I don't think one nation or one arm of their forces can claim to be the individual reason for the allied victory in WW2. It was a combined effort.

jimgoose · 09-05-2015 10:47PM

Because God-damn Russkies. Capiche??

SaveOurLyric · 09-05-2015 10:57PM

gandalf wrote: »

I don't think one nation or one arm of their forces can claim to be the individual reason for the allied victory in WW2. It was a combined effort.

I'm no expert on it. But it is questionable whether the bombing campaign was one of those contributing efforts at all. It was even under question at the highest level at the time. I guess the imprecise answer is minimal if any.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v01/v01p247_Lutton.html

Playboy · 09-05-2015 10:59PM

Sand wrote: »

Why were they begging for help if they won the war singlehandly? The truth is the Allies landed in June 1944 and drove east into Germany to win the war in 11 months, which really showed up what a saga the Soviets made out of fighting the Wehrmacht for 4 years.

How many battalions of German troops did the Russians beat vs the Allies? The march of the Russians from the East was far bloodier and met the far more difficult resistance. I'm not sure what reason you have for downplaying the Russian contribution. Whatever kind of an evil tyrant Stalin was it should not detract from the amazing sacrifice the Russian people made which was far in excess of any other nation.

As for what happened after the war ended I think you will find that the blame for the onset of the cold war lies squarely at the feet of the US. Truman and Eisenhower were war mongering fools who set the US on a very different path to one Roosevelt had spent his life laying the groundwork for.

Playboy · 09-05-2015 11:02PM

Balmed Out wrote: »

While the Soviets were primarily responsible for the defeat of the NAZI's you cant dismiss the importance of the western allies and especially of lend lease.
Soviet soldiers were transported in US trucks and often fought with US tanks, planes etc

I dont mean to downplay the importance of the West but far too many people are of the view that the Russians were an interesting sideshow to the all conquering US. Ask the average american who won the war vs the Nazi's and the will just have a look of confusion as they dont think there are even any contenders to the US for the title.

gandalf · 09-05-2015 11:08PM

Playboy wrote: »

I dont mean to downplay the importance of the West but far too many people are of the view that the Russians were an interesting sideshow to the all conquering US. Ask the average american who won the war vs the Nazi's and the will just have a look of confusion as they dont think there are even any contenders to the US for the title.

TBH if you ask the average American who won the Vietnam War half would probably answer that they did.

The Russians contributed to the allied victory but again to what degree is a matter of opinion and hard to quantify tbh.

enfant terrible · 09-05-2015 11:11PM

Playboy wrote: »

I dont mean to downplay the importance of the West but far too many people are of the view that the Russians were an interesting sideshow to the all conquering US. Ask the average american who won the war vs the Nazi's and the will just have a look of confusion as they dont think there are even any contenders to the US for the title.

I find the opposite from Americans and Europeans, who see its obvious the Russians played the biggest part in defeating the Nazis.

Hard not too with school and the History channel proving it.

Why has the West boycotted the parade by those who saved the world from Nazism.

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