How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

Ave Sodalis

Cats fur sale wrote: »

It's an awful kick in the guts for No voters to have to be hounded labelled and lambasted like this because they disagree with the yes side.

Spacetime was talking about people they personally knew, how do you know it was merely disagreeing with the Yes side?

Cats fur sale

sup_dude wrote: »

Spacetime was talking about people they personally knew, how do you know it was merely disagreeing with the Yes side?

Oh yeah I'm very sorry about that. How stupid of me.

cloud493

I find it an awful kick in the guts for certain aspects of the no side to spout constant homophobic lies and crap.

MrWalsh

Cats fur sale wrote: »

It's an awful kick in the guts for No voters to have to be hounded labelled and lambasted like this because they disagree with the yes side.

I'm still waiting to see an argument for No that isn't rooted in homophobia.

Benny_Cake

Cats fur sale wrote: »

It's an awful kick in the guts for No voters to have to be hounded labelled and lambasted like this because they disagree with the yes side.

Don't think that SpaceTime was saying that all No voters are bigoted and homophobic. Some certainly are though.

Always interested to hear why people are going to vote No, I haven't heard any convincing argument but people should be free to state their case providing they are prepared to have their position critiqued.

eviltwin

SpaceTime wrote: »

Is anyone else actually finding it a bit depressing and just wearing/tiring hearing all this negativity about gay people?

As much as I want to counter every argument, it's definitely having an impact on me. I can see myself being a ball of stress by 22nd!

It's opened up a lot of debate but it's also really showing me that a number of people who I had respected are actually complete homophobes and highly bigoted.

I've actually completely lost all respect for at least two people I know and I don't think I'll be bothered with them again either. It's not just a minor glitch in the relationship, I've seen a very different side of them and I don't think I can actually relate to them anymore after it.

It's an odd referendum and one that's going to have a very profound impact. I honestly think this is a choice between "modern, progressive Ireland" and "socially repressive Ireland".

I find it difficult to listen to at times and I'm not gay so I can only imagine what it's like if your gay especially if you have kids. My daughter is gay and is ignoring all the debate as best she can but it's impossible to ignore it completely and she's been really upset by some of the comments from prominent members of the No campaign. I swear if I ever meet David Quinn in person I will have to be held back.

Anita Blow

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Always interested to hear why people are going to vote No, I haven't heard any convincing argument but people should be free to state their case providing they are prepared to have their position critiqued.

I really don't think that's going to happen. The recent seems to be stating they're voting no and then saying they don't have to defend it. My view is that if you aren't prepared to defend your opinion it's because you know it's indefensible.

WoolyJumper

SpaceTime wrote: »

Is anyone else actually finding it a bit depressing and just wearing/tiring hearing all this negativity about gay people?

As much as I want to counter every argument, it's definitely having an impact on me. I can see myself being a ball of stress by 22nd!

It's opened up a lot of debate but it's also really showing me that a number of people who I had respected are actually complete homophobes and highly bigoted.

I've actually completely lost all respect for at least two people I know and I don't think I'll be bothered with them again either. It's not just a minor glitch in the relationship, I've seen a very different side of them and I don't think I can actually relate to them anymore after it.

It's an odd referendum and one that's going to have a very profound impact. I honestly think this is a choice between "modern, progressive Ireland" and "socially repressive Ireland".

For sure, you can even see on this thread people are getting tired, agitated, fed up. When you are gay you expect the odd comment, glance of disapproval now and then. You even get used to it. But the past month has been a barrage of criticism and you feel you must constantly defend yourself against lies from the other side.

For me the most frustrating part was the no side acting like victims in all of this and trying to make out the yes side were anti democratic for defending ourselves against this criticism. A lot of people got caught up in this idea both from the yes and no side. Often I had to remind others of the situation we were in, Where we are the ones on trial being asked to defend ourselves. Defend our right to marry, to be treated equally while also picking apart lies and mistruths from a very privileged few in society. If it was any other group in society, the reaction would have been a lot worse.

I had to take a week there where I avoided boards, didnt talk about the subject with anyone, wore earphones on the bus because I really needed a break from peoples opinions about my life. It helped. All I can say is, there is three weeks left until this referendum. Just keep your head up, smile politely and do your level best to dispel the myths around this ref and explain personally why this is important. You won't convince everyone and you just have to leave them to it. Hopefully it will all come good in the end.

SpaceTime

Cats fur sale wrote: »

It's an awful kick in the guts for No voters to have to be hounded labelled and lambasted like this because they disagree with the yes side.

Where did I label or lambast No voters !?!!!?

I'm getting sick of this stuff. It's like you can't disagree with No voters or you're immediately accused calling them homophobes.

It's a ridiculously immature way of shutting down debate. You're getting 50% of the airtime which is probably a vast over representation if opinion polls and party official lines are anything to go by!

The people I'm referring to are acquaintances and business contacts that made some unbelievably homophobic comments way beyond anything that I could even repeat here. Their arguments were based in just pure bigotry and nothing else.

They're very much in the genre of "I'm not a racist but..."

I'm not saying that applies to you or to the no campaigners in general but the referendum is giving a lot of people carte blanche to let rip with their previously filtered views about gay people. I'm just seeing a very unpleasant side of some people which is certainly eye opening anyway w

To Elland Back

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I haven't heard any convincing argument but people should be free to state their case providing they are prepared to have their position critiqued.

I'll be voting Yes, but democracy comes with the privilege that I don't have to explain my reasons for doing so and the same right is afforded to a No voter

Dimithy

Cats fur sale wrote: »

It's an awful kick in the guts for No voters to have to be hounded labelled and lambasted like this because they disagree with the yes side.

This is always such a laughable position. The people who are going to vote to continue to discriminate against others based on their sexuality, are the ones who are really being discriminated against.
And once again no mention of the lies being spouted by the no side.

KD345

Knit wit wrote: »

I had initially intended to vote yes but now I'm not so sure. I have been thinking long and hard about this - I feel that the link in our constitution between marriage and family is unfair. How many single parents out there are raising children alone who are not 'families'. Do they have the same legal protections that homosexual couples currently have? Should we redefine marriage entirely or our reliance on same to define family? I haven't fully decided how I will vote ... I will give it serious thought until polling day.

It's good that everyone spends time thinking about how to vote. Just be clear on the question you're being asked - to add to the constitution “Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex.”

This referendum will not change anything for single parents, but what it will do is give protection to children of those parents who at some point may choose to marry. Right now only heterosexual couples have that right.

Continue to give it some thought until polling day but at least be clear on what you're voting for. There is a lot of confusion flying around, read http://refcom2015.ie/marriage/ and understand what is being asked on May 22nd.

Cats fur sale

SpaceTime wrote: »

Where did I label or lambast No voters !?!!!?

I'm getting sick of this stuff. It's like you can't disagree with No voters or you're immediately accused calling them homophobes.

It's a ridiculously immature way of shutting down debate. You're getting 50% of the airtime which is probably a vast over representation if opinion polls and party official lines are anything to go by!

The people I'm referring to are acquaintances and business contacts that made some unbelievably homophobic comments way beyond anything that I could even repeat here. Their arguments were based in just pure bigotry and nothing else.

They're very much in the genre of "I'm not a racist but..."

You seem like a good person spacetime. Don't take the weight of the world on your shoulders. Vote whatever way you feel is right, as shall I.

VinLieger

To Elland Back wrote: »

I'll be voting Yes, but democracy comes with the privilege that I don't have to explain my reasons for doing so and the same right is afforded to a No voter

You don't have to explain it BUT democracy comes with the privilege that I can also ask you why and if you are coming to a discussion forum to state you are voting no then the presumption is you will at least be willing to discuss why

TheChizler

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's opened up a lot of debate but it's also really showing me that a number of people who I had respected are actually complete homophobes and highly bigoted.

This is why I'm afraid to talk to people I know about this in real life, already been taken aback by a couple of people's opinions, people who would be fairly liberal in many respects, but they've been taken in hard by "something something children". I don't like to think that I'd think differently of them because of their opinions but I'm still uncomfortable with the risk.

Yeah_Right

I'm a straight male in my mid 30s. I make gay jokes (racist, sexist, bigoted and extremely inappropriate ones too). I use terms like gay, fag, poof, queer in derogatory ways to describe people or thing that I don't like or that piss me off. Why? I just always have. When I cross the line my girlfriend or gay friends will call me on it.

I can't vote but if I could, I would vote yes. We have changed our holiday plans and now have to take an indirect flight on Friday afternoon so my girlfriend can vote in the referendum.

This vote is so important to Ireland's credibility as a modern nation.

Shrap

TheChizler wrote: »

This is why I'm afraid to talk to people I know about this in real life, already been taken aback by a couple of people's opinions, people who would be fairly liberal in many respects, but they've been taken in hard by "something something children". I don't like to think that I'd think differently of them because of their opinions but I'm still uncomfortable with the risk.

Lads, this may be the first time you lose friends (who you considered sound previously) over a human rights issue. It shocked me years ago to discover that some of my friends had me marked as a walking womb should I become pregnant against my better judgement, and that some others of my friends considered other friends of mine to be "taking our jobs and our wimmin" by virtue of their birthplace.

T'was a life lesson for me. I don't have to remain friends with the same people for ever, and not everyone has to like me either. It's a harsh one though. My sympathies to you and spacetime.

aloyisious

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well any job interviewer who refuses to employ someone because of their sexuality would leave themselves wide open to being sued.

If your sexuality (LGBT) is not in line with the religious ethos of a school, the school can refuse to employ you. If you are LGBT and currently in the employ of a school, the school can fire you if you are not in compliance (through being gay) with it's religious ethos.

bb1234567

arayess wrote: »

fair points - I just don't believe it'll have such an impact (or any) that people make out.




why not?they have the wealth and the resources?

I seem to recall in ireland we'd sell our kids for jobs and money i.e lisbon referendum which was rejected and then passed cos we were promised jobs.



This I kinda accept as a point alright.

However it's kind of the spotlight on us by default as if (like a lot of other things) or constitution wasn't so written we'd be stuck sucking up whatever the dail imposed on us.
Although I'm not overly sure it'll be news for long after the result.
The world moves on and business follows the money or the potential to make money - it rarely follows morality.

We should compare ourselves to saudi arabia just because they're wealthy? their culture is backward and violates many citizens human rights, its a wealthy (wealthy for some might I add) nation stuck in a medieval time warp. Sure we can compare ourselves to them and say we are very liberal but we can aim higher than that and strive to be like countries like sweden or netherlands who are even more liberal than us. Saying that theres lots of countries that are awful for gay people to live in doesn't mean we should say its not that bad that the SSM law didn't pass just because we don't execute gay people here like in other places. Thats weak and we can do better than that, we can lead other countries to do the same and make the world a better place for lgbt people.

bb1234567

Shrap wrote: »

Lads, this may be the first time you lose friends (who you considered sound previously) over a human rights issue. It shocked me years ago to discover that some of my friends had me marked as a walking womb should I become pregnant against my better judgement, and that some others of my friends considered other friends of mine to be "taking our jobs and our wimmin" by virtue of their birthplace.

T'was a life lesson for me. I don't have to remain friends with the same people for ever, and not everyone has to like me either. It's a harsh one though. My sympathies to you and spacetime.

Ah I know what you mean but I avoid the SSM topic with a lot of friends too because I don't want to end an otherwise healthy friendship over one thing we disagree on.

B_Wayne

Shrap wrote: »

Lads, this may be the first time you lose friends (who you considered sound previously) over a human rights issue. It shocked me years ago to discover that some of my friends had me marked as a walking womb should I become pregnant against my better judgement, and that some others of my friends considered other friends of mine to be "taking our jobs and our wimmin" by virtue of their birthplace.

T'was a life lesson for me. I don't have to remain friends with the same people for ever, and not everyone has to like me either. It's a harsh one though. My sympathies to you and spacetime.

I met a guy I was friends with since childhood a couple of years back. He started discussing abortion and Barrack Obama with me. He described to me why certain races are 'dumber' than others, why divorce should be illegal and I've seen his twitter page. He's big into the why we should vote no.

Needless to say, I haven't spoken with him since that conversation and never will. Reprehensible views to hold and refuse to associate with somebody like that.

Ozymandius2011

A question for no voters. Have you been polled yet and if so did you admit your voting intention?

I ask because the press seem to think the DKs are closet no voters, and historically this has indeed been the case.

You say you are afraid of falling out with people or being called homophobes. Okay. But a polling company is not going to do that. Unless you think the polling companies are part the NWO or something...

niallo27

Can anyone give me a reason to vote no. Not because I want a reason to vote no. I never bother voting anyway. I just can't think of or heard any reason not to vote yes.

smash

niallo27 wrote: »

Can anyone give me a reason to vote no. Not because I want a reason to vote no. I never bother voting anyway. I just can't think of or heard any reason not to vote yes.

Then you really should vote.

frostyjacks

niallo27 wrote: »

Can anyone give me a reason to vote no. Not because I want a reason to vote no. I never bother voting anyway. I just can't think of or heard any reason not to vote yes.

Do you think it's right to deny children a mother and a father?

Ozymandius2011

frostyjacks wrote: »

Do you think it's right to deny children a mother and a father?

Its never okay to forcibly do so unless the parents are abusing them. Don't you think there are parents that are a danger to their children?

I know two women who in childhood were raped by their father who is now in jail. Surely you're not saying they should have been left in his care?

amdublin

frostyjacks wrote: »

Do you think it's right to deny children a mother and a father?

The marriage referendum will not be denying this . They are two unrelated points.

Ave Sodalis

frostyjacks wrote: »

Do you think it's right to deny children a mother and a father?

Again, nothing to do with referendum. Have you a reason that's relevant?

To Elland Back

VinLieger wrote: »

You don't have to explain it BUT democracy comes with the privilege that I can also ask you why and if you are coming to a discussion forum to state you are voting no then the presumption is you will at least be willing to discuss why

This thread, with attached poll, asks a specific question where either Yes or No is the correct answer.

I know the point you are making but mine is that the majority of people voting in this referendum will do so without telling anyone why they voting one way or the other

Cats fur sale

Cats fur sale wrote: »

It's an awful kick in the guts for No voters to have to be hounded labelled and lambasted like this because they disagree with the yes side.

I agree. Maybe anyone who's voting NO is intimidated here and is not prepared to get into a battle about what is their opinion and their right to cast a vote.

If you read back the last few pages anyone that says they're voting No faces a barage of insinuations ,questions and name calling.

They are not all homophobic. They are certainly not "playing the victim" card. But as soon as anyone says they're voting No they're inundated by dozens of posts to explain in detail why. IF they give their reason (maybe it's personal, maybe its experience) they're called names and attacked. And they are called VICTIMS! Maybe its better for them to stay quiet - and just go and vote quietly on the day,

To be honest I think there has been so few people come on and explain why they want to vote NO because of the intimidation. Its a bit like the water meter protests......a lot of the anti- water protestors left the protests due to the behaviour of a cohort of activists that turned the whole thing ugly. That kind of behaviour can swing votes and change opinions.

This is just my opinion on why nobody is getting involved in explanations. IF you notice anybody who has been harangued and lambasted just gave up and went quiet. That doesn't mean they changed their mind. Maybe it even strengthened their decision on voting No.