How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

cloud493 · 04-05-2015 01:38PM

endacl wrote: »

This thread moves fast! Just checking in. Any rational reason to vote no yet?

No, just silly nonsense reasons

Galwayguy35 · 04-05-2015 01:55PM

Nodin wrote: »

Why are you voting "no" might I ask?

I could answer that for me personally marriage is between man and woman but I would be called stupid, thick and a bigot.

Am I right?

Grayditch · 04-05-2015 01:56PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I could answer that for me personally marriage is between man and woman but I would be called stupid, thick and a bigot.

Am I right?

No, just a bit selfish.

timetogo · 04-05-2015 02:00PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I could answer that for me personally marriage is between man and woman but I would be called stupid, thick and a bigot.

Am I right?

No. You'd only be called a bigot if you were intolerant of others holding different opinions.

Bannasidhe · 04-05-2015 02:04PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I could answer that for me personally marriage is between man and woman but I would be called stupid, thick and a bigot.

Am I right?

I would say deeply conservative and invested in the status quo on a par with people who believed voting was only for men.

But sure - play the victim card if you want.

On that whole trying to claim victim status - it strikes me that perhaps some people state that they expect to be called bigot and the like because deep down they suspect their view is bigoted...

Galwayguy35 · 04-05-2015 02:05PM

timetogo wrote: »

No. You'd only be called a bigot if you were intolerant of others holding different opinions.

I've no problem with anyone having a different opinion, there seems to be a bit of intolerance towards the no side though.

Realistically I think we all know it will pass so I don't get all the agro towards the no side.

Grayditch · 04-05-2015 02:07PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I've no problem with anyone having a different opinion, there seems to be a bit of intolerance towards the no side though.

Maybe if they would come up one.decent reason for voting No and delivered it to the yes side in a way reasonable people could understand there would be less frustration from the yes side.

Galwayguy35 · 04-05-2015 02:07PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I would say deeply conservative and invested in the status quo on a par with people who believed voting was only for men.

But sure - play the victim card if you want.

On that whole trying to claim victim status - it strikes me that perhaps some people state that they expect to be called bigot and the like because deep down they suspect their view is bigoted...

Well it didn't take long to clear up that question I asked.

SpaceTime · 04-05-2015 02:09PM

aloyisious wrote: »

I listened to Archbishop Martin (the senior one, not the Dublin one) on RTE earlier and he right out lied time after time when answering the interviewers questions. I turned off the radio as I was angered, it's probably one of the few times (outside when Joe Duffy is on) that I did so. Bishop Martin said quite clearly that priests would be forced by law to perform same sex marriages, or be sued for discrimination, on the lines of the baker in the UK. He lied about what is , and is not, written in our constitution about marriage. Archbishop Martin is an outright liar, lying to all practicing Roman Catholics, non-practicing Roman Catholics, to anyone who heard and may hear what he said. I laughed when he said that if there was a yes vote, it would open up the issue of co-operation with the state on marriage for debate within the church. He is a lying despicable deceiver masquerading as an person of respect in priestly robes, and makes me ashamed of being a Catholic and a Christian.

.........................................................................................................................................................

Glad I got that off my chest or it'd be sitting on my mind all day. I heard him again on the Ten news about how the church might withdraw from registering marriages for the state if there was a YES vote. The obvious thing that came to mind was that the priests would, presumably, only be registering marriages performed by them in RC churches, so it would only be the Straight RC just-married couples the church would be inconveniencing, not gay couples married in accordance with Civil law as the priests would NOT be involved by church law, and certainly the priests would not be forced to do so by state law, even though Archbishop Martin clearly said that was what would happen if the YES change came in. He's just interested in using lies and scare tactics to persuade people to vote NO.

I actually had the same reaction myself. Switched off the radio and put on some happy music instead!

timetogo · 04-05-2015 02:12PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I've no problem with anyone having a different opinion, there seems to be a bit of intolerance towards the no side though.

Realistically I think we all know it will pass so I don't get all the agro towards the no side.

Yeah. Mainly because of the rationale a lot of No voters use.
You yourself say you say that for you personally marriage is between a man and a woman. It is for me too. But it's not for everybody.
I've no problem with voting yes even though it doesn't affect me personally and it makes some other people's lives better. I don't understand people who can't do that.

If there are other reasons like cherry picking religious rules or people just being homophobic, they're obviously worse to me.

MrWalsh · 04-05-2015 02:14PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I could answer that for me personally marriage is between man and woman but I would be called stupid, thick and a bigot.

Am I right?

Whats interesting is that before you posted this in relation to abortion:

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I dont agree with abortion in principal, but i also dont tell others what to do.

But now you are happy to tell others what to do in relation to who they can marry. Even though abortion would possibly have a much greater effect on you personally (if someone wanted to abort a child of yours) and yet same sex marriage would have zero effect on you personally.

Any particular reason for the compassion on the one hand and the lack thereof on the other?

timetogo · 04-05-2015 02:15PM

It would be great if churches stopped registering marriages for the state. I'd imagine a lot of people wouldn't bother with the church marriage.

MrWalsh · 04-05-2015 02:16PM

timetogo wrote: »

It would be great if churches stopped registering marriages for the state. I'd imagine a lot of people wouldn't bother with the church marriage.

+1

Double win.

marienbad · 04-05-2015 02:16PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I've no problem with anyone having a different opinion, there seems to be a bit of intolerance towards the no side though.

Realistically I think we all know it will pass so I don't get all the agro towards the no side.

What do you mean by intolerance towards the no side ?

There are two competing arguments in a political campaign . one side has as yet to knowingly tell a lie ,or knowingly disseminate false advertising or threaten to use the courts to silence people .

Rogue elements on the other side has torn down some posters.

And it is the yes campaign that you say is intolerant ?

Tea-a-Maria · 04-05-2015 02:25PM

It's so bloody disheartening how the No side has managed to muddy the waters with the surrogacy argument.

I was home this weekend and talking to my mam and aunt about the referendum. Both of them said they had nothing against gay marriage, but didn't like the idea of surrogacy. Took me a while to hammer home that surrogacy has nothing to do with the referendum and that a no vote won't prevent it in any way. What a yes vote would do is give greater protection to children who have already been born by surrogacy.

I also had to explain how a no vote as a protest vote against surrogacy was a terrible idea and explained the actual message that a no vote would send out: that gay people are second-class citizens and that their relationships don't deserve to be protected. That seemed to hit home, since both my mam and aunt know plenty of gay people and acknowledge they're perfectly nice, normal human beings.

A lot of soft yes votes and fence sitters are being swayed by the untruths of the no side. It's up to yes campaigners to point out the flaws in their arguments, so make sure your friends and family are properly informed.

Bannasidhe · 04-05-2015 02:35PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well it didn't take long to clear up that question I asked.

Did it?

Except that I didn't actually call you any of the things you expected to be called, I merely pondered on why you expected to be called them.

Soon you'll have enough victim cards to lose at poker. :pac:

TheChizler · 04-05-2015 02:37PM

marienbad wrote: »

Rogue elements on the other side has torn down some posters.

All the yes posters in my area have disappeared in the last week. #justsayin

6am7f9zxrsjvnb · 04-05-2015 02:43PM

timetogo wrote: »

No. You'd only be called a bigot if you were intolerant of others holding different opinions.

The irony.

Bannasidhe · 04-05-2015 02:43PM

TheChizler wrote: »

All the yes posters in my area have disappeared in the last week. #justsayin

Just heard that complaints under the Incitement to Hatred Act have been made to the Gardaí in Clonakility about a poster that appeared in the town over night. Not sure what the text on it is as it's just being referred to as the 'No to Gays' poster on social media.

TheChizler · 04-05-2015 02:50PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Just heard that complaints under the Incitement to Hatred Act have been made to the Gardaí in Clonakility about a poster that appeared in the town over night. Not sure what the text on it is as it's just being referred to as the 'No to Gays' poster on social media.

Hoping that it's a poorly thought out parody, sad to think of the hatred and intelligence required to put it up as genuine.

tmh106 · 04-05-2015 03:02PM

In reply to the question in the thread title: I probably won't be voting because I will be out of the country on work travel. Can I register for a postal vote, and if yes, is it too late to do so now?

If I can vote I will be voting "Yes". I am somewhat concerned about the number of organisations that I feel should be apolitical that are advocating a Yes vote. GRA, and Garda, and yesterday I drove into town, past GMIT college and it was flying a Rainbow flag. I can't recall seeing one flying over the college before (though, in fairness, I don't pass it that often, so it may have) so I interpreted that as effectively a statement of support for a Yes vote.

tmh

endacl · 04-05-2015 03:11PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I could answer that for me personally marriage is between man and woman but I would be called stupid, thick and a bigot.

Am I right?

Y'see? That's the problem. For you personally, marriage is between a man and a woman. For me personally, as a hetero male, and in the unlikely instance I take the plunge, it'll be between me (a man) and a woman. For my gay friends and family though, this is not the case. Also, for the many gay people I don't know and will never meet, this is not the case.

So I'll vote yes. Because that would be the rational action to take. Based on what you posted.

WoolyJumper · 04-05-2015 03:27PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I could answer that for me personally marriage is between man and woman but I would be called stupid, thick and a bigot.

Am I right?

You're entitled to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. You are entitled to have a male - female marriage.

Going out of your way to stop others getting married who dont believe that -when it will have no effect on your life what so ever... hmmm. I just can't see the reasoning behind that.

Bannasidhe · 04-05-2015 03:56PM

We keep hearing SSM isn't a civil liberties issue. That no way can it be compared to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s because no one has been murdered. Yet, in Ireland people were murdered for being gay in my lifetime. Beaten to death in the street for the 'crime' of being a 'queer'.
Across the globe right now lesbian, gay and transgender people are still being murdered - often with governmental approval.

If anyone is in any doubt that discrimination against LGBT people is still rampant globally and is very much a Civil Rights issue than may I point them to the first UN report on The Human Rights of LGBT people.

15 December 2011 – The first ever United Nations report on the human rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people details how around the world people are killed or endure hate-motivated violence, torture, detention, criminalization and discrimination in jobs, health care and education because of their real or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity.

The report, released today by the UN Office for the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) in Geneva, outlines “a pattern of human rights violations… that demands a response,” and says governments have too often overlooked violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity.Violence against LGBT persons tends to be especially vicious compared to other bias-motivated crimes.

Homophobic and transphobic violence has been recorded in every region of the world, the report finds, and ranges from murder, kidnappings, assaults and rapes to psychological threats and arbitrary deprivations of liberty

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=40743#.VUeBCPlVikp

Declan Flynn was beaten to death in Fairview Park on September 9, 1982, by five teenagers because he was homosexual. In March 1983, the Declan Flynn case came before the court. Justice Sean Gannon gave them suspended sentences for manslaughter and allowed the five to walk free. "This," he said, "could never be regarded as murder." There were reports of celebrations in Fairview. The judge was of the opinion that the 5 teenagers were simply cleaning up the area.
The response from the Gay Community was Dublin Pride.http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/attitudes-may-have-changed-but-gaybashing-still-happens-29358960.html

But, sure, male homosexuality was decriminalized in 1993 and we're all equal now.

In 2008 a 16 year old was arrested for attacking a man and his girlfriend because he thought they were gay men. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/state-compile-book-of-evidence-for-gay-bashing-case-343645.html

Gary Staunton, 24, from Cabra in Dublin died in July 2012 after taking an overdose of paracetamol tablets following a 'gay-bashing'.

10 April 2013 Buzz O'Neill was beaten Dublin. ' “I kissed my friend goodbye on the corner of the laneway, beside the dry cleaners and there was a taxi stopped beside me. One of the guys in it shouted ‘****ing ******’ out the window. I told him to ‘**** off’, and he spat at me out of the taxi.” The man and three others got out of the taxi and proceeded to attack Buzz.' http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/poplife/2013/04/11/gay-bashing-gay-marriage-and-how-the-media-needs-to-get-a-grip/

These are just the tip of the iceberg.

Ireland now has a unique opportunity. The opportunity to stand before the world and - via a public vote - have it recorded that the Irish people do not see any citizen as lesser because of their sexual orientation.

That, in OUR Constitution, a same-sex couple is considered a family, just like a heterosexual couple and OUR country stands firmly on the side of equality regardless of Race, Creed, Colour or Sexual Orientation and opposed to hatred and bigotry of any kind.

Or

We can choose to side with the Russias and Uganda's and Saudi Arabias of this world and say 'some citizens are not deserving of equality and protection'.

It's up to US. The people of Ireland.

I know which country I want to live in and my grandchildren to grow up in...

eviltwin · 04-05-2015 03:58PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We keep hearing SSM isn't a civil liberties issue. That no way can it be compared to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s because no one has been murdered. Yet, in Ireland people were murdered for being gay in my lifetime. Beaten to death in the street for the 'crime' of being a 'queer'.
Across the globe right now lesbian, gay and transgender people are still being murdered - often with governmental approval.

If anyone is in any doubt that discrimination against LGBT people is still rampant globally and is very much a Civil Rights issue than may I point them to the first UN report on The Human Rights of LGBT people.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=40743#.VUeBCPlVikp

Declan Flynn was beaten to death in Fairview Park on September 9, 1982, by five teenagers because he was homosexual. In March 1983, the Declan Flynn case came before the court. Justice Sean Gannon gave them suspended sentences for manslaughter and allowed the five to walk free. "This," he said, "could never be regarded as murder." There were reports of celebrations in Fairview. The judge was of the opinion that the 5 teenagers were simply cleaning up the area.
The response from the Gay Community was Dublin Pride.http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/attitudes-may-have-changed-but-gaybashing-still-happens-29358960.html

But, sure, male homosexuality was decriminalized in 1993 and we're all equal now.

In 2008 a 16 year old was arrested for attacking a man and his girlfriend because he thought they were gay men. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/state-compile-book-of-evidence-for-gay-bashing-case-343645.html

Gary Staunton, 24, from Cabra in Dublin died in July 2012 after taking an overdose of paracetamol tablets following a 'gay-bashing'.

10 April 2013 Buzz O'Neill was beaten Dublin. ' “I kissed my friend goodbye on the corner of the laneway, beside the dry cleaners and there was a taxi stopped beside me. One of the guys in it shouted ‘****ing ******’ out the window. I told him to ‘**** off’, and he spat at me out of the taxi.” The man and three others got out of the taxi and proceeded to attack Buzz.' http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/poplife/2013/04/11/gay-bashing-gay-marriage-and-how-the-media-needs-to-get-a-grip/

These are just the tip of the iceberg.

Ireland now has a unique opportunity. The opportunity to stand before the world and - via a public vote - have it recorded that the Irish people do not see any citizen as lesser because of their sexual orientation.

That, in OUR Constitution, a same-sex couple is considered a family, just like a heterosexual couple and OUR country stands firmly on the side of equality regardless of Race, Creed, Colour or Sexual Orientation and opposed to hatred and bigotry of any kind.

Or

We can choose to side with the Russias and Uganda's and Saudi Arabias of this world and say 'some citizens are not deserving of equality and protection'.

It's up to US. The people of Ireland.

I know which country I want to live in and my grandchildren to grow up in...

Never knew any of those. The first in particular is chilling.

timetogo · 04-05-2015 04:07PM

I'm atheist. Reading articles or talking with people you often hear the question what harm does religion cause you. In Ireland I was of the opinion that these days being religious or not had no impact on peoples lives if they didn't want it to.

Last night, talking with a couple of older people I was told marriage is a sacrament and that they'd be voting no because of this. They had no problem with gay people (they said) but they were going to vote no anyway. I know this referendum has nothing to do with religious marriage but these people are listening to their priests and voting based on religious ideologies rather than thinking about their fellow humans so their religion could have an impact on peoples lives that have nothing to do with it.

So now I'm a lot less middle of the road. Thinking about it today I'm of the opinion that I won't be setting foot inside a church again. Before, I didn't care. My idea was if they're praying to an imaginary guy in the sky I don't care, I'll pay lip service for the sake of this wedding, funeral, whatever. It makes no difference to me. But it does. By going along with it, it's saying its OK. With referenda like this it's not.

I've no problem with people voting yes or no. We live in society and people are free to make up their own mind but yes or no it's opened my eyes a bit more and it's a small step but at least I've an answer now for when people ask what harm does religion cause.

MrWalsh · 04-05-2015 04:08PM

What I sincerely hope comes out of the impending Yes vote is that besides marriage equality, there will be an end to unacceptable homophobia that I see on a regular basis, both online and in real life.

There is another website that I used to use and one poster was so virulently homophobic that it disgusted me. I even reported some of the guys posts as hate speech but the mods clearly didnt agree as they were left there. Really nasty stuff. I decided to check in recently on the site given the upcoming referendum and there he is, same poster, this time trying to dress up his blatant homophobia as concern for childrens rights or the "gendered" institution of marriage. Makes me sick really that people are spouting homophobic nonsense and getting away with it. Its happening on this site too, in the comments section of the journal, reddit etc... Hopefully when this referendum passes it will be a big step forward in making this kind of casual bigotry totally unacceptable.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb · 04-05-2015 04:22PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We keep hearing SSM isn't a civil liberties issue. That no way can it be compared to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s because no one has been murdered. Yet, in Ireland people were murdered for being gay in my lifetime. Beaten to death in the street for the 'crime' of being a 'queer'.
Across the globe right now lesbian, gay and transgender people are still being murdered - often with governmental approval.

If anyone is in any doubt that discrimination against LGBT people is still rampant globally and is very much a Civil Rights issue than may I point them to the first UN report on The Human Rights of LGBT people.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=40743#.VUeBCPlVikp

Declan Flynn was beaten to death in Fairview Park on September 9, 1982, by five teenagers because he was homosexual. In March 1983, the Declan Flynn case came before the court. Justice Sean Gannon gave them suspended sentences for manslaughter and allowed the five to walk free. "This," he said, "could never be regarded as murder." There were reports of celebrations in Fairview. The judge was of the opinion that the 5 teenagers were simply cleaning up the area.
The response from the Gay Community was Dublin Pride.http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/attitudes-may-have-changed-but-gaybashing-still-happens-29358960.html

But, sure, male homosexuality was decriminalized in 1993 and we're all equal now.

In 2008 a 16 year old was arrested for attacking a man and his girlfriend because he thought they were gay men. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/state-compile-book-of-evidence-for-gay-bashing-case-343645.html

Gary Staunton, 24, from Cabra in Dublin died in July 2012 after taking an overdose of paracetamol tablets following a 'gay-bashing'.

10 April 2013 Buzz O'Neill was beaten Dublin. ' “I kissed my friend goodbye on the corner of the laneway, beside the dry cleaners and there was a taxi stopped beside me. One of the guys in it shouted ‘****ing ******’ out the window. I told him to ‘**** off’, and he spat at me out of the taxi.” The man and three others got out of the taxi and proceeded to attack Buzz.' http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/poplife/2013/04/11/gay-bashing-gay-marriage-and-how-the-media-needs-to-get-a-grip/

These are just the tip of the iceberg.

Ireland now has a unique opportunity. The opportunity to stand before the world and - via a public vote - have it recorded that the Irish people do not see any citizen as lesser because of their sexual orientation.

That, in OUR Constitution, a same-sex couple is considered a family, just like a heterosexual couple and OUR country stands firmly on the side of equality regardless of Race, Creed, Colour or Sexual Orientation and opposed to hatred and bigotry of any kind.

Or

We can choose to side with the Russias and Uganda's and Saudi Arabias of this world and say 'some citizens are not deserving of equality and protection'.

It's up to US. The people of Ireland.

I know which country I want to live in and my grandchildren to grow up in...

It's possible to vote No and still find all of the examples above reprehensible.Unbelievable,I know.

MrWalsh · 04-05-2015 04:24PM

Louise Gentle Gem wrote: »

It's possible to vote No and still find all of the examples above reprehensible.Unbelievable,I know.

So, you dont agree with killing the gays, just with discriminating against them based on sexuality?

LizT · 04-05-2015 04:28PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Whats interesting is that before you posted this in relation to abortion:

But now you are happy to tell others what to do in relation to who they can marry. Even though abortion would possibly have a much greater effect on you personally (if someone wanted to abort a child of yours) and yet same sex marriage would have zero effect on you personally.

Any particular reason for the compassion on the one hand and the lack thereof on the other?

Mod

Attack the post, not the poster. Digging up a post from two years ago is going a bit too far, you can make your point without it.

How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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