Why has the West boycotted the parade by those who saved the world from Nazism.

Egginacup

The 70 anniversary of the destruction of the Third Reich was celebrated by the people who lost 25 million souls in bringing about such an eventuality this week. The Wehrmacht invaded the USSR in 1941 with 3 million crack troops and laid waste to millions of square miles and lives.
The celebrations in Moscow of the people who bore the brunt of the death and destruction of the most massive military invasion in history, and ultimately defeated it in four appalling years, was boycotted by the leaders of the countries whose freedom was assured by the defeat of the Third Reich.

Why would this happen?

Sand

Egginacup wrote: »

The 70 anniversary of the destruction of the Third Reich was celebrated by the people who lost 25 million souls in bringing about such an eventuality this week. The Wehrmacht invaded the USSR in 1941 with 3 million crack troops and laid waste to millions of square miles and lives.
The celebrations in Moscow of the people who bore the brunt of the death and destruction of the most massive military invasion in history, and ultimately defeated it in four appalling years, was boycotted by the leaders of the countries whose freedom was assured by the defeat of the Third Reich.

Why would this happen?

Maybe they remembered that the Soviets were allied with the Nazis during the invasions of Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, France and the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the Atlantic?

darkpagandeath

:pac:

Just a little Samba

Sand wrote: »

Maybe they remembered that the Soviets were allied with the Nazis during the invasions of Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, France and the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the Atlantic?

A non-aggression pact is not an alliance. Not even close, it's a "you leave me alone, I leave you alone".

The Backwards Man

You can't think of a single reason yourself Eggy? What do RT make of it?

darkpagandeath

Anyone name the only 2 democracy's in the world to ever declare war on each other ?

Sand

Oh, the Poles were carved up by a non-aggression pact, right.

If the Soviets saved the world from Nazism, who saved the Finns, the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Latvians and the Estonians from Stalinism?

CiDeRmAn

Yeah, the Soviets were in a fight for their lives against the Nazis but it was a bit like your two local scumbags fighting in the local supermarket carpark, yes scumbag no 1 won't be hassling you too much once he's been glassed in the neck, but don't imagine life under scumbag no2s shadow is going to be a picnic

Just a little Samba

Sand wrote: »

Oh, the Poles were carved up by a non-aggression pact, right.

If the Soviets saved the world from Nazism, who saved the Finns, the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Latvians and the Estonians from Stalinism?

The Finns saved themselves from Stalinism AND from British invasion, actually.

Nobody saved the baltic states, they became part of the Soviet Union.

Just a little Samba

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Yeah, the Soviets were in a fight for their lives against the Nazis but it was a bit like your two local scumbags fighting in the local supermarket carpark, yes scumbag no 1 won't be hassling you too much once he's been glassed in the neck, but don't imagine life under scumbag no2s shadow is going to be a picnic

Without the Eastern Front, the Allies would never have won the war. The Germans would have held France indefinitely and had a much easier time of launching a full scale invasion of Britain.

SEPT 23 1989

The young men of RAF bomber command who sacrificed themselves during the bombing raids over Germany saved us from a future of Nazism

CiDeRmAn

Just a little Samba wrote: »

Without the Eastern Front, the Allies would never have won the war. The Germans would have held France indefinitely and had a much easier time of launching a full scale invasion of Britain.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the Soviets were more interested in putting down the Nazi threat for good rather than saving western Europe from their influence.
Don't get me wrong, they had the best of reasons to do so, but saving us was a side effect at best, and it certainly didn't quell their ambition to turn Europe to their cause in the post war period.

The Backwards Man

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Anyone name the only 2 democracy's in the world to ever declare war on each other ?

There's been a few?

The one in central America about a football match was one, must look it up.

Just a little Samba

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the Soviets were more interested in putting down the Nazi threat for good rather than saving western Europe from their influence.
Don't get me wrong, they had the best of reasons to do so, but saving us was a side effect at best, and it certainly didn't quell their ambition to turn Europe to their cause in the post war period.

I never claimed they cared about us. Quite the opposite, it was just a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" for the duration of the war.

If Germany hadn't have broken the pact and the eastern front didn't open up Russia would have been happy to stay out of it indefinitely and continued to focus on expansion on their own eastern and southern borders.

CiDeRmAn

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The young men of RAF bomber command who sacrificed themselves during the bombing raids over Germany saved us from a future of Nazism

A bit, but they were certainly aided by the fact the Nazis found them self fighting over too many fronts.
If the allies hadn't of taken Italy, if the Nazis hadn't over extended into Russia, if the Nazi war machine hadn't failed in their atomic ambitions, we would all be speaking German right now.

Just a little Samba

The Backwards Man wrote: »

There's been a few?

The one in central America about a football match was one, must look it up.

There have been quite a few really, but the ones he's thinking of is Finland and the UK.

enfant terrible

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

A bit, but they were certainly aided by the fact the Nazis found them self fighting over too many fronts.
If the allies hadn't of taken Italy, if the Nazis hadn't over extended into Russia, if the Nazi war machine hadn't failed in their atomic ambitions, we would all be speaking German right now.

Lot of if's there.

The Backwards Man

Just a little Samba wrote: »

There have been quite a few really, but the ones he's thinking of is Finland and the UK.

I thought it might have been Russia and Georgia no? Seeing this thread is about the benevolent force of good in a chaotic and evil world that is the former Soviet Union?

Sand

Just a little Samba wrote: »

Without the Eastern Front, the Allies would never have won the war. The Germans would have held France indefinitely and had a much easier time of launching a full scale invasion of Britain.

Without the Soviet alliance, the Germans would never have started the war.

The importance of the eastern front is overstated by boorish Russian chauvinism which entirely dismisses the efforts and sacrifices of all other nations and veterans. Germany just prior to the war was spending 20% of its GDP to produce war material that the US could match with just 2% of its GDP, before it went on a war footing at all. That's not to say the US won the war single handed - but it highlights just how hopeless Germany's position was.

Just a little Samba

enfant terrible wrote: »

Lot of if's there.

Remove the eastern front and the Allies wouldn't have be able to take Italy or Greece.

Russia being dragged into the war is what lost the war for Germany. No matter how many Tom Clancy books and movies try to tell you otherwise.

The war was lost in the east, not the beaches of Normandy.

darkpagandeath

Just a little Samba wrote: »

Remove the eastern front and the Allies wouldn't have be able to take Italy or Greece.

Russia being dragged into the war is what lost the war for Germany. No matter how many Tom Clancy books and movies try to tell you otherwise.

The war was lost in the east, not the beaches of Normandy.

The war was lost when Hitler took charge of the army.

Roger Hassenforder

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

A bit, but they were certainly aided by the fact the Nazis found them self fighting over too many fronts.

this.

And Lend-Lease.

Just a little Samba

Sand wrote: »

Without the Soviet alliance, the Germans would never have started the war.

There was no Soviet Alliance, no matter how many times you say there was.

Just a little Samba

darkpagandeath wrote: »

The war was lost when Hitler took charge of the army.

That too.
Good at getting people to blindly support his lunacy, not so good and organising a military. Was Idiocy for him to disregard he advice of his generals so brazenly. But sure crazy is as crazy dose and all that.

The_Valeyard

I think it's more of the point that the Soviets 'liberated' *cough cough* Eastern Europe, and then proceded to occupy it for the next near 50years.

Just a little Samba

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I think it's more of the point that the Soviets 'liberated' *cough cough* Eastern Europe, and then proceded to occupy it for the next near 50years.

The idea that the soviets liberated anything is obviously ridiculous.

They only entered the war in Europe because they were attacked. They were so sure they wouldn't be attacked they didn't even mobilise troops when they got intel that the Germans were massing in the east and basically allowed themselves to be caught with their pants down.

There was also zero military brilliance in their defence (and it was a defence) of Russia proper from Germany invasion. The basically reclaimed Stalingrad by marching people in front of the german lines in an effort over run them and this carried on all over the eastern front, hence 13 military and 12 civilian deaths!

But, the point still remains, if Hitler wasn't so stupid and didn't invade Russia and open up an Eastern front, the UK would have been much easier work for the reich.

Smiles35

They were allways after Russia ultimatly. No amount of vedic sybols on flags could disguise that. And the roots and public discourse of these mad houses combined strech way back into the 1800's. I'm with the op in this. Our politicians should be above these events and give sympathy where possible.

DEFTLEFTHAND

How come these people never had to answer for the widescale acts of depravity carried out by their soldiers as the war drew to a close in Berlin?

Playboy

Sand wrote: »

Without the Soviet alliance, the Germans would never have started the war.

The importance of the eastern front is overstated by boorish Russian chauvinism which entirely dismisses the efforts and sacrifices of all other nations and veterans. Germany just prior to the war was spending 20% of its GDP to produce war material that the US could match with just 2% of its GDP, before it went on a war footing at all. That's not to say the US won the war single handed - but it highlights just how hopeless Germany's position was.

Revisionist nonsense. The Russians almost singlehandly beat the Nazi's. How long were they begging for Roosevelt and Churchill to open a western front to take some of the pressure off? Churchill was too interested in the farce that was the invasion of Italy and fighting battles in North Africa because his eyes were firmly on the world after the war and the continuity of the Empire. The Russians broke the back of the Germans and had they lost and not advanced into Eastern Europe then Europe would not have been recovered by the British and the US... it would have been too late. The Americans would never have committed to taking on the Germans without the Red Army and if you think they would have then you know very little of US politics at the time.

gandalf

Egginacup wrote: »

Why has the West boycotted the parade by those who saved the world from Nazism.

Because those forces who fought Nazism back then are acting like them today.

(also at the beginning of WW2 they were more than happy to align themselves with the those very same Nazi's. Always wondered would the body count of Russians had been so high if Stalin decided to stand up to a very obvious threat to the USSR then. A lot of the Pro-Russia cheerleaders seem to forget that sordid stain on Russias soul)

Just a little Samba

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

How come these people never had to answer for the widescale acts of depravity carried out by their soldiers as the war drew to a close in Berlin?

For the same reason the Allies didn't have to pay for the fire bombing of civilian Dresden.

To the victor, the spoils.

Just a little Samba

gandalf wrote: »

also at the beginning of WW2 they were more than happy to align themselves with the those very same Nazi's

From reading your posts the last few months in Politics I thought you were smarter than this.

The Soviet Union and the Third Reich were NEVER aligned.

A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, it's not even cooperation, it's "you stay in your yard, I'll stay in mine" and nothing else. It was no more an alliance than Britain's appeasement of German expansion.

gandalf

Just a little Samba wrote: »

A non-aggression pact is not an alliance, it's not even cooperation, it's "you stay in your yard, I'll stay in mine" and nothing else. It was no more an alliance than Britain's appeasement of German expansion.

So the Russians rolled into Poland a couple weeks after the Nazi's because they wanted to stretch their troops legs then.

They facilitated the Germans kicking off WW2 with the pact and paid the price of this treachery with the blood of their own people later on when the Germans did what was always going to happen and attack them.

the treaty included a secret protocol that divided territories of Romania, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland into German and Soviet "spheres of influence", anticipating potential "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries.

....

It was only in 1989 that the Soviet authorities admitted the existence of the secret protocol of the Nazi–Soviet Pact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Anyone name the only 2 democracy's in the world to ever declare war on each other ?

The Backwards Man wrote: »

There's been a few?

The one in central America about a football match was one, must look it up.

Everyone mentions Finland and the UK but you're correct that there have been many more.

The Football War was between El Salvador and Honduras, although it was mainly about land rather than football.

Israel v Lebanon and Ecuador v Peru are two continual democracy v democracy match-ups.

Sand

Playboy wrote: »

The Russians almost singlehandly beat the Nazi's. How long were they begging for Roosevelt and Churchill to open a western front to take some of the pressure off?

Why were they begging for help if they won the war singlehandly? The truth is the Allies landed in June 1944 and drove east into Germany to win the war in 11 months, which really showed up what a saga the Soviets made out of fighting the Wehrmacht for 4 years.

YanaSoko

Im not a historian and would not know all the details of the WWII but im russian...and today is the greatest day as I can say thanks to the veterans who fought in WWII... if they did not win the war today I would not be here, I would not have the family I have now. Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus and other nationalities would always refer to each other as brothers and sisters. And I felt sick knowing that American, British and other leaders would boycott the parade today. On the 65th anniversary number of militant units from Britain, the US and France took part in the parade in Moscow.... This year they boycott the parade in the protest over Russian's intervention in Ukraine. But I felt completely devastated what happened in Ukraine today when one of the politicians ripped the ribbon from one of the veterans and burned it. That was crazy. I have family in Ukraine and I spend number of happy years there... During the WWII there were no Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhstanians, Belarus...we all were as one. For the events like this we all should put our differences aside and celebrate it together but I guess some people etc are not happy that Germany got beaten and believe that they would have a better life today if Germany won... which can be true...But we will never know this...Never!

Balmed Out

Playboy wrote: »

Revisionist nonsense. The Russians almost singlehandly beat the Nazi's. How long were they begging for Roosevelt and Churchill to open a western front to take some of the pressure off? Churchill was too interested in the farce that was the invasion of Italy and fighting battles in North Africa because his eyes were firmly on the world after the war and the continuity of the Empire. The Russians broke the back of the Germans and had they lost and not advanced into Eastern Europe then Europe would not have been recovered by the British and the US... it would have been too late. The Americans would never have committed to taking on the Germans without the Red Army and if you think they would have then you know very little of US politics at the time.

While the Soviets were primarily responsible for the defeat of the NAZI's you cant dismiss the importance of the western allies and especially of lend lease.
Soviet soldiers were transported in US trucks and often fought with US tanks, planes etc

Skylinehead

Sand wrote: »

Why were they begging for help if they won the war singlehandly? The truth is the Allies landed in June 1944 and drove east into Germany to win the war in 11 months, which really showed up what a saga the Soviets made out of fighting the Wehrmacht for 4 years.

That's entirely wrong. You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the Germans had far more men and resources devoted to the Eastern Front than the West.

gandalf

I don't think anyone is questioning the sacrifice made by ordinary Soviets however selective revisionism by some ignoring the facts that Stalin facilitated the beginning of the war has to be pointed out.

The fact that a majority of world leaders stayed away is not a slur on those who died in the valid cause of the defeat of Nazism but imho is protecting their memory by not validating the shameful actions of the current Russian regime.

Sobko

gandalf wrote: »

I don't think anyone is questioning the sacrifice made by ordinary Soviets however selective revisionism by some ignoring the facts that Stalin facilitated the beginning of the war has to be pointed out.

The fact that a majority of world leaders stayed away is not a slur on those who died in the valid cause of the defeat of Nazism but imho is protecting their memory by not validating the shameful actions of the current Russian regime.

The allies of WW1 also facilitied the rise of Nazism in Germany.

Sobko

YanaSoko wrote: »

Im not a historian and would not know all the details of the WWII but im russian...and today is the greatest day as I can say thanks to the veterans who fought in WWII... if they did not win the war today I would not be here, I would not have the family I have now. Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus and other nationalities would always refer to each other as brothers and sisters. And I felt sick knowing that American, British and other leaders would boycott the parade today. On the 65th anniversary number of militant units from Britain, the US and France took part in the parade in Moscow.... This year they boycott the parade in the protest over Russian's intervention in Ukraine. But I felt completely devastated what happened in Ukraine today when one of the politicians ripped the ribbon from one of the veterans and burned it. That was crazy. I have family in Ukraine and I spend number of happy years there... During the WWII there were no Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhstanians, Belarus...we all were as one. For the events like this we all should put our differences aside and celebrate it together but I guess some people etc are not happy that Germany got beaten and believe that they would have a better life today if Germany won... which can be true...But we will never know this...Never!

It's quite sad that the western leaders have chosen to politicise these events and sacrifice the memories of those who died in WW2. They can make their point in other ways. Some of these veterans won't be around for much longer.

IrishCule

Thought it was fairly accepted by everyone these days that the war was won by Russian men and American equipment. In fact it's fairly obvious with any sort of research into it.

Harry Palmr

YanaSoko wrote: »

Im not a historian and would not know all the details of the WWII but im russian...and today is the greatest day as I can say thanks to the veterans who fought in WWII... if they did not win the war today I would not be here, I would not have the family I have now. Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus and other nationalities would always refer to each other as brothers and sisters. And I felt sick knowing that American, British and other leaders would boycott the parade today. On the 65th anniversary number of militant units from Britain, the US and France took part in the parade in Moscow.... This year they boycott the parade in the protest over Russian's intervention in Ukraine. But I felt completely devastated what happened in Ukraine today when one of the politicians ripped the ribbon from one of the veterans and burned it. That was crazy. I have family in Ukraine and I spend number of happy years there... During the WWII there were no Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhstanians, Belarus...we all were as one. For the events like this we all should put our differences aside and celebrate it together but I guess some people etc are not happy that Germany got beaten and believe that they would have a better life today if Germany won... which can be true...But we will never know this...Never!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_(Caucasus)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

enfant terrible

Harry Palmr wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_(Caucasus)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Disgusting

Irish Praetorian

Sobko wrote: »

It's quite sad that the western leaders have chosen to politicise these events and sacrifice the memories of those who died in WW2. They can make their point in other ways. Some of these veterans won't be around for much longer.

Right, because nothing says keeping the memory of WW2 apolitical more than decrying your neighbours as a Fascist Neo-Nazi Junta out persecute any Russian they get their hands on.

Harry Palmr

enfant terrible wrote: »

Disgusting

While its true Stalin doesn't exactly get a free pass, the sheer scale of his crimes is still largely unappreciated outside the old Soviet bloc, if people wonder why Ukraine looks west that is why.

gandalf

Sobko wrote: »

It's quite sad that the western leaders have chosen to politicise these events and sacrifice the memories of those who died in WW2. They can make their point in other ways. Some of these veterans won't be around for much longer.

On the flip side it could also be said that it's quite sad that the Russian regime has used the parade to politicise these events with what in effect was military porn for the masses.

pablomakaveli

gandalf wrote: »

On the flip side it could also be said that it's quite sad that the Russian regime has used the parade to politicise these events with what in effect was military porn for the masses.

Compared to say the British commerations which were a more sombre affair which seemed more appropriate.

Sobko

gandalf wrote: »

On the flip side it could also be said that it's quite sad that the Russian regime has used the parade to politicise these events with what in effect was military porn for the masses.

It appears to be a tradition to have these military parades in honour of the military men and women. Not a big fan myself. Still disappointing as it's the second occasion the rest of Europe has decided to make political points that directly slight soviet soldiers who have nothing to do with Putins politics.

Hidalgo

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Anyone name the only 2 democracy's in the world to ever declare war on each other ?

Spain and US of A?????

gandalf

Sobko wrote: »

it's the second occasion the rest of Europe has decided to make political points that directly slight soviet soldiers who have nothing to do with Putins politics.

Have to disagree with you totally here. This parade had everything to do with the Russian Regime. The most talk was about the size of the parade, the fact it had some new Russian military tech on display for the first time. The actual supposed true meaning of the parade was warped and distorted by the military willy waving by the Putin junta.

Even the Ukraine had a far more appropriate and sombre event to mark the day.