Getting more milk into suckler herd

TPF2012 · 06-05-2015 01:30AM #1

Would using a simmental dairy bull, like RICKI from Progressive Genetics be a viable way to breed more milk into your replacements from a continental herd of ch and lm. Considering a LMxFR suckler cow is meant to be a good cow, would the dairy SI (not beef SI, as most available are bringing low milk) bring milk and a better beef characteristic than the FR half from the LMXfr cow?

Bullocks · 06-05-2015 07:00AM

TPF2012 wrote: »

Would using a simmental dairy bull, like RICKI from Progressive Genetics be a viable way to breed more milk into your replacements from a continental herd of ch and lm. Considering a LMxFR suckler cow is meant to be a good cow, would the dairy SI (not beef SI, as most available are bringing low milk) bring milk and a better beef characteristic than the FR half from the LMXfr cow?

I don't know the bull you're talking about but I think it sounds like a good plan . Would it be possible to get sexed semen to improve your chances of getting replacements

raypallas · 06-05-2015 07:54AM

TPF2012 wrote:

Would using a simmental dairy bull, like RICKI from Progressive Genetics be a viable way to breed more milk into your replacements from a continental herd of ch and lm. Considering a LMxFR suckler cow is meant to be a good cow, would the dairy SI (not beef SI, as most available are bringing low milk) bring milk and a better beef characteristic than the FR half from the LMXfr cow?

Upto about two years ago all our cows were from an uncle's freisan herd. A good mix of sim, ch and lim. Almost all brought good milk and easy calvers, with a limousin good bull here we've keep about 15 heifers. Have found them to bring good milk so far. Only thing is now we've had to get another bull to cover these heifers as we still have their father.

onyerbikepat · 06-05-2015 08:39AM

You could try using a shorthorn bull also. This would bring plenty of milk, docility, hardiness, good colouring and all without loosing too much beefiness. Heifers are great sellers too.

Miname · 06-05-2015 10:17AM

There's a limit to the amount of milk you will get without loosing the shape or confirmation. A second generation off one of these cows would be ideal imo. People seem to be gone cracked on Simmental and to be honest I've kinda gone off them as a cow even though I still keep a few purebred.

Limestone Cowboy · 06-05-2015 11:23AM

Miname wrote: »

There's a limit to the amount of milk you will get without loosing the shape or confirmation. A second generation off one of these cows would be ideal imo. People seem to be gone cracked on Simmental and to be honest I've kinda gone off them as a cow even though I still keep a few purebred.

Agreed and a lot might disagree with me but there's a limit on the amount of milk you would want in a suckler cow too unless your going to double suck them. Had some very milky cows here back over the years, whiteheads from the dairy herd and the older type sims that were very milky and they were all mastitis magnets with one calf sucking them. Have lims off those cows now mostly and they are ideal, plenty of milk and shape in the calves and no mastitis in any of them yet.

TPF2012 · 06-05-2015 12:50PM

We have some Sim cows here, with HKG as sire and they have a great bag of milk. Some of our CH and LM cows have nothing in comparison, but what do people think of the beef simmetals in PG ai, will they bring an improvement in replacements milk? Have a few HCA heifers coming through now this year and next, will be interesting to see if his high milk numbers come through?

Genghis Cant · 06-05-2015 02:12PM

TPF2012 wrote: »

We have some Sim cows here, with HKG as sire and they have a great bag of milk. Some of our CH and LM cows have nothing in comparison,

I'd judge a cow on her ability to breed and rear her calf rather than how he elder looks. We'd have cows that don't look milky that do a super job on a calf.
I do see your point though. it's a slippy slope, you can easily end up with replacements that wouldn't colour your tea if you don't pay attention to retaining milk.

onyerbikepat · 06-05-2015 02:33PM

I noticed that a lot of cows do come on a good bit for milk on their second or third calf. I would agree on judging the performance of the calf as to how milk the cow has. Some cows with small udders can have more than enough milk.

onyerbikepat · 06-05-2015 03:17PM

Come to think of it, my 3 wildest cows are all simmental.:D

Mad4simmental · 06-05-2015 04:31PM

Ahh pat don't give them a bad name like that :-)

All of our first calvers you could grab a stool and milk them in the field their that quit. Bought off farm and only seen a trailer the day they landed home I suppose that helps.

Agree above about cows that look as they don't have much milk having plenty.

GFY would be one of my favorite sim bulls, both from a terminal & a methernal side. I have a few calved heifers and maidens of his and they are crackers.

TPF2012 · 06-05-2015 05:03PM

That's probably true about cows with small udders having enough milk. Have a CHxBB cow that shows a small udder but her calves are always at least 350kg at 12 months, without getting any meal, although would good growth genetics in calf account for that.
GFY has great figures Mad4. Why has he only 2 stars for terminal when he has high stars for conformation and weight across all breeds?
And what SI bulls out of Progressive Genetics do you like, Mad4? We used alot of APZ last year but his figures have gone well back.

onyerbikepat · 06-05-2015 05:34PM

TPF2012 wrote: »

... GFY has great figures Mad4. Why has he only 2 stars for terminal when he has high stars for conformation and weight across all breeds? ....

Calving difficulty of 9%, that's why.

TPF2012 · 06-05-2015 06:06PM

9% calving difficulty is high for a Simmental ,maybe? But most CH are around that figure and all BB are above it. At what % does it begin to negatively affect the terminal star rating? Is calving difficulty, considered more in terminal or maternal stars?

Our SI cows would be the quietest in the herd.

Farmer Pudsey · 06-05-2015 06:35PM

TPF2012 wrote: »

That's probably true about cows with small udders having enough milk. Have a CHxBB cow that shows a small udder but her calves are always at least 350kg at 12 months, without getting any meal, although would good growth genetics in calf account for that.
GFY has great figures Mad4. Why has he only 2 stars for terminal when he has high stars for conformation and weight across all breeds?
And what SI bulls out of Progressive Genetics do you like, Mad4? We used alot of APZ last year but his figures have gone well back.

Would not consider 350 kgs great at 12 months for a suckler calf. If calf weight 45kgs at birth that is only 0.8kgs /day. I have seen Fresians at that weight at 12 months. IMO a suckler calf should be 400kgs+ at 12 months to justify the cow.

See lots of lads having calves 250ish kgs on October/November. Hard to justify a suckler cow at low calf weights.

TPF2012 · 06-05-2015 07:10PM

350kg probably isn't a great weight at 12 months and higher weights can be achieved. But what concentrates are required to push a calf to the higher weights. I'm happy achieving 350kg without any concentrate feed cost, achieved on milk, grass and medium quality silage. I know prices were good last month and might not be there every year but I sold 5 weanlings at 10-11 months age, average weight 335kg, average price 990euros. I estimate it costs me approx e300 to keep a cow for the year, and that probably an over-estimation.

onyerbikepat · 06-05-2015 07:14PM

How do you keep a suckler cow for €300? How do your costs break down?

TPF2012 · 06-05-2015 07:31PM

Low stocking rate, low inputs, minimum fertiliser, concentrates, machinery. The 300 euro would be variable costs. I know the farm is not realising its potential but it works for what it is at the minute.

Bales= 1700
Fertiliser= 800
Vet = 750
AI = 600
Diesel = 300
Beef nuts = 300

Total = 4450
4450/15 = 297 euros/cow.

White Clover · 06-05-2015 08:34PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Would not consider 350 kgs great at 12 months for a suckler calf. If calf weight 45kgs at birth that is only 0.8kgs /day. I have seen Fresians at that weight at 12 months. IMO a suckler calf should be 400kgs+ at 12 months to justify the cow.

See lots of lads having calves 250ish kgs on October/November. Hard to justify a suckler cow at low calf weights.

+1
350 kgs is very poor weight for a suckled animal at 12 months

Mad4simmental · 06-05-2015 09:20PM

TPF2012 wrote: »

And what SI bulls out of Progressive Genetics do you like, Mad4? We used alot of APZ last year but his figures have gone well back.

APZ is a nice looking bull, I don't think AYX heifers are that good for milk from what iv been told. I don't think they have a good selection of sims.

Anyone ever use Planet As12?? His figures are not grate but he must be there for sum reason??

The Real Elmer Fudd · 06-05-2015 10:59PM

TPF2012 wrote: »

Would using a simmental dairy bull, like RICKI from Progressive Genetics be a viable way to breed more milk into your replacements from a continental herd of ch and lm. Considering a LMxFR suckler cow is meant to be a good cow, would the dairy SI (not beef SI, as most available are bringing low milk) bring milk and a better beef characteristic than the FR half from the LMXfr cow?

I have a few Simmental dairy heifers - fleckvieh. Calved a few last year at 24 months and a few more this year at 24 months. My long term plan is to keep every heifer calf I get from these as replacements. Easy calved,very docile, plenty of milk and good confirmation. I've only crossed them with lim, AA and one to blonde. All nice calves so far. 1st pic below of 24 month old heifer few days before calving and 2nd with her AA BULL calf

Genghis Cant · 06-05-2015 10:59PM

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Anyone ever use Planet As12?? His figures are not grate but he must be there for sum reason??

Is he still available? For some reason I thought he was gone.

Mad4simmental · 07-05-2015 12:07AM

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Is he still available? For some reason I thought he was gone.

You could be right he as still on the catalog. You ever try him?

Mad4simmental · 07-05-2015 12:09AM

Nice stock Elmer. Looks like you didn't loose to much bone or shape. Really nice looking bag on her.

TPF2012 · 07-05-2015 12:16AM

The Real Elmer Fudd wrote: »

I have a few Simmental dairy heifers - fleckvieh. Calved a few last year at 24 months and a few more this year at 24 months. My long term plan is to keep every heifer calf I get from these as replacements. Easy calved,very docile, plenty of milk and good confirmation. I've only crossed them with lim, AA and one to blonde. All nice calves so far. 1st pic below of 24 month old heifer few days before calving and 2nd with her AA BULL calf

Nice animals Elmer. So did you buy that heifer or breed her yourself, are they fullbred fleckvieh. From what I understand the fleckvieh breed was established from the Simmental breed, a 100 years ago???
I think they would make perfect replacements with all the chararteristics you listed.

Genghis Cant · 07-05-2015 12:29AM

Mad4simmental wrote: »

You could be right he as still on the catalog. You ever try him?

Never used him.
The Simm we used the most was Newry KFY, but he's gone now. Decent bull he was too.

tanko · 07-05-2015 12:32AM

Lisnacran Sunnyboy from Bova is the top ranked Sim bull for maternal and terminal. Has anyone used him?

The Real Elmer Fudd · 07-05-2015 09:45AM

TPF2012 wrote: »

Nice animals Elmer. So did you buy that heifer or breed her yourself, are they fullbred fleckvieh. From what I understand the fleckvieh breed was established from the Simmental breed, a 100 years ago???
I think they would make perfect replacements with all the chararteristics you listed.

They are supposed to be full bred fleckvieh. I bought them as calves and reared them. I'm happy with them so far. Pic below of few of them in calf at about 18 months old

Future Farmer · 07-05-2015 01:11PM

The real question is how much milk should you aim for?

Is a Fleckvieh going to bring too much milk?

The two top beef breeds for milk must be Salers or Shorthorn surely.

I'd probably be more inclined to buy HEx replacements from the dairy herd, because your suckler calves more should be worth more.

If OP fed calves on a bit, the feeding pays for itself.

blue5000 · 07-05-2015 03:34PM

Mad4simmental wrote: »

APZ is a nice looking bull, I don't think AYX heifers are that good for milk from what iv been told. I don't think they have a good selection of sims.

Anyone ever use Planet As12?? His figures are not grate but he must be there for sum reason??

APZ might be a nice looking bull but his latest icbf figures are a sick joke, ai co pushed him fairly hard 2-3 yrs ago
https://webapp.icbf.com/bull-search/view/716646098

TPF2012 · 07-05-2015 07:26PM

Future Farmer wrote: »

If OP fed calves on a bit, the feeding pays for itself.

What sort of feeding is required to push calves on? Say for a calf that will be 350kg at 12 months without concentrates, what volume of concentrate and what time frame is necessary to achieve a higher weight, that is financially prudent? What are the costs involved and the expected return?

Getting more milk into suckler herd

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