Planning & Tall Buildings in Dublin

Reuben1210 · 17-04-2015 5:37pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/lack-of-space-and-explosive-rise-in-office-rents-could-lead-to-big-losses-1.2178534

More warnings about lack of large office blocks...

Aard · 17-04-2015 8:43pm

The article clearly states that the funding isn't there for large projects. Who's gonna pay for these tall buildings that people seem to want? The risks are high to build a lot of floorspace (unless there's a tenant from the very start). Each additional storey costs a lot more than the last to build. So for tall buildings costs are high and financing thin.

hfallada · 17-04-2015 8:54pm

Aard wrote: »

The article clearly states that the funding isn't there for large projects. Who's gonna pay for these tall buildings that people seem to want? The risks are high to build a lot of floorspace (unless there's a tenant from the very start). Each additional storey costs a lot more than the last to build. So for tall buildings costs are high and financing thin.

Investment funds will invest in them. With yields on Government bonds being so poor, they will put their money into these projects. They have been buying up most of NAMA properties with yields of 4-6% no problem. Yields on investment properties here are excellent compared to Germany.

You will always fill quality offices in Dublin city. In the last 10 years, IT companies have taken up huge amounts of Dublin office space. They are continuing to expand and come to Ireland. They need office space.

The marginal costs for building taller are lower. Its basic economics. If you buy a plot of land for 10Million with other fees such as taxes, legal fees etc. The taller you build, the lower the initial cost of purchase will be per foot. As long as the sale price is greater than marginal costs, it makes sense to build higher.

If it doesnt make economic sense to build high rise. Why does secondary cities in the US like Portland have skyscapers? These countries dont have the best rents or sale prices. But it still make economic sense to build highrise.

Aard · 17-04-2015 9:02pm

hfallada wrote: »

The marginal costs for building taller are lower. Its basic economics. If you buy a plot of land for 10Million with other fees such as taxes, legal fees etc. The taller you build, the lower the initial cost of purchase will be per foot. As long as the sale price is greater than marginal costs, it makes sense to build higher.

Once you get above a certain height, it does get more expensive to build each extra storey.

monument · 17-04-2015 9:05pm

"High rise redevelopment opportunity" -- https://www.flickr.com/photos/turgidson/17146238786/

hfallada wrote: »

If it doesnt make economic sense to build high rise. Why does secondary cities in the US like Portland have skyscapers?

Secondary to what? Portland is the largest city in the state of Oregon.

Cool Mo D · 17-04-2015 10:04pm

Aard wrote: »

Once you get above a certain height, it does get more expensive to build each extra storey.

The increase in cost per-storey is pretty small if the building is under about 20 storeys though - unless you are trying to build super-tall, the cost to add a floor to a 20 storey building is not much more than adding a floor to a 6 storey building.

There's a paper here where they measure this by looking at how much it cost to construct buildings in Hong Kong that were between 6 and 60 storeys.
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yung_Yau/publication/228267863_Determining_Optimal_Building_Height/links/00b7d5295683529cba000000.pdf

1huge1 · 17-04-2015 11:32pm

Not trying to get sidetracked but why after a certain stage does the costs start getting higher again?

Specific expertise, use of cranes, need for stronger support structures etc?

hfallada · 18-04-2015 10:38am

monument wrote: »

"High rise redevelopment opportunity" -- https://www.flickr.com/photos/turgidson/17146238786/

Secondary to what? Portland is the largest city in the state of Oregon.

I meant to say its a secondary city. Its a city with a population size similar to Dublin. If its economical to have high rise in a city like that, I imagine its economical to have high rise in Dublin

Idbatterim · 23-04-2015 3:31pm

http://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/tech-firms-now-claiming-a-third-of-dublin-cbd-offices-31163532.html

Tech firms now claiming a third of Dublin CBD offices

Technology, media and telecoms firms now occupy more than a third of all office space in central Dublin, as the boom in the sector shows no signs of abating.

According to a new report from Colliers International, some 35pc of office space in the city centre is now dedicated to tech firms.
The boom however has helped push office rents for the sector up sharply - to the point that only London and Stockholm are more expensive among European cities.
Colliers' research shows rents are now the equivalent of between €480 and €530 per square metre in Dublin's central business district. That trails only London's Shoreditch area at €770 to €840 per sq m and Stockholm, where rents for modern office space in the most central areas range between €400-and €580 per sq m.
The rate of rent increases in Dublin shows few signs of slowing either. The shortage of space in the most desirable parts of the city has prompted analysts to forecast office rents here will head past €600 per sq m by the end of this year. The increase in rents will add to worries about Ireland's competitiveness as it tries to attract foreign direct investment.
Colliers credit Dublin's tech expansion to the strength of the Irish economy, which saw GDP grow 5pc in 2014 and is predicted to increase by four per cent in 2015. Total tech office take-up reached 75,000sqm.
Colliers' director of business space in Dublin Paul Finucane commented: "A competitive recruitment environment has emerged and in order for the majority of new entrants to compete with existing operators in securing the best talent, rivalry for the best office space in the city centre as opposed to the suburbs has emerged.
"This resulted in a dramatic increase in rental levels where prime CBD rents increased by 40pc to €530 per sq m during the past 18 months, reflecting the scarcity of prime space available. Currently vacancy rates are estimated at approximately 3pc," he said.
The firm predicts the lack of supply in the CBD is likely to drive an increase in suburban take-up where prime quoting rents also increased but not at the same rate. Suburban rents now stand €270 per sq m in the more sought-after locations.
Colliers EMEA Senior Research Analyst Bruno Berretta said demand was being fuelled by "a combination of newcomers and established occupiers expanding their business operations.
"With a significant demand from the TMT sector, a consequently high proportion of the workforce has been drawn towards the Dublin market, too," he added.
Last year, Facebook leased 11,600 sqm taking its footprint to 23,000 sqm while LinkedIn purchased a site next door to its existing HQ, which is capable of housing approximately 15,800 sqm.
Twitter (which took up 9,300 sqm), Yahoo! (7,000 sqm) and Amazon (6,500 sqm) were also active.
"New entrants arrivals in Dublin include Calypso (up to 150 jobs) Guestlogix (100 jobs), and Sidetrade (90 jobs)," Mr Berretta noted.
Indo Business

markpb · 05-05-2015 11:13am

State agencies, including the National Transport Authority, the HSE and Nama, have urged Dublin City Council to remove restrictions on the construction of high-rise buildings in the city. The agencies have made separate submissions to the council ahead of the drafting of the new Dublin City Development Plan. It will come into force next year and will govern all construction in the city for the following five years.

Then city manager John Tierney had warned councillors against caps on heights because of “severe repercussions for the city’s competitiveness”. However, the plan covered a period where there was little construction activity.

[...]

In its submission on the new plan, the HSE said current height restrictions had had a “negative impact on the delivery of hospital facilities in Dublin city”. In 2012 An Bord Pleanála refused permission for a national children’s hospital at the Mater hospital, largely because of the effect the height of the 74m building would have on the city skyline.

The National Transport Authority’s submission cautions against height restrictions on “brownfield sites” in the city centre. Brownfield sites are vacant or underused lands, of which there are more than 61 hectares in the city centre zoned for commercial or residential development.

Submissions from Nama and the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland also sought flexibility regarding height.

[...]

City councillors will this week consider the submissions at their first development plan meeting. Several councillors have submitted motions cautioning against increased height. In his report to councillors council chief executive Owen Keegan said the current plan “acknowledges the intrinsic quality of Dublin as a low-rise city”. He said it was likely that emerging signs of economic recovery would result in “increased development activity including pressure for higher buildings”.

Irish Times

I'm still lost about what the "intrinsic quality of Dublin as a low-rise city" actually means. I'm absolutely in favour of protecting historic buildings and vistas, I just wonder if there's something else at play here.

Aard · 05-05-2015 12:21pm

Limiting newbuild height in the city centre inflates the price of protected Georgian stock, buildings that can't be significantly extended. Not saying this is the reasoning, but handy for such landowners nonetheless.

Idbatterim · 05-05-2015 12:41pm

if the rubbish 6/7 storey stuff they have on the quays, was built to say 10/11 stories, they could claim that, that negates the need for "high rise" If they have such an issue with it, why dont they simply allow the low rise to become medium rise and then there wouldnt be as great a need for "high rise"...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/state-agencies-seek-end-of-high-rise-restrictions-1.2198735

Godge · 05-05-2015 1:55pm

markpb wrote: »

[url=Irish Times

I'm still lost about what the "intrinsic quality of Dublin as a low-rise city" actually means. I'm absolutely in favour of protecting historic buildings and vistas, I just wonder if there's something else at play here.

It is Owen-Keegan-speak.

Idbatterim · 05-05-2015 6:07pm

I wonder what his opinions on the sprawl, outrageous home prices and the rocketing commercial rents are?

But hey, its all good, once we maintain the non existent sky line we have... Let them live miles out, drive or commute for hours... Once we dont hurt the Georgian buildings feelings :rolleyes:

Aard · 05-05-2015 6:20pm

Worth bearing in mind that Keegan pretty much has to do as councillors instruct. The reason for low-rise in the development plan is due to councillors, not planners/staff.

monument · 05-05-2015 6:36pm

Aard wrote: »

Worth bearing in mind that Keegan pretty much has to do as councillors instruct. The reason for low-rise in the development plan is due to councillors, not planners/staff.

Well said.

Here's some of the views from the last time the height limits were being set...

Council challenged on “anti-social” height limits

Thursday, July 29th, 2010

Dublin City councillors were asked on Tuesday night if they intend to make the city a mausoleum with “anti-socially” low building height limits.
Challenging his fellow councillors on the city’s Draft City Development Plan, Cllr Bill Tormey (FG), also asked if they wanted to make Dublin a mausoleum.

After making similar comments at a Dublin City Council meeting, Tormey wrote yesterday: “Do [councillors] intend to fossilise the city into a theme park for perambulating geriatrics post work and the hustle and bustle of productive life? Make Dublin a mausoleum for the Ulysses Era where James Joyce could wander around his theme park forever.”

The council voted for a normal maximum height of six storeys for residential and seven storeys for offices (19m – 28m) in the inner city, and four storeys (13m – 16m) for both offices and residential in the outer city.

Areas within 500m from Dart, Metro North and other train stations will be defined as rail hubs. The heights for these areas will be set at six storeys (19m – 24m) for both offices and residential.

Mid-rise is to be set as up to 16 storeys for residential and 12 storeys for offices, or up to 50m. The mid-rise areas are Phibsborough, Grangegorman, the Digital Hub, the North Fringe, Clonshaugh Industrial Estate, Ballymun, Pelletstown, Park West, Cherry Orchard and the Naas Road. Above 50m is defined as high-rise, includes an area in the Docklands, areas around Connolly and Heuston stations, and George’s Quay.

However, all areas defined as mid or high rise are to remain low rise until a Local Area Plan is put in place which will determine the maximum height of buildings. The process of Local Area Plans is slow with heavy influence from councillors.

Voting on what was seen as a comprise plan on heights, 31 councillors voted for the proposals, 12 against and one abstained.

Meanwhile, the majority of councillors voted against a motion which wanted the rail hub heights to be reduced from six to five storeys.

Cllr Brid Smith (People Before Profit Alliance) said the development plan should be about people, not buildings. Cllr Deirdre Heney (FF) claimed that people think that seven storeys is high rise.

Heney said, “We are living in a low rise city. Nobody at any residents’ association meeting I have ever attended consider seven storeys low rise, they consider seven storeys high rise. And, whether the city manager likes it or not, the people in Dublin do not want to live in a high rise city. People in Dublin like low rise.”

She said she has serious concern over proposals for 16 storeys at areas like the North Fringe and Clonshaugh Industrial Estate.

Meanwhile, Cllr Vincent Jackson (Independent) accused some councillors of being parochial, and not strategic for Dublin.

Cllr Dessie John Ellis (Sinn Fein) noted that heights have hardly changed in 100 years, and that Georgian buildings in the inner city are five storeys high. Ellis said, “We have only gone up one and two storeys effectively in over 100 years. It’s not a huge leap by any stretch of the imagination.”

Cllr Andrew Montague (Labour) said people commuting long distances into Dublin is not the future. He added that a real debate about quality is being missed due to focus on height.

Tormey said as a councillor he is a developer and wants to encourage industry, jobs and high quality of living. He says his objective is to advocate for the whole country not for a narrow sectional interest.

He added: “Are we happy to formulate an anti-social plan to condemn citizens to hours of commuting per day at huge expense and waste of personal and family time? Do we want the suburbs to be Navan, Mullingar, Drogheda and Dundalk? None of these people has any direct influence on our selfish, closed, insular decisions because they do not have a vote in elections or have a voice in residents’
associations.”

All parts of the draft development plan voted on which differ from the previous version will be put out for a second round of public consultation.
The video record of the debate can currently be found dublincity.public-i.tv, look under recent webcasts and titled “Special Meeting of City Council – Draft Dublin City Development Plan 2011 – 2017 – Tuesday 27th July 2010” and then click on index point “17.6 Building Height in a Sustainable City.”

Re the bits I've bolded, which is worse: "they consider seven storeys high rise" or concern over proposals for 16 storeys at new development areas like the North Fringe and Clonshaugh Industrial Estate?

It's also worth saying that some wanted rail hub heights to be reduced from six to five storeys even after the definition of a rail hub was reduced from a radius of 1km to a radius of 500m from a train/metro station.

Note: I'm the author and full copyright holder of the above news report and I'm ok with it being posted in full here on boards.ie as above.

Idbatterim · 05-05-2015 6:43pm

Heney said, “We are living in a low rise city. Nobody at any residents’ association meeting I have ever attended consider seven storeys low rise, they consider seven storeys high rise. And, whether the city manager likes it or not, the people in Dublin do not want to live in a high rise city. People in Dublin like low rise.”

what total and utter rubbish, it would be good to have the option, if I dont want to live in a high rise, I will choose not to. I'd imagine a huge amount of people would love to live in a slick high rise in the docklands with great views... The thousands employed in all the I.T firms in the docklands for a start.

(Sinn Fein) noted that heights have hardly changed in 100 years, and that Georgian buildings in the inner city are five storeys high. Ellis said, “We have only gone up one and two storeys effectively in over 100 years. It’s not a huge leap by any stretch of the imagination.”

I made this point on this thread a while ago.

Worth bearing in mind that Keegan pretty much has to do as councillors instruct. The reason for low-rise in the development plan is due to councillors, not planners/staff.

Are the councillors voted in?

monument · 05-05-2015 6:50pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Are the councillors voted in?

Yes, at the local elections, last happened last year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_local_elections,_2014

Aard · 05-05-2015 6:50pm

Seems like one of the major stumbling blocks, trivial though it sounds, is simply defining what is and isn't low/med/high rise!

monument · 05-05-2015 6:54pm

For anybody interested: A council meeting on the development plan is happening now and being webcasted now: http://www.dublincity.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/175089

I'm not sure if there will be much or any detail on heights.

Schadenfreudia · 05-05-2015 7:23pm

Aard wrote: »

Worth bearing in mind that Keegan pretty much has to do as councillors instruct. The reason for low-rise in the development plan is due to councillors, not planners/staff.

Too true - its amazing how many people in the vast sprawling semi-D suburbs still regard apartment blocks higher that two stories as some sort of abomination! "Bad planning" is anything that interrupts the semi-d landscape.

But "experts" like Frank McDonald, who presented completely unrealistic pictures of European cities, did much to promote tall-phobic attitudes before his late epiphany.

The centres of Amsterdam, Barcelona and other old European cities were cited in order to condemn a host of proposals in Dublin far from the Georgian core - even though those European cores are surrounded by massive motorway and ring-road networks, riddled with subways and have clusters of skyscrapers a short hop from the centres.

monument · 18-05-2015 6:45pm

Anybody have a link or reference number to the planning files for Kennedy Wilson's Capital Dock?

I find the city council's planning website near to impossible to search.

Peregrine · 18-05-2015 7:08pm

monument wrote: »

Anybody have a link or reference number to the planning files for Kennedy Wilson's Capital Dock?

I find the city council's planning website near to impossible to search.

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=DSDZ2546/15&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2511924%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=3027265%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2511924%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

monument · 18-05-2015 7:16pm

Nim wrote: »

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=DSDZ2546/15&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2511924%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=3027265%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2511924%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

Thanks.

Figured out what was wrong too -- I was searching the location name with an apostrophe.

Peregrine · 18-05-2015 7:19pm

It's really annoying. And the map search is no good too. It's filled with old applications, applications covering a whole site etc.

I just search for DSDZ in the reference criteria and see what's new.

Idbatterim · 18-05-2015 7:23pm

with alto vetro, montevetro, the millenium tower and the britain quay site, along with bolands mill, there will be a nice cluster of medium rise...

Reuben1210 · 18-05-2015 7:51pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

with alto vetro, montevetro, the millenium tower and the britain quay site, along with bolands mill, there will be a nice cluster of medium rise...

That's true, and it's a great improvement, but I can't help but feeling that the capital docks site is being under-developed, given it's previous permission for height of 100-120m...
However, better than nothing I suppose.

Does anyone know if crosbie has been making any sounds about ressurrecting the watchtower, considering he built the whole underground part for tens of millions?

Reuben1210 · 11-07-2015 8:15pm

I don't know what they even changed in this reviewed version that got the go-ahead a week ago?

http://www.irishbuildingmagazine.ie/2015/07/03/e150m-plan-for-bolands-mills-redevelopment-gets-the-green-light-from-dublin-city-council/

Peregrine · 12-07-2015 7:14pm

Reuben1210 wrote: »

I don't know what they even changed in this reviewed version that got the go-ahead a week ago?

http://www.irishbuildingmagazine.ie/2015/07/03/e150m-plan-for-bolands-mills-redevelopment-gets-the-green-light-from-dublin-city-council/

I like the first view but not the second.

The balconies in the residential building are now 'winter gardens' with glass panels that slide open.

Oh and they changed the name.

Schadenfreudia · 12-07-2015 8:05pm

Nim wrote: »

I like the first view but not the second.

Indeed. Image how vastly better it would look if the two outer buildings were half the height and the middle one twice the height.

But that altitude would cause the Dublin cognoscenti fainting fits....

Planning & Tall Buildings in Dublin

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