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Eircom fibre for direct to exchange news?

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Comments

  • #512
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I didn't think Sky were using their own LLU equipment, thought they were using BT's footprint for LLU.

    Looking at it from the other point of view, if there is a possibility of interference caused by eVDSL2, then that's a very understandable concern. There are businesses served by SDSL leased lines from BT's equipment and I wouldn't like my SLA jeapordised because of some other operator's tech. (I'm not saying this is actually a risk but there must be some technical reason for another operator opposing it, beyond losing market share).

    Also, I have family on a long line served by LLU. Much too far away from the cabinet too. They have limited speeds as it is without something else adding extra interference/crosstalk.

    Anyway I'm sure a solution can be found to the satisfaction of everybody, it's frustrating that it's taking so long to find complete agreement...


  • #513
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,094 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    lucernarian wrote: »
    I didn't think Sky were using their own LLU equipment, thought they were using BT's footprint for LLU.

    Looking at it from the other point of view, if there is a possibility of interference caused by eVDSL2, then that's a very understandable concern. There are businesses served by SDSL leased lines from BT's equipment and I wouldn't like my SLA jeapordised because of some other operator's tech. (I'm not saying this is actually a risk but there must be some technical reason for another operator opposing it, beyond losing market share).

    Also, I have family on a long line served by LLU. Much too far away from the cabinet too. They have limited speeds as it is without something else adding extra interference/crosstalk.

    Anyway I'm sure a solution can be found to the satisfaction of everybody, it's frustrating that it's taking so long to find complete agreement...

    Skys entire network here is BT equipment except the bits they have to buy from eircom.

    The issue is vectoring. It doesnt work if you LLU as the DSLAMs are totally independent. So eircom will want to only allow VDSL on their side of the MDF, but then that puts LLU operators out of business. On the other hand if you dont vector your neuter the user end speeds significantly.

    Considering there is and never will be LLU for FTTC I'd be of the opinion that COMREG should make an executive decision to go ahead with eircom only VDSL in the exchange for the benefit of the consumer while we await FTTH which anyone can resell.


  • #514
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    ED E wrote: »
    Skys entire network here is BT equipment except the bits they have to buy from eircom.

    The issue is vectoring. It doesnt work if you LLU as the DSLAMs are totally independent. So eircom will want to only allow VDSL on their side of the MDF, but then that puts LLU operators out of business. On the other hand if you dont vector your neuter the user end speeds significantly.

    Considering there is and never will be LLU for FTTC I'd be of the opinion that COMREG should make an executive decision to go ahead with eircom only VDSL in the exchange for the benefit of the consumer while we await FTTH which anyone can resell.
    Thanks for the clarification. With vectoring right now, the only ADSL crosstalk comes from DSLAMs in exchanges 1 or 2 or 3 kilometres away. If ADSL2 and VDSL2 equipment are operating together, will that affect the performance of vectoring much? I presume the existing LLU equipment in exchanges is ADSL2+ capable only?


  • #515
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,094 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Read here.


  • #516
    dbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    ED E wrote: »
    Read here.


    I knew this exchange based would run lower freqs thus lower speeds when considering reach. The profile Eircom have opted for has got room for improvement and the standards seem to be prepped with this in mind.


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  • #517
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lucernarian wrote: »
    There are businesses served by SDSL leased lines from BT's equipment and I wouldn't like my SLA jeapordised because of some other operator's tech.

    Don't know why any business would opt to stay on SDSL, if VDSL2 was available to them. VDSL2 outperforms SDSL speeds, so really no need for SDSL anymore.

    I wonder if Node Level Vectoring would help reduce the issues. Reading a little about Huawei's NLV, it seems to imply that it will work with other xDSL technology in a Mixed Service operator exchange.

    Though really BT needs to get with the times and perhaps launch their own VDSL LLU DSLAMS in their exchanges, working closely with Eircom Wholesale to ensure vectoring works between them via NLV.

    BT previously talked about doing LLU VDSL, but seem to have gone quiet about this. It seems everyone was caught off guard at how quickly and effectively Eircom wholesale rolled out FTTC VDSL.

    Having said that, I would be concerned if VDSL effects the performance of long reach ADSL2+ lines. It seems VDSL doesn't perform the same as ADSL2+ over long distances, so ADSL2+ will remain important for the next few years until those further out are connected to FTTH via the NBP or re-routed to closer VDSL cabs.


  • #518
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Actually that is one thing about Eircoms FTTC rollout that I hadn't thought of.

    It not only allows them compete better with UPC, but perhaps more importantly to Eircom it allowed them compete much more effectively against BT LLU. The FTTC cabs allows Eircom win back a massive number of LLU lines connected to these cabs from BT. I mean who is going to stay on 24mb/s ADSL2+ if they have 100Mb/s VDSL available to them?

    BT couldn't do much to block the FTTC cabs, as they don't directly interfere with BT's services. It was completely outside the exchange.

    However BT can fight them launching eVDSL in exchanges where they are present, due to possible interference. Allowing them to at least keep some of their LLU customers.

    Though that will only work for BT in the short term. BT will be stuffed when Eircom starts rolling out FTTH from these exchanges, which BT would have no ability to stop or block.

    BT is going to have to decide what it's future looks like soon. They are going to have to decide to invest in their own LLU VDSL and FTTH project or step back further and just become a backhaul provider. I expect they will do the latter. I can't see them heavily investing in last mile FTTC/FTTH, not with the new aggressive Eircom, UPC firing on all cylinders and a new powerful player in the ESB.

    Actually now that I think of it, I'm surprised BT Ireland didn't try harder to become the ESB's partner network for their rollout of FTTH!


  • #519
    guil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,717 ✭✭✭✭guil


    Does anyone know if CUR1_E01 is one of those exchanges with LLU or how would you find out?


  • #520
    dbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    Great post BK , i would think yes they will fall back to the latter also . I thought they had thrown in the towel long ago and did not realize they had so much llu's and install base . Possibly the direct fed deploy has been changed to work around BT installed exchanges and the spate of blue DF exchanges could be a pull back and re-target exchanges with no BT . I have scanned practically all fo macroom we have voda sky and eircom no sign of BT anywhere , im hoping im right on this. ( Work around implied by some people reporting the build was blue or in planning and is now gone)


  • #521
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dbit wrote: »
    Great post BK , i would think yes they will fall back to the latter also . I thought they had thrown in the towel long ago and did not realize they had so much llu's and install base . Possibly the direct fed deploy has been changed to work around BT installed exchanges and the spate of blue DF exchanges could be a pull back and re-target exchanges with no BT . I have scanned practically all fo macroom we have voda sky and eircom no sign of BT anywhere , im hoping im right on this. ( Work around implied by some people reporting the build was blue or in planning and is now gone)

    According to the BT Ireland website, they say they have nearly 100 exchanges with LLU gear. While there are well over 1000 exchanges in Ireland, most are small and rural. I'd expect BT's 100 exchange are the 100 biggest ones and likely covers close to 2/3rds of the population of Ireland.

    So I expect they are mostly exchanges in the cities and most rural exchanges can thus benefit from EVDSL.

    BTW BT Ireland don't sell directly to customers any more. Vodafone and Sky mostly use and sell BT's LLU product where available and use Eircom everywhere else. Of course with Eircom VDSL, I expect Vodafone and Sky are directly reselling Eircom VDSL more and more now, however they could still be using BT for backhaul.


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  • #522
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    bk wrote: »
    It not only allows them compete better with UPC, but perhaps more importantly to Eircom it allowed them compete much more effectively against BT LLU. The FTTC cabs allows Eircom win back a massive number of LLU lines connected to these cabs from BT. I mean who is going to stay on 24mb/s ADSL2+ if they have 100Mb/s VDSL available to them?
    I've been making that point a couple of times in this forum. It suits BT down to the ground to continue using their own LLU equipment that they've had there for over ten years in some cases.

    I've no personal opinion on using S(H)DSL but they still have such customers on their LLU DSLAMs so they probably want their existing, lucrative contracts maintained for as long as possible without any disruption.
    Having said that, I would be concerned if VDSL effects the performance of long reach ADSL2+ lines. It seems VDSL doesn't perform the same as ADSL2+ over long distances, so ADSL2+ will remain important for the next few years until those further out are connected to FTTH via the NBP or re-routed to closer VDSL cabs.
    It's uncommon that an LLU ADSL2+ customer was unable to be moved over to a VDSL2 cab by now for reasons of being 2.2 km from the cab and 2.5 km from exchange, for example. Though there are probably small numbers in that exact situation. The longer lines are probably served with ADSL2 (G.992.3) if the modem in my family's house is accurate. But that's just a technicality. There's not that many customers on LLU at >5 km lengths I'm guessing.

    More importantly in the case of Tullyallen, presumably the LLU operators in Drogheda have objected to transferring those long lines to the existing Tullyallen cabinet and exchange. And eircom don't seem bothered to provide a Drogheda-based cabinet in the village. This has led to a huge injustice being done on dozens of properties in the village with people only able to 1 to 2 mbit connections while their neighbours will almost without exception get the full 100 Mbit connection when enabled.

    Regarding the link ED E posted, the first half of it has some problems with its info. The table of maximum speeds for ADSLx products is simply wrong and there's no explanation from the second graph of an important thing highlighted with VDSL2 - echo cancellation and trellis coding. Presumably this and especially lower dBm/Hz values for VDSL (similar total power spread over a much wider bandwidth) (see part 3.8 of http://www.aicit.org/IJACT/ppl/2.pdf) mean that VDSL2 would underperform compared to ADSL2 at longer distances. A special power spectrum density mask could be hypothetically created for VDSL2 below 2.2 MHz but I don't know if this exists yet or if ComReg would ever allow it. If possible, this could make the efibre cabinet rollout more useful for longer lines.


  • #523
    dbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    Echo canceler boards can they not improve your points on echo cancellation and trellis coding ?


  • #524
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    dbit wrote: »
    Echo canceler boards can they not improve your points on echo cancellation and trellis coding ?
    I don't quite follow this. Do you mean eircom should be deploying these features with their VDSL2 rollout? I know they have g.inp switched on and I think trellis coding but there are instances of people on lower VDSL than ADSL speeds anyway. I'm guessing a combination of the higher noise margin employed on VDSL and I *think* much lower power spectral density for the 25 to 2208 kHz with VDSL profile 17a is what explains the problems with using current efibre service over 2km. But I haven't looked at the CFLMP document yet and perhaps ED E could elaborate further on that point?


  • #525
    dbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    bk wrote: »
    According to the BT Ireland website, they say they have nearly 100 exchanges with LLU gear. While there are well over 1000 exchanges in Ireland, most are small and rural. I'd expect BT's 100 exchange are the 100 biggest ones and likely covers close to 2/3rds of the population of Ireland.

    So I expect they are mostly exchanges in the cities and most rural exchanges can thus benefit from EVDSL.

    BTW BT Ireland don't sell directly to customers any more. Vodafone and Sky mostly use and sell BT's LLU product where available and use Eircom everywhere else. Of course with Eircom VDSL, I expect Vodafone and Sky are directly reselling Eircom VDSL more and more now, however they could still be using BT for backhaul.

    Yes and possible proof of that is the locations that have gone blue recently non heavy populated exchanges .


  • #526
    dbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    lucernarian wrote: »
    I don't quite follow this. Do you mean eircom should be deploying these features with their VDSL2 rollout? I know they have g.inp switched on and I think trellis coding but there are instances of people on lower VDSL than ADSL speeds anyway. I'm guessing a combination of the higher noise margin employed on VDSL and I *think* much lower power spectral density for the 25 to 2208 kHz with VDSL profile 17a is what explains the problems with using current efibre service over 2km. But I haven't looked at the CFLMP document yet and perhaps ED E could elaborate further on that point?

    I am confusing myself here echo canceler Boards are in the back of my head from the older pstn networks . Forget I said that.


  • #527
    Hackery
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Hackery


    bk wrote: »
    Actually that is one thing about Eircoms FTTC rollout that I hadn't thought of.

    It not only allows them compete better with UPC, but perhaps more importantly to Eircom it allowed them compete much more effectively against BT LLU. The FTTC cabs allows Eircom win back a massive number of LLU lines connected to these cabs from BT. I mean who is going to stay on 24mb/s ADSL2+ if they have 100Mb/s VDSL available to them?

    BT couldn't do much to block the FTTC cabs, as they don't directly interfere with BT's services. It was completely outside the exchange.

    However BT can fight them launching eVDSL in exchanges where they are present, due to possible interference. Allowing them to at least keep some of their LLU customers.

    Though that will only work for BT in the short term. BT will be stuffed when Eircom starts rolling out FTTH from these exchanges, which BT would have no ability to stop or block.

    BT is going to have to decide what it's future looks like soon. They are going to have to decide to invest in their own LLU VDSL and FTTH project or step back further and just become a backhaul provider. I expect they will do the latter. I can't see them heavily investing in last mile FTTC/FTTH, not with the new aggressive Eircom, UPC firing on all cylinders and a new powerful player in the ESB.

    Actually now that I think of it, I'm surprised BT Ireland didn't try harder to become the ESB's partner network for their rollout of FTTH!

    You hit the nail on the head with that post.


  • #528
    Nolars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,890 ✭✭✭Nolars


    http://www.eircom.net/efibreinfo/map/

    Maps been fixed.


  • #529
    dbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    Nolars wrote: »
    http://www.eircom.net/efibreinfo/map/

    Maps been fixed.

    Hmmmm on wholesale still says building in macroom exchange .............


  • #530
    ItHurtsWhenIP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭ItHurtsWhenIP


    Nolars wrote: »
    http://www.eircom.net/efibreinfo/map/

    Maps been fixed.

    There still seems to be a few blank areas on that map ... and my village is still down as sometime next year. :(


  • #531
    yuloni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭yuloni


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #532
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,094 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    yuloni wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Exactly it. You dont see LLU in rural areas.

    Large exchanges, lots of cabs, hit 40% live easily.
    Small exchanges, no LLU, eVDSL installed and running in a day, easy.
    Medium exchanges, not many cabs but have LLU, no EVDSL but not many cabs, cant make the 40% threshold easily.


  • #533
    dbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    ED E wrote: »
    Exactly it. You dont see LLU in rural areas.

    Large exchanges, lots of cabs, hit 40% live easily.
    Small exchanges, no LLU, eVDSL installed and running in a day, easy.
    Medium exchanges, not many cabs but have LLU, no EVDSL but not many cabs, cant make the 40% threshold easily.

    Air Fist pump , Groin thrust , another Fist pump . Say it with me now RURAL oh yeaaahh ! , finally lucked out with something in this godforsaken country .


  • #534
    ItHurtsWhenIP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭ItHurtsWhenIP


    yuloni wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    My village's exchange has Fibre run to it, it is most definitely not LLU but it is down for Jan-Jun 2016.

    Mind you there are only 166 (current) active telephone lines in it presently (my local linesman gave me that tidbit). That would certainly shoot up a small bit if it got eVDSL, but probably not enough to justify an earlier install. :(


  • #535
    ItHurtsWhenIP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭ItHurtsWhenIP


    dbit wrote: »
    Air Fist pump , Groin thrust , another Fist pump . Say it with me now RURAL oh yeaaahh ! , finally lucked out with something in this godforsaken country .

    If you had decent broadband you should start your own Youtube channel and video these rather than writing about them. ;)


  • #536
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,094 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    MMFITWGDV wrote: »
    My village's exchange has Fibre run to it, it is most definitely not LLU but it is down for Jan-Jun 2016.

    Mind you there are only 166 (current) active telephone lines in it presently (my local linesman gave me that tidbit). That would certainly shoot up a small bit if it got eVDSL, but probably not enough to justify an earlier install. :(

    If there are 166 lines now you'll probably find at least a third are PSTN only, and 50% of the remaining lines probably run further than 1700m. Not worth the DSLAM Rack unit only to populate it with 80 ports worth of cards. You'll be low low priority.


  • #537
    ItHurtsWhenIP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭ItHurtsWhenIP


    ED E wrote: »
    If there are 166 lines now you'll probably find at least a third are PSTN only, and 50% of the remaining lines probably run further than 1700m. Not worth the DSLAM Rack unit only to populate it with 80 ports worth of cards. You'll be low low priority.

    :(:(:(:(:(
    <sniff>
    Nobody loves us country folk!!!
    :P


  • #538
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    ED E wrote: »
    Exactly it. You dont see LLU in rural areas.

    Large exchanges, lots of cabs, hit 40% live easily.
    Small exchanges, no LLU, eVDSL installed and running in a day, easy.
    Medium exchanges, not many cabs but have LLU, no EVDSL but not many cabs, cant make the 40% threshold easily.
    This doesn't quite make sense to me, mathematically. The small exchanges scenario does but I don't get the distinction between medium and large exchanges. If one exchange has 3000 lines and what, 18 cabinets, it should have a roughly similar proportion of direct-to-exchange lines as another exchange with 10,000 lines and 50 to 55 cabinets.

    I would have thought the number of lines directly served by exchanges was more based on historical and local reasons, such as perhaps a "large" urban area which had an exchange and widespread phone line takeup before the P&T brought in cabinets or there was not much space for overground cabinets, like with Crown Alley and to a certain extent North Main exchanges in Dublin. According to the eircom wholesale website, Crown Alley is "live" with 4070 lines able to get VDSL2 but this has to be less than 40% of lines as it's got one of the largest number of phone lines in the country. Summerhill and Beggar's Bush have larger numbers of enabled lines even though Crown Alley serves more phone lines.


  • #539
    dbit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭dbit


    lucernarian wrote: »
    This doesn't quite make sense to me, mathematically. The small exchanges scenario does but I don't get the distinction between medium and large exchanges. If one exchange has 3000 lines and what, 18 cabinets, it should have a roughly similar proportion of direct-to-exchange lines as another exchange with 10,000 lines and 50 to 55 cabinets.

    I would have thought the number of lines directly served by exchanges was more based on historical and local reasons, such as perhaps a "large" urban area which had an exchange and widespread phone line takeup before the P&T brought in cabinets or there was not much space for overground cabinets, like with Crown Alley and to a certain extent North Main exchanges in Dublin. According to the eircom wholesale website, Crown Alley is "live" with 4070 lines able to get VDSL2 but this has to be less than 40% of lines as it's got one of the largest number of phone lines in the country. Summerhill and Beggar's Bush have larger numbers of enabled lines even though Crown Alley serves more phone lines.


    But Third parties looking to LLU would opt for heavier populated exchanges thats the driving factor in this speculation. ?No ?


  • #540
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,094 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    lucernarian wrote: »
    This doesn't quite make sense to me, mathematically. The small exchanges scenario does but I don't get the distinction between medium and large exchanges. If one exchange has 3000 lines and what, 18 cabinets, it should have a roughly similar proportion of direct-to-exchange lines as another exchange with 10,000 lines and 50 to 55 cabinets.

    I would have thought the number of lines directly served by exchanges was more based on historical and local reasons, such as perhaps a "large" urban area which had an exchange and widespread phone line takeup before the P&T brought in cabinets or there was not much space for overground cabinets, like with Crown Alley and to a certain extent North Main exchanges in Dublin. According to the eircom wholesale website, Crown Alley is "live" with 4070 lines able to get VDSL2 but this has to be less than 40% of lines as it's got one of the largest number of phone lines in the country. Summerhill and Beggar's Bush have larger numbers of enabled lines even though Crown Alley serves more phone lines.

    The point is where is likely to be LLU, but it was a generalization.

    CRA is a great example of the DF situation. A good 1000+ of the lines there are likely DF, possibly a lot more. But the building itself is pretty small, mostly offices from the look of it. There wouldnt be much floor space for MDF + AXES + DSLAMS + RSUs + OLTs + Aggregation as is, never mind LLU operator gear too.

    Of 900+ DSL exchanges only 100(think thats the figure?) have LLU. Its likely these are only medium to large exchanges. The really big exchanges are jammers Id say (remember these are the back rooms of old post offices. Its the more modern suburban exchanges that are most likely to have the room to accommodate LLU so my guess is thats where you'll see it most. eg Bray, large "Suburban" exchange, no marker for EVDSL.

    But again, generalization, each exchange has its own legacy setup and constraints.


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  • #541
    mailsanchu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 95 ✭✭mailsanchu


    when the wip exchanges becomes green then all the lines connected to the exchange will be able to get evdsl ?


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