Getting more milk into suckler herd

TPF2012

Would using a simmental dairy bull, like RICKI from Progressive Genetics be a viable way to breed more milk into your replacements from a continental herd of ch and lm. Considering a LMxFR suckler cow is meant to be a good cow, would the dairy SI (not beef SI, as most available are bringing low milk) bring milk and a better beef characteristic than the FR half from the LMXfr cow?

Bullocks

TPF2012 wrote: »

Would using a simmental dairy bull, like RICKI from Progressive Genetics be a viable way to breed more milk into your replacements from a continental herd of ch and lm. Considering a LMxFR suckler cow is meant to be a good cow, would the dairy SI (not beef SI, as most available are bringing low milk) bring milk and a better beef characteristic than the FR half from the LMXfr cow?

I don't know the bull you're talking about but I think it sounds like a good plan . Would it be possible to get sexed semen to improve your chances of getting replacements

raypallas

TPF2012 wrote:

Would using a simmental dairy bull, like RICKI from Progressive Genetics be a viable way to breed more milk into your replacements from a continental herd of ch and lm. Considering a LMxFR suckler cow is meant to be a good cow, would the dairy SI (not beef SI, as most available are bringing low milk) bring milk and a better beef characteristic than the FR half from the LMXfr cow?

Upto about two years ago all our cows were from an uncle's freisan herd. A good mix of sim, ch and lim. Almost all brought good milk and easy calvers, with a limousin good bull here we've keep about 15 heifers. Have found them to bring good milk so far. Only thing is now we've had to get another bull to cover these heifers as we still have their father.

onyerbikepat

You could try using a shorthorn bull also. This would bring plenty of milk, docility, hardiness, good colouring and all without loosing too much beefiness. Heifers are great sellers too.

Miname

There's a limit to the amount of milk you will get without loosing the shape or confirmation. A second generation off one of these cows would be ideal imo. People seem to be gone cracked on Simmental and to be honest I've kinda gone off them as a cow even though I still keep a few purebred.

Limestone Cowboy

Miname wrote: »

There's a limit to the amount of milk you will get without loosing the shape or confirmation. A second generation off one of these cows would be ideal imo. People seem to be gone cracked on Simmental and to be honest I've kinda gone off them as a cow even though I still keep a few purebred.

Agreed and a lot might disagree with me but there's a limit on the amount of milk you would want in a suckler cow too unless your going to double suck them. Had some very milky cows here back over the years, whiteheads from the dairy herd and the older type sims that were very milky and they were all mastitis magnets with one calf sucking them. Have lims off those cows now mostly and they are ideal, plenty of milk and shape in the calves and no mastitis in any of them yet.

TPF2012

We have some Sim cows here, with HKG as sire and they have a great bag of milk. Some of our CH and LM cows have nothing in comparison, but what do people think of the beef simmetals in PG ai, will they bring an improvement in replacements milk? Have a few HCA heifers coming through now this year and next, will be interesting to see if his high milk numbers come through?

Genghis Cant

TPF2012 wrote: »

We have some Sim cows here, with HKG as sire and they have a great bag of milk. Some of our CH and LM cows have nothing in comparison,

I'd judge a cow on her ability to breed and rear her calf rather than how he elder looks. We'd have cows that don't look milky that do a super job on a calf.
I do see your point though. it's a slippy slope, you can easily end up with replacements that wouldn't colour your tea if you don't pay attention to retaining milk.

onyerbikepat

I noticed that a lot of cows do come on a good bit for milk on their second or third calf. I would agree on judging the performance of the calf as to how milk the cow has. Some cows with small udders can have more than enough milk.

onyerbikepat

Come to think of it, my 3 wildest cows are all simmental.:D

Mad4simmental

Ahh pat don't give them a bad name like that :-)

All of our first calvers you could grab a stool and milk them in the field their that quit. Bought off farm and only seen a trailer the day they landed home I suppose that helps.

Agree above about cows that look as they don't have much milk having plenty.

GFY would be one of my favorite sim bulls, both from a terminal & a methernal side. I have a few calved heifers and maidens of his and they are crackers.

TPF2012

That's probably true about cows with small udders having enough milk. Have a CHxBB cow that shows a small udder but her calves are always at least 350kg at 12 months, without getting any meal, although would good growth genetics in calf account for that.
GFY has great figures Mad4. Why has he only 2 stars for terminal when he has high stars for conformation and weight across all breeds?
And what SI bulls out of Progressive Genetics do you like, Mad4? We used alot of APZ last year but his figures have gone well back.

onyerbikepat

TPF2012 wrote: »

... GFY has great figures Mad4. Why has he only 2 stars for terminal when he has high stars for conformation and weight across all breeds? ....

Calving difficulty of 9%, that's why.

TPF2012

9% calving difficulty is high for a Simmental ,maybe? But most CH are around that figure and all BB are above it. At what % does it begin to negatively affect the terminal star rating? Is calving difficulty, considered more in terminal or maternal stars?

Our SI cows would be the quietest in the herd.

Farmer Pudsey

TPF2012 wrote: »

That's probably true about cows with small udders having enough milk. Have a CHxBB cow that shows a small udder but her calves are always at least 350kg at 12 months, without getting any meal, although would good growth genetics in calf account for that.
GFY has great figures Mad4. Why has he only 2 stars for terminal when he has high stars for conformation and weight across all breeds?
And what SI bulls out of Progressive Genetics do you like, Mad4? We used alot of APZ last year but his figures have gone well back.

Would not consider 350 kgs great at 12 months for a suckler calf. If calf weight 45kgs at birth that is only 0.8kgs /day. I have seen Fresians at that weight at 12 months. IMO a suckler calf should be 400kgs+ at 12 months to justify the cow.

See lots of lads having calves 250ish kgs on October/November. Hard to justify a suckler cow at low calf weights.

TPF2012

350kg probably isn't a great weight at 12 months and higher weights can be achieved. But what concentrates are required to push a calf to the higher weights. I'm happy achieving 350kg without any concentrate feed cost, achieved on milk, grass and medium quality silage. I know prices were good last month and might not be there every year but I sold 5 weanlings at 10-11 months age, average weight 335kg, average price 990euros. I estimate it costs me approx e300 to keep a cow for the year, and that probably an over-estimation.

onyerbikepat

How do you keep a suckler cow for €300? How do your costs break down?

TPF2012

Low stocking rate, low inputs, minimum fertiliser, concentrates, machinery. The 300 euro would be variable costs. I know the farm is not realising its potential but it works for what it is at the minute.

Bales= 1700
Fertiliser= 800
Vet = 750
AI = 600
Diesel = 300
Beef nuts = 300

Total = 4450
4450/15 = 297 euros/cow.

White Clover

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Would not consider 350 kgs great at 12 months for a suckler calf. If calf weight 45kgs at birth that is only 0.8kgs /day. I have seen Fresians at that weight at 12 months. IMO a suckler calf should be 400kgs+ at 12 months to justify the cow.

See lots of lads having calves 250ish kgs on October/November. Hard to justify a suckler cow at low calf weights.

+1
350 kgs is very poor weight for a suckled animal at 12 months

Mad4simmental

TPF2012 wrote: »

And what SI bulls out of Progressive Genetics do you like, Mad4? We used alot of APZ last year but his figures have gone well back.

APZ is a nice looking bull, I don't think AYX heifers are that good for milk from what iv been told. I don't think they have a good selection of sims.

Anyone ever use Planet As12?? His figures are not grate but he must be there for sum reason??

The Real Elmer Fudd

TPF2012 wrote: »

Would using a simmental dairy bull, like RICKI from Progressive Genetics be a viable way to breed more milk into your replacements from a continental herd of ch and lm. Considering a LMxFR suckler cow is meant to be a good cow, would the dairy SI (not beef SI, as most available are bringing low milk) bring milk and a better beef characteristic than the FR half from the LMXfr cow?

I have a few Simmental dairy heifers - fleckvieh. Calved a few last year at 24 months and a few more this year at 24 months. My long term plan is to keep every heifer calf I get from these as replacements. Easy calved,very docile, plenty of milk and good confirmation. I've only crossed them with lim, AA and one to blonde. All nice calves so far. 1st pic below of 24 month old heifer few days before calving and 2nd with her AA BULL calf

Genghis Cant

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Anyone ever use Planet As12?? His figures are not grate but he must be there for sum reason??

Is he still available? For some reason I thought he was gone.

Mad4simmental

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Is he still available? For some reason I thought he was gone.

You could be right he as still on the catalog. You ever try him?

Mad4simmental

Nice stock Elmer. Looks like you didn't loose to much bone or shape. Really nice looking bag on her.

TPF2012

The Real Elmer Fudd wrote: »

I have a few Simmental dairy heifers - fleckvieh. Calved a few last year at 24 months and a few more this year at 24 months. My long term plan is to keep every heifer calf I get from these as replacements. Easy calved,very docile, plenty of milk and good confirmation. I've only crossed them with lim, AA and one to blonde. All nice calves so far. 1st pic below of 24 month old heifer few days before calving and 2nd with her AA BULL calf

Nice animals Elmer. So did you buy that heifer or breed her yourself, are they fullbred fleckvieh. From what I understand the fleckvieh breed was established from the Simmental breed, a 100 years ago???
I think they would make perfect replacements with all the chararteristics you listed.

Genghis Cant

Mad4simmental wrote: »

You could be right he as still on the catalog. You ever try him?

Never used him.
The Simm we used the most was Newry KFY, but he's gone now. Decent bull he was too.

tanko

Lisnacran Sunnyboy from Bova is the top ranked Sim bull for maternal and terminal. Has anyone used him?

The Real Elmer Fudd

TPF2012 wrote: »

Nice animals Elmer. So did you buy that heifer or breed her yourself, are they fullbred fleckvieh. From what I understand the fleckvieh breed was established from the Simmental breed, a 100 years ago???
I think they would make perfect replacements with all the chararteristics you listed.

They are supposed to be full bred fleckvieh. I bought them as calves and reared them. I'm happy with them so far. Pic below of few of them in calf at about 18 months old

Future Farmer

The real question is how much milk should you aim for?

Is a Fleckvieh going to bring too much milk?

The two top beef breeds for milk must be Salers or Shorthorn surely.

I'd probably be more inclined to buy HEx replacements from the dairy herd, because your suckler calves more should be worth more.

If OP fed calves on a bit, the feeding pays for itself.

blue5000

Mad4simmental wrote: »

APZ is a nice looking bull, I don't think AYX heifers are that good for milk from what iv been told. I don't think they have a good selection of sims.

Anyone ever use Planet As12?? His figures are not grate but he must be there for sum reason??

APZ might be a nice looking bull but his latest icbf figures are a sick joke, ai co pushed him fairly hard 2-3 yrs ago
https://webapp.icbf.com/bull-search/view/716646098

TPF2012

Future Farmer wrote: »

If OP fed calves on a bit, the feeding pays for itself.

What sort of feeding is required to push calves on? Say for a calf that will be 350kg at 12 months without concentrates, what volume of concentrate and what time frame is necessary to achieve a higher weight, that is financially prudent? What are the costs involved and the expected return?

The Real Elmer Fudd

Future Farmer wrote: »

The real question is how much milk should you aim for?

Is a Fleckvieh going to bring too much milk?

The two top beef breeds for milk must be Salers or Shorthorn surely.

I'd probably be more inclined to buy HEx replacements from the dairy herd, because your suckler calves more should be worth more.

If OP fed calves on a bit, the feeding pays for itself.

So far the fleckvieh have shown no problems on the milk side. Good tight high elders, and I've had no scour problems or mastitis either but I'm dealing with young animals 1st Calvers at 24 months and 2nd Calvers at 36 months. I could run into problems as they develop into mature cows. But like I said it's really heifer calves off these that are my aim. I do agree though that to much milk in sucklers can be a problem.

Personally I just can't warm to shorthorns. I know for many reasons they are a great breed but it's just my personal preference.

Saler on the other are a breed that are getting my attention. Saw a few cows at the ploughing and thought they were exceptional animals. Temperament for me is the only issue. I just don't have the time to deal with flighty animals.

Don't agree with you that HEx from Dairy are a better animal. I feel the sim will throw better shape, frame and enough milk plus better markings. We all know that markings count for nothing when the animal is on the hook but when selling weanlings it does seem to matter to a lot of buyers.

I don't have any problems getting calves to 350kgs at 7 to 8 months on milk and plenty of good grass but I do agree that they could do with a bit of meal. It's something I intend to do in the near future but I just haven't got things set up in the right way to give them meal at the minute.

High bike

The Real Elmer Fudd wrote: »

They are supposed to be full bred fleckvieh. I bought them as calves and reared them. I'm happy with them so far. Pic below of few of them in calf at about 18 months old

you have 3 real nice heifers there,could pass for Sim no problem

onyerbikepat

blue5000 wrote: »

APZ might be a nice looking bull but his latest icbf figures are a sick joke, ai co pushed him fairly hard 2-3 yrs ago
https://webapp.icbf.com/bull-search/view/716646098

APZ is not proven yet. He has only one daughter on the 'Milk' and 'daughters calving interval' figures. He does have 189 daughters though for 'Maternal calving difficulty' and in the bottom 1% of the breed. I have 2 calves by him and I don't consider them narrow at the hips. Hard to know really.

Sheep breeder

elmer
wondering did you buy the heifers from wicklow cattle company,
they brought in heifers from austria and germany and were nice stock.

Miname

onyerbikepat wrote: »

APZ is not proven yet. He has only one daughter on the 'Milk' and 'daughters calving interval' figures. He does have 189 daughters though for 'Maternal calving difficulty' and in the bottom 1% of the breed. I have 2 calves by him and I don't consider them narrow at the hips. Hard to know really.

I've an in calf heifer and a heifer calf by apz and while they wouldn't be overly tall they have great width to them, I'd nearly say it was one of his better attributes.

blue5000

His milk figures aren't great either, don't know how icbf do their sums, I bought a bull a month ago and he's after dropping from 4.5 stars to 2.5. This new suckler payment is going to be hard to get if icbf keep re-calculating faster than a fooking satnav after you take a wrong turn.

tanko

Miname wrote: »

I've an in calf heifer and a heifer calf by apz and while they wouldn't be overly tall they have great width to them, I'd nearly say it was one of his better attributes.

APZ won't qualify as a bull to use under the new genomics scheme if his figures don't improve. His bad figures won't help heifers off him either I'd imagine.

Miname

tanko wrote: »

APZ won't qualify as a bull to use under the new genomics scheme if his figures don't improve. His bad figures won't help heifers off him either I'd imagine.

I won't be using him much anyways. I've a 5 star maternal and terminal limo bull here for replacements. The charlaois bull however (which is an excellent bull imo) has ridiculously low figures. 1 star maternal and 2 star terminal. I've my first years weanlings to compare with this autumn and il see whether he pays or not.

The Real Elmer Fudd

Sheep breeder wrote: »

elmer
wondering did you buy the heifers from wicklow cattle company,
they brought in heifers from austria and germany and were nice stock.

Yep that's them. Mine are all of German origins. I'm happy with them so far with the exception of one free Martin. She was cycling every 21 days but wouldn't hold. Got my vet to check her and he said he thought that she was a twin of a bull calf but the bull died and was aborted by the cow as a foetus but had done just enough damage to stop her from reproducing but not enough to stop her from cycling. That the farmer probably wouldn't have known that there was twins at all. So I'm left with a very nice beef heifer which I may have difficulty in killing as she imported. But ya win some ya lose some.

ferger1

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Ahh pat don't give them a bad name like that :-)

All of our first calvers you could grab a stool and milk them in the field their that quit. Bought off farm and only seen a trailer the day they landed home I suppose that helps.

Agree above about cows that look as they don't have much milk having plenty.

GFY would be one of my favorite sim bulls, both from a terminal & a methernal side. I have a few calved heifers and maidens of his and they are crackers.

Hes an impressive looking bull alrite, but do you find it hard to get hes straws. Have ya tried TSO from Celtic...impressive figures too

votuvant

What can cause a bull to drop nearly 100 euro on the replacement index in just one go? Its nuts and so frustrating. It happened to a bull I used on a few cows last autumn ZGH and now again with APZ. I know people will say only use proven bulls but why put figures on these unproven bulls at all then. PG weren't slow to push these two bulls as top maternal bulls and now the calves will likely be a 3* at best

I have one heifer calf off APZ so far and she's shaping up nicely and not narrow at all. I wonder if the calving difficulty figure (and milk figure) is being skewed by only having a few 24mth heifers calving so far and it will improve in the next few years as more come on stream.

A big gripe I have with ICBF is how do they do there sums and do any of them actually know there is more to cattle than sums. Incomplete data is just that so they should be doing more to get a complete picture before putting out these figures and AI companies using them as gospel.

Its seem like the little Britain sketch "computer says no"

onyerbikepat

votuvant wrote: »

What can cause a bull to drop nearly 100 euro on the replacement index in just one go? Its nuts and so frustrating. It happened to a bull I used on a few cows last autumn ZGH and now again with APZ. I know people will say only use proven bulls but why put figures on these unproven bulls at all then. PG weren't slow to push these two bulls as top maternal bulls and now the calves will likely be a 3* at best

I have one heifer calf off APZ so far and she's shaping up nicely and not narrow at all. I wonder if the calving difficulty figure (and milk figure) is being skewed by only having a few 24mth heifers calving so far and it will improve in the next few years as more come on stream.

A big gripe I have with ICBF is how do they do there sums and do any of them actually know there is more to cattle than sums. Incomplete data is just that so they should be doing more to get a complete picture before putting out these figures and AI companies using them as gospel.

Its seem like the little Britain sketch "computer says no"

Ya that seems to be the case alright. APZ is so young that only heifers data can be avilable for Maternal Calving Data.

This requirement of having only 4 & 5 star bulls for the new suckler scheme is nonsense, in fairness. Untill the reliability figures are high, the data is basically worhtless. It will discriminate against new unknown bloodlines. I have always been a big fan of ICBF but you have to take it for what it is. I have PB cows, some of them from 3 generations of top AI sires but their relibility figures are down around 30%.

Mad4simmental

ferger1 wrote: »

Hes an impressive looking bull alrite, but do you find it hard to get hes straws. Have ya tried TSO from Celtic...impressive figures too

Never had to get in his straws I bought in heifers of his last year and calved them and I have maidens with the bull this year.

Tso looks like a nice bull with good pedigree behind him.

ferger1

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Never had to get in his straws I bought in heifers of his last year and calved them and I have maidens with the bull this year.

Tso looks like a nice bull with good pedigree behind him.

Hopefully ill have heifer calfs from him on the ground next spring. Id like try some GFY, but was told you can only get him for pedigree use

The Real Elmer Fudd

TPF2012 wrote: »

Nice animals Elmer. So did you buy that heifer or breed her yourself, are they fullbred fleckvieh. From what I understand the fleckvieh breed was established from the Simmental breed, a 100 years ago???
I think they would make perfect replacements with all the chararteristics you listed.

Fleckvieh 2nd calver at 38 months with MBP Lim bull calf.

patsy_mccabe

Some really nice Shorthorn heifers.

http://www.donedeal.ie/beefcattle-for-sale/3-in-calf-2-and-a-half-year-old-shorthorn-heifers/10571058?offset=5

Bullocks

I really like the look of them aswell , if they were closer I'd be inclined to try and buy them

patsy_mccabe

Bullocks wrote: »

I really like the look of them aswell , if they were closer I'd be inclined to try and buy them

You're not the only one. Cross them to a well proven Maternal Limousin bull then with good docility. You'd be sorted.:cool:

Bullocks

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

You're not the only one. Cross them to a well proven Maternal Limousin bull then with good docility. You'd be sorted.:cool:

I'd need a better reason to travel to Leitrim though ! It's a woegus spin from my house