How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

smash · 05-05-2015 08:17AM

frostyjacks wrote: »

Do you think it's right to deny children a mother and a father?

This is a non argument. Plenty of children live in an environment where there's no father or mother present. This referendum will not change that in any way.

05-05-2015 08:19AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Is anyone else actually finding it a bit depressing and just wearing/tiring hearing all this negativity about gay people?

As much as I want to counter every argument, it's definitely having an impact on me. I can see myself being a ball of stress by 22nd!

I have felt some of the impact too I have to admit. I am over 11 years now in an MFF relationship - and we have always been relatively subtle in everything. We never over thought anything in that time - but at the same time we were never really the PDA type or anything like that either to wave it in peoples faces.

But at the beginning we still got very negative reactions for some people if they copped our dynamic. And on some occasions - thankfully not many in that time - I had to defend myself physically from some drunkard in a pub who felt Chivalry would be restored to the world if my blood specifically was spilled on the pub floor.

But I noticed over that time a general calming down and "live and let live" or "It has nothing to do with me so why be bothered by it" attitude develop in the country. On the rare occasions people cop what our relationship is - they frankly don't care. The atmosphere simply improved slowly but very noticeably in that period.

Now I think I am seeing some of the old ways coming back. The negativity of the "no side" - and the negativity that "no side" has manufactured on behalf of the "yes side" quite effectively - by fostering this nonsense notion that the "no side" are being constantly silenced or called bigots or homophobes or worse even when they are not - has certainly flared up the old hostilities and hatreds again somewhat and I am noticing a regression in the atmosphere.

And the girlfriends are mostly immune to the negativity targeted at gay people - but I feel they can not be entirely unaffected by having a vocal large minority in our society go on and on about the evils and failures of their love and affection for each other. No one is emotionally immune to the effects of walking anywhere with friends - seeing something negative that applies to you in some way - and knowing your friends see it too - and having to walk on pretending you either did not see it - or did not care. Resolve and positivity are great things - and very high level in my girlfriends - but they are not immune to being slowly eroded and I will be glad when this election is over before their reserves are at all challenged.

Now perhaps I am just overly sensitive to it because I am hyper-aware of it during the election period - and it might not be as bad as I fear - and perhaps it will all die down quickly and return to the way it was after the election - I try not to be too overly pessimistic or optimistic there - but I can certainly say I understand perfectly where your post is coming from and what motivated you to write it. As with most election campaigns on issues of this sort - sexuality, religion, abortion and many other issues - there will always be large numbers of people who consider the issue without considering the real people with real hearts and emotions and feelings and lives - behind that issue. And that knowledge - at least a bit - lets me not take it _so_ personally some of the time.

Links234 · 05-05-2015 08:19AM

I have to admit something...

I won't be voting

Things have just kinda transpired that I won't be in the country at the time and it was rather unavoidable. I didn't know if I should mention this or keep my mouth shut that I'm going to be absent from a vote that decides my own future in this country, it's a shame, but I decided that I'm not going to keep my absense from the vote a secret out of embarrassment. Instead, I'd ask anyone here who may be on the fence or who wasn't going to vote, would you kindly think of me and cast a yes vote?

smash · 05-05-2015 08:22AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its a bit like the water meter protests......a lot of the anti- water protestors left the protests due to the behaviour of a cohort of activists that turned the whole thing ugly. That kind of behaviour can swing votes and change opinions.

It's completely different. The water charge actually affects numerous people negatively so there are legitimate reasons for people to protest. The equality referendum affects nobody in a negative way.

Penny Tration · 05-05-2015 08:24AM

Links234 wrote: »

I have to admit something...

I won't be voting

Things have just kinda transpired that I won't be in the country at the time and it was rather unavoidable. I didn't know if I should mention this or keep my mouth shut that I'm going to be absent from a vote that decides my own future in this country, it's a shame, but I decided that I'm not going to keep my absense from the vote a secret out of embarrassment. Instead, I'd ask anyone here who may be on the fence or who wasn't going to vote, would you kindly think of me and cast a yes vote?

My sister lives away from Ireland, and decided just last night to come home to vote yes, so there's your missing vote made up

shamrock2004 · 05-05-2015 08:24AM

I'm still undecided. The only doubt in my mind is the adoption thingy. However I have a great deal of ambivalence here. I see how many kids are absolutely dragged up in todays society by parents who dont give a crap about them. Then on the other side I was bullied as a kid in school and worry about how a kid who is raised by a same sex couple would be perceived by other kids. I wish this referendum allowed marriage for same sex couples and it stopped there. Let me say however that I disagree with the absolute disdain shown towards no voters...

Penny Tration · 05-05-2015 08:27AM

shamrock2004 wrote: »

I'm still undecided. The only doubt in my mind is the adoption thingy. However I have a great deal of ambivalence here. I see how many kids are absolutely dragged up in todays society by parents who dont give a crap about them. Then on the other side I was bullied as a kid in school and worry about how a kid who is raised by a same sex couple would be perceived by other kids. I wish this referendum allowed marriage for same sex couples and it stopped there. Let me say however that I disagree with the absolute disdain shown towards no voters...

The referendum DOES stop at marriage. It has literally zero to do with adoption.

Adoption rights are being catered for separately, with or without a yes vote. Same sex couples adopting is already happening and is already totally legal and a separate issue to the marriage referendum.

So tbh, if that's your only concern, you should consider voting yes.

As for the disdain shown towards no voters - we've had gay people called child abusers, be compared to paedophiles, be told their love is wrong, be told they should never be allowed to have children, be told they are not capable of properly raising children - the disdain seems perfectly warranted when you take that into consideration.

05-05-2015 08:34AM

smash wrote: »

It's completely different. The water charge actually affects numerous people negatively so there are legitimate reasons for people to protest. The equality referendum affects nobody in a negative way.

I know but the point I was making is that the behaviour of some protestors turned people ON THEIR OWN SIDE away - or even made the Pro water charges brigade more resolute .....

Sometimes it gets too ugly and some of the harrassment over the weekend has been ugly here too. And I'm not being a victim

;) Everyone is entitled to their opinion without being attacked. It is often based on personal experience. Like it or not that's life.

I'm not dragging this off topic..... I was just trying to make a point..... maybe I used the wrong analogy but I hope you get my drift.

gravehold · 05-05-2015 08:34AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I have felt some of the impact too I have to admit. I am over 11 years now in an MFF relationship

How do you feel that this is being called marriage equality but your relation ship will still not be equal after it and you mff relationship cannot still get married is this really marriage equality. Do all the YES EQUALITY poster rubbing it in your face annoy you?

smash · 05-05-2015 08:35AM

shamrock2004 wrote: »

I'm still undecided. The only doubt in my mind is the adoption thingy.

But that's not what the vote is about. Legislation to allow gay people to adopt will be passed before this vote and will be in effect if this vote passes or not. If you believe that this vote has anything at all to do with children it's because the no side told you so, and that's a lie, and it's why there's so much anger towards the no side.

Penny Tration · 05-05-2015 08:36AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know but the point I was making is that the behaviour of some protestors turned people ON THEIR OWN SIDE away - or even made the Pro water charges brigade more resolute .....

Sometimes it gets too ugly and some of the harrassment over the weekend has been ugly here too. And I'm not being a victim ;) Everyone is entitled to their opinion without being attacked. It is often based on personal experience. Like it or not that's life.

I'm not dragging this off topic..... I was just trying to make a point..... maybe I used the wrong analogy but I hope you get my drift.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, as you say.

Therefore, people are entitled to completely disagree with your opinion.

In an earlier post, you spoke about how two men cannot give a proper father & mother relationship to a child, because neither are mothers.

Should you therefore, by that logic have your kids taken away from you because you're a single mother and cannot provide fatherhood, naturally, because you're a woman?

Your kids shouldn't be taken away from you, but that's how hypocritical your own argument is.

smash · 05-05-2015 08:38AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know but the point I was making is that the behaviour of some protestors turned people ON THEIR OWN SIDE away - or even made the Pro water charges brigade more resolute .....

Sometimes it gets too ugly and some of the harrassment over the weekend has been ugly here too. And I'm not being a victim ;) Everyone is entitled to their opinion without being attacked. It is often based on personal experience. Like it or not that's life.

I'm not dragging this off topic..... I was just trying to make a point..... maybe I used the wrong analogy but I hope you get my drift.

What person experience could possibly want to make you vote against marriage equality? Please enlighten me...

05-05-2015 08:40AM

gravehold wrote: »

How do you feel that this is being called marriage equality but your relation ship will still not be equal after it and you mff relationship cannot still get married is this really marriage equality. Do all the YES EQUALITY poster rubbing it in your face annoy you?

Not at all. I have written about this on a few other threads - and possibly on this one too. I have borrowed the wording a little from another poster - but essentially I think of marriage as an institution that should reflect the requirements of the people in the society where it operates - in a way that is scalable with those requirements.

Given people like me are - at this time - literally statistically non-existent - I see no reason to seek or want marriage modified to accommodate us. Numerically there is no reason to accommodate us - and the effort of doing so will not scale with the requirement until there are MANY more like us. And I do not see that happening soon. I am voting "Yes" in this referendum - as are my partners and all our friends - and we are making a "day out" party day of it and all going together to do it. But if there was ALSO a vote on the same day for marriage for us - Id actually vote "no" on that one.

Even if I did want to get married that is - but even before entering into this relationship "marriage" was never something on my list of priorities. I personally have no interest in it. I do not know many people in relationships like mine in Ireland, but I know some. None of them - like me - see reason to seek or want marriage for >2 people relationships. And most of them have no interest either. I can think of one set of people who are somewhat - wistful - that they can not get married and would _like_ to - but they stoically accept that their relationship precludes it and they are down with that.

shamrock2004 · 05-05-2015 08:51AM

smash wrote: »

But that's not what the vote is about. Legislation to allow gay people to adopt will be passed before this vote and will be in effect if this vote passes or not. If you believe that this vote has anything at all to do with children it's because the no side told you so, and that's a lie, and it's why there's so much anger towards the no side.

I just read up on this. I'll be voting yes so.

Penny Tration · 05-05-2015 09:04AM

shamrock2004 wrote: »

I just read up on this. I'll be voting yes so.

Whatever your thoughts on same sex adoption, marriage, whatever - fair play to you for asking questions, reading up and making an informed choice.

SpaceTime · 05-05-2015 09:13AM

aloyisious wrote: »

If your sexuality (LGBT) is not in line with the religious ethos of a school, the school can refuse to employ you. If you are LGBT and currently in the employ of a school, the school can fire you if you are not in compliance (through being gay) with it's religious ethos.

Great little country we have where teachers have to hide sexuality, marriage breakups, being single parents, their religious beliefs / lack there of etc etc

Bannasidhe · 05-05-2015 09:22AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Great little country we have where teachers have to hide sexuality, marriage breakups, being single parents, their religious beliefs / lack there of etc etc

Don't forget the 'Catholic' hospitals...

Nurses, doctors, radiologists, surgeons, porters, physios, clerical staff.....all can be dismissed for not conforming to RCC ethos...

gravehold · 05-05-2015 09:23AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Not at all. I have written about this on a few other threads - and possibly on this one too. I have borrowed the wording a little from another poster - but essentially I think of marriage as an institution that should reflect the requirements of the people in the society where it operates - in a way that is scalable with those requirements.

Given people like me are - at this time - literally statistically non-existent - I see no reason to seek or want marriage modified to accommodate us. Numerically there is no reason to accommodate us - and the effort of doing so will not scale with the requirement until there are MANY more like us. And I do not see that happening soon. I am voting "Yes" in this referendum - as are my partners and all our friends - and we are making a "day out" party day of it and all going together to do it. But if there was ALSO a vote on the same day for marriage for us - Id actually vote "no" on that one.

Even if I did want to get married that is - but even before entering into this relationship "marriage" was never something on my list of priorities. I personally have no interest in it. I do not know many people in relationships like mine in Ireland, but I know some. None of them - like me - see reason to seek or want marriage for >2 people relationships. And most of them have no interest either. I can think of one set of people who are somewhat - wistful - that they can not get married and would _like_ to - but they stoically accept that their relationship precludes it and they are down with that.

Oh I am voting yes just find the yes equality posters very hypocritical as I know polygamy is very frowned upon by people in lgbt groups. I am voting for YES GAY MARRIAGE not YES EQUALITY. I have huge issues with the slogan they went with as it's not equality as they are pushing

Daith · 05-05-2015 09:24AM

gravehold wrote: »

Oh I am voting yes just find the yes equality posters very hypocritical as I know polygamy is very frowned upon by people in lgbt groups. I am voting for YES GAY MARRIAGE not YES EQUALITY. I have huge issues with the slogan they went with as it's not equality as they are pushing

It's so gay couples are equal to straight couples. Straight couples don't have polygamy so it would still be equal.

P_1 · 05-05-2015 09:28AM

gravehold wrote: »

Oh I am voting yes just find the yes equality posters very hypocritical as I know polygamy is very frowned upon by people in lgbt groups. I am voting for YES GAY MARRIAGE not YES EQUALITY. I have huge issues with the slogan they went with as it's not equality as they are pushing

At present civil marriage is only available to MONOGAMOUS, opposite sex couples, the referendum will make it available to all MONOGAMOUS couples, regardless of gender. If POLYGAMOUS civil marriage was an option for anyone you might have a point, but it's not, so you don't.

Maximus Alexander · 05-05-2015 09:31AM

I got a badge and I'm wearing it. I've never done this before - I feel like some sort of political activist or something.

gravehold · 05-05-2015 09:35AM

Daith wrote: »

It's so gay couples are equal to straight couples. Straight couples don't have polygamy so it would still be equal.

If you are going by that logic a gay man is still allowed marry a woman so is equal under current laws, they should used YES SSM not YES EQUALITY cause this won't bring equality to all adults equal marriage. YES EQUAITY is a slap in the face to people that want to marry to constenting adults

MrWalsh · 05-05-2015 09:39AM

gravehold wrote: »

If you are going by that logic a gay man is still allowed marry a woman so is equal under current laws,

Thats completely disingenuous. Whats the point of marriage being available to between a gay man and a woman as a gay man would have no interest in marrying a woman?

gravehold · 05-05-2015 09:42AM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Thats completely disingenuous. Whats the point of marriage being available to between a gay man and a woman as a gay man would have no interest in marrying a woman?

YES I agree ssm is good but it's not equality of all adults, my issue is the slogan they are using what was wron with YES SSM. Also the bitchyness and bullying of people that are voting no is not nice to see also.

Boom_Bap · 05-05-2015 09:45AM

When it comes to issues like this, I tend to keep my opinion to myself. I don't try to force my opinion and views on the person who is on the fence or opposing. I try to respect that everyone has the right to vote which ever way they see fit or to abstain from voting. Essentially, that is what it's all about.
If you want to vote No, fire ahead champ, if you want to vote Yes, go for it.

But, the older I get, the more deflated I get from the opposing parties, be it in a referendum like this, or in a general election. The propaganda has moved from why some group is better to vote for and what they can offer, to debunking and insulting the opposition. These underhanded tactics have always been around, but now they appear to be the main agenda.

And now in this referendum, they have gotten even murkier.
From this thread alone, you can see the number of posters who have dropped in to say their piece on why they are on the fence, or the anomaly they have in making their decision. These posters (purely my opinion looking in) are probably not politically motivated and rely on what they have in their faces rather then looking up key items in the referendum fine print. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this at all, nothing at all. That is normally how I previously got my information on how to vote.

The one sticking point that people seem to have is always about children and adoption. The NO campaigners have successfully fooled some of population into believing that this referendum is about children and family (on the yes & no side!). They should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for instilling this belief in the posters and ad campaigns that they are running. Children are being used to deceive and to sway votes.

For those voting No or are on the fence because of the 'children' agenda, I would suggest revisiting more of the information that is available on the referendum, this is probably the most concise and straight shooting:

http://refcom2015.ie/marriage/

Please do not be swayed by the word 'family' that is used, this does not definitely mean children!
If your decision is to vote no after clearing this up, by all means it is your right to vote no if that is your want.

MrWalsh · 05-05-2015 09:45AM

gravehold wrote: »

YES I agree ssm is good but it's not equality of all adults, my issue is the slogan they are using what was wron with YES SSM. Also the bitchyness and bullying of people that are voting no is not nice to see also.

Its not "Equality in all directions to cover all manner of relationships".

Its Equality under our constitution - so that all people are treated equally regardless of sexuality.

We dont currently support polygamy for anyone. If enough people want it then I am happy to have a referendum on it.

Yes, everyone can marry someone of the opposite sex, but that doesnt cater for those who wish to marry someone of the same sex.

Maximus Alexander · 05-05-2015 09:50AM

gravehold wrote: »

I know polygamy is very frowned upon by people in lgbt groups.

If polygamy were legal for some people, but not for others, I would advocate either making polygamy available to all, or getting rid of polygamy.

Same goes for marriage - either make it available to everyone, or get rid of it altogether.

It is an equality issue.

Ave Sodalis · 05-05-2015 09:51AM

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

Whatever your thoughts on same sex adoption, marriage, whatever - fair play to you for asking questions, reading up and making an informed choice.

I'd also like to further this post and apologise that you've been subjected to the lies and propaganda the No side have been spreading. Unfortunately, the Yes side cannot do anything about this attempt to misguided people without being accused of bullying and taking away free speech.

Bannasidhe · 05-05-2015 09:54AM

gravehold wrote: »

YES I agree ssm is good but it's not equality of all adults, my issue is the slogan they are using what was wron with YES SSM. Also the bitchyness and bullying of people that are voting no is not nice to see also.

Oh please....

This is getting tiresome now.

ABNORMAL
SOCIAL EXPERIMENT
PSYCHOLOGICAL DAMAGE

Are the 'polite' terms that have been applied in this very thread to same-sex families.

The less polite terms saw people banned.

Our families have had to read reams of 'opinion' as to why we are lesser. Why we are selfish. Why we are threatening the very fabric of society because some of us want to get effin married. Married. Just married. Married like every straight couple have the opportunity to do without anyone discussing their 'lifestyle choice' or debating their parenting skills.

There are handwritten Vote No posters being put up by cowards in the middle of the night in West Cork that are about to become the subject of investigation under the Incitement to Hatred Act ( 3 in Clon were taken down yesterday and more appeared near Dunmanway last night)

Who attempting to bully who exactly?

SpaceTime · 05-05-2015 10:01AM

This is the concern about referenda. If the waters get muddied by lies the debate ends up being about something totally unrelated.

If this ends up being a vote on adoption rights or suragacy, everyone will have wasted their time voting as that's absolutely not the topic being voted on!

I've seen this in other far less personalised referenda and it really is dangerous for democracy.

I just hope people are intelligent enough to realise they're being fed lies.

How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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