Public sector pay increase

kippy · 28-04-2015 05:05PM

There is some awful nonsense being spouted here from both side of the divide.

darkpagandeath · 28-04-2015 05:07PM

Riskymove wrote: »

no, at this point the idea seems to be if a fireman performs his duties to the highest level resulting in less fires...he should be fired as he is no longer needed

So you are saying there are to many already ? You know if they perform ?

BoatMad · 28-04-2015 05:09PM

uch wrote: »

Debt level was caused by Banking, a Private industry, nothing to do with PS

primary issue with state funding was the current deficit , that was unconnected to the banking re finance. That state deficit is directly connected to the PS employment costs , which are the biggest single item in that current budget.

Look at the PS expansion from 1995, we have over 100,000 extra PS staff, these all have to be paid for.

Banking debt was primary raised via raiding the pension reserve ( no borrowing ) and promissory notes ( in effect printing euros)

Tobyglen · 28-04-2015 05:09PM

uch wrote: »

Debt level was caused by Banking, a Private industry, nothing to do with PS

Simply not true. Over bloated public sector had a huge impact. Wages & Numbers spiraled in the boom years to unsustainable levels.

darkpagandeath · 28-04-2015 05:10PM

JPF82 wrote: »

This is one of the most depressing threads I have ever read. A great display of the Irish mind set of knock everyone based on the problems with a few. Some of the worst customer service I have received has come from private sector companies. I have had the displeasure of dealing with a few jobsworths in dealing with social welfare in the past also.

Both sides here don't understand what the other jobs entail. BTW, I would agree with the need for greater efficiencies in some Public Sector Areas.

As an aside, I remember starting work in the funds industry in Dublin in 2005, earning €500 per week and getting mocked by a young builder I shared the house with because he earned more and had a poor leaving cert to his name. I'm sure when the sh!t hit the fan a few years later he wouldn't have been so cocky. I admit I was jealous that he could earn more than me after I had gone to college, but I understood it was my choice.

As it happens, I am now in the final stages of qualifying to be a teacher and taking a huge pay cut to go from the private sector to public to do something I really enjoy and have a passion for. Again, I made this choice myself and I won't go around bemoaning that others with less qualifications than myself will earn more money in the private sector.

Here it just seems people are miserable with their lot and hate to see other do better than them. Get over that mind set and you will enjoy life. I admit, improvements need to be made in certain areas of the Public Sector, but don't go around disguising jealousy as genuine concern for the nation.

Nope just wondering why our PS are paid some of the highest wages in the EZ Simple really.

bjork · 28-04-2015 05:10PM

Top-heavy fire service costing vital frontline
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/topheavy-fire-service-costing-vital-frontline-26726421.html

As cutbacks bite, fire stations have shut, firefighter job vacancies go unfilled, and millions have been hacked off the fire service budget -- yet there are hundreds of high-earning senior fire officers, research by the Sunday Independent has discovered.
"Compared with other jurisdictions the droves of senior managers is extraordinary," one source in the sector said.

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians

Tobyglen · 28-04-2015 05:13PM

Riskymove wrote: »

using a formula based on purchasing power

the report also says that Irish teachers spend more time in the classroom than others which, surprisingly, doesn't feature in these discussions much!

Primary yes, secondary no. Teachers in Ireland are well paid in average comparisons to counterparts in Europe on almost every scale.

Riskymove · 28-04-2015 05:13PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So you are saying there are to many already ? You know if they perform ?

see above about moving goalposts

Riskymove · 28-04-2015 05:15PM

bjork wrote: »

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians

and again just move on

the discussion was about measuring performance

of course there are no solutions provided so instead it moves on to there being too many Fire chiefs!!:rolleyes:

evolving_doors · 28-04-2015 05:15PM

scary wrote: »

So other than averages it's all just speculative so.

In relation to the employment survey cso 20090, it just shows that its comparing apples with oranges.
Main thing is, is that qualification levels in PS are higher... so, shock horror... their pay is higher (on average of course).

bjork · 28-04-2015 05:17PM

Riskymove wrote: »

and again just move on

the discussion was about measuring performance

of course there are no solutions provided so instead it moves on to there being too many Fire chiefs!!:rolleyes:

I told you the parameters

Better response times
Training in cutting edge methods
Fitness

You refuse to acknowledge that

KomradeBishop · 28-04-2015 05:19PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Borrowing to increase debt/gdp ratio to spend on wages is not sustainable.

Money gained from long term borrowing bond markets should be used to increase long term economic potential you do this by upgrading infrastructure not paying higher wages.

You're trying to shift discussion back to how money is spent, changing the definition of 'sustainable' again - I already said we are talking about debt sustainability.

Whether government spending through debt is sustainable or not, depends on whether the interest on the debt is sustainable - interest on debt is at its lowest level for at least 30 years, so it's perfectly possible to spend sustainably.

The specifics of 'how to spend' come after this - whatever way you or I think is the best way to increase spending or reduce taxes, the fact is that the low interest rates on debt, means that there is a sustainable way of increasing debt and spending in this manner.

Riskymove · 28-04-2015 05:19PM

bjork wrote: »

Better response times
Training in cutting edge methods
Fitness

so if the firemen doesn't get training as the budgets are cut and they don't have enough fire crews so response times are not improved

but they are fit and work their hardest

How would you rate individual performance?

BoatMad · 28-04-2015 05:21PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

In relation to the employment survey cso 20090, it just shows that its comparing apples with oranges.
Main thing is, is that qualification levels in PS are higher... so, shock horror... their pay is higher (on average of course).

Thats a abuse of the statistics, many PS do third level qualifications because simply having a masters etc gets you more money , even if its not work related.

In the private sector , credentalism , while important, is less valuable then ability and experience. A factor sadly lacking from promotion decisions in the PS

No one should get more money simply because they have qualification x or Y.

Riskymove · 28-04-2015 05:23PM

BoatMad wrote: »

No one should get more money simply because they have qualification x or Y.

surely the point of being better qualified is part of the reason of getting a better job or more responsibility?

BoatMad · 28-04-2015 05:25PM

Riskymove wrote: »

surely the point of being better qualified is part of the reason of getting a better job or more responsibility?

but just being paid to have credentials isn't a good idea. If the PS was a builder firms, brickies would all be doing masters at night to get the increment.

28-04-2015 05:27PM

bjork wrote: »

Top-heavy fire service costing vital frontline
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/topheavy-fire-service-costing-vital-frontline-26726421.html

As cutbacks bite, fire stations have shut, firefighter job vacancies go unfilled, and millions have been hacked off the fire service budget -- yet there are hundreds of high-earning senior fire officers, research by the Sunday Independent has discovered.
"Compared with other jurisdictions the droves of senior managers is extraordinary," one source in the sector said.

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians

It's the same across the board and not just within the PS either. Older workers haven't been harmed directly too much in the last few years.

Riskymove · 28-04-2015 05:27PM

BoatMad wrote: »

but just being paid to have credentials isn't a good idea. If the PS was a builder firms, brickies would all be doing masters at night to get the increment.

the only part of PS I am aware of that rewards a certain qualification is in teaching where if you get a masters in Education you get an increase

I am not aware of any sector that gives more pay simply for having ANY qualification

can you provide any ideas?

BoatMad · 28-04-2015 05:33PM

Riskymove wrote: »

the only part of PS I am aware of that rewards a certain qualification is in teaching where if you get a masters in Education you get an increase

I am not aware of any sector that gives more pay simply for having ANY qualification

can you provide any ideas?

teaching doesn't require a masters in education to get the increment. its broader then that.

the PS always had quite a high standard of entry, compared to private industry ( primarily because private industry is much broader then the PS) , but salaries were lower because of the reasons I gave, The effect of powerful unions and profligate Governments that attempted to " buy" industrial peace, along with a massive expansion in PS numbers has led to the current unsustainable situation.

remember the infamous " it will be like walking up to an ATM" statement

jmayo · 28-04-2015 05:39PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

We have the lowest interest rate on government bonds/debt for over 30 years right now - we should be expanding the budget deficit (both through spending and tax reductions), to grow the economy, given that doing so would be so cheap to do right now - and then bring it back to surplus when we have full private sector employment.

If you are up to your ass in debt, sometimes it is wise not to dig any deeper.

Have you been giving advise to Greek government by any chance ?

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Pointless trying to pay down our national debt, when it can be expanded sustainably (due to quarter-century-low interest rates), when we aren't even running at full economic capacity yet - when we've got everyone back working, i.e. when tax income is at its maximum potential and the economy is at full speed, that is when you pay down debts, as you can pay them back much faster then.

Would you care to tell us for how much of the history of this state we had full employment ?
Without emigration this state would have even more unemployed both today and throughout it's history.
We only ever had full employment for a few years during the height of our bubble.
Reckoning on a return to full employment is one hell of an assumption when you look at this country's history.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Every government on the planet borrows money - whether it's a good idea or not depends on whether the borrowing is sustainable, and the sustainability is determined primarily by the interest rate (currently at its lowest level in more than 30 years), not by the overall level of debt.

Surely the rates we can achieve is dependent to some degree on our overall debt levels and thus the sustainability of the debt is dependent on the debt levels as well as our growth.

rangler1 · 28-04-2015 05:40PM

Surely if there's more money for the public service it should be used to give the public a service.
We're waiting for hospital treatments/ surgery, we've overcrowded schools, it looks like we won't have a water supply in a another while, not enough guards, not enough help for children with special needs, media says they're swamped with work, I consider myself swamped with work when I'm working six or seven 12 hr days/ wk......a big pay rise wont solve any of the above problems, but longer working hrsand more staff will for the same money

KomradeBishop · 28-04-2015 05:43PM

jmayo wrote: »

If you are up to your ass in debt, sometimes it is wise not to dig any deeper.

Have you been giving advise to Greek government by any chance ?

Learn basic economics/accounting rather than reaching for bollocks retorts and hyperbole: Debt sustainability is determined by the interest rate on the debt, which is at its lowest level for over 30 years now with Ireland (and the highest level in years for Greece).

BoatMad · 28-04-2015 05:45PM

Originally Posted by KomradeBishop View Post
We have the lowest interest rate on government bonds/debt for over 30 years right now - we should be expanding the budget deficit (both through spending and tax reductions), to grow the economy, given that doing so would be so cheap to do right now - and then bring it back to surplus when we have full private sector employment

.
If you are up to your ass in debt, sometimes it is wise not to dig any deeper.

Have you been giving advise to Greek government by any chance ?

Actually I would agree with KB. our issue is that expansion should be limited to non recurring items the difficulty is reigning in current spending when the next downturn occurs.

Originally Posted by KomradeBishop View Post
Pointless trying to pay down our national debt, when it can be expanded sustainably (due to quarter-century-low interest rates), when we aren't even running at full economic capacity yet - when we've got everyone back working, i.e. when tax income is at its maximum potential and the economy is at full speed, that is when you pay down debts, as you can pay them back much faster then.

Would you care to tell us for how much of the history of this state we had full employment ?
Without emigration this state would have even more unemployed both today and throughout it's history.
We only ever had full employment for a few years during the height of our bubble.
Reckoning on a return to full employment is one hell of an assumption when you look at this country's history.

full employment is predicted within 2 years. again one cannot fault Kbs logic , however the issue is how long you can sustain an economy at full employment.

Originally Posted by KomradeBishop View Post
Every government on the planet borrows money - whether it's a good idea or not depends on whether the borrowing is sustainable, and the sustainability is determined primarily by the interest rate (currently at its lowest level in more than 30 years), not by the overall level of debt

.
Surely the rates we can achieve is dependent to some degree on our overall debt levels and thus the sustainability of the debt is dependent on the debt levels as well as our growth.

NO not really, its a fiat currency and we are in the middle of a massive money expansion , in effect endless amount of capital are available.

debt sustainabilty is more about investor confidence then actual ability to repay.

Galwayguy35 · 28-04-2015 05:51PM

Riskymove wrote: »

of course they all do

all private sector workers work fully without any slacking for 80 hours a week for half pay etc...

while all PS slack for 20 hours a week for double pay

yeah grand sure we know this

Well when you work for the person who owns the place you're damn right there is no slacking or the door will be shown fairly sharpish, seeing as the wages come out of his/her pocket.

Also many private sector workers, myself included ofton have to work weekends for a flat rate.

crusier · 28-04-2015 05:51PM

I begrudge anyone other than myself who gets a pay rise wheather they deserve it or not, i'm irish!

darkpagandeath · 28-04-2015 05:54PM

crusier wrote: »

I begrudge anyone other than myself who gets a pay rise wheather they deserve it or not, i'm irish!

:pac::pac::pac:

osarusan · 28-04-2015 05:58PM

bjork wrote: »

I told you the parameters

Better response times
Training in cutting edge methods
Fitness

You refuse to acknowledge that

No you didn't, you should they should put out more fires, and faster.

For heart surgeons, you said they should do more operations.

When the utter stupidity of this was pointed out to you, you moved the goalposts.

KomradeBishop · 28-04-2015 06:00PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Actually I would agree with KB. our issue is that expansion should be limited to non recurring items the difficulty is reigning in current spending when the next downturn occurs.

full employment is predicted within 2 years. again one cannot fault Kbs logic , however the issue is how long you can sustain an economy at full employment.

NO not really, its a fiat currency and we are in the middle of a massive money expansion , in effect endless amount of capital are available.

debt sustainabilty is more about investor confidence then actual ability to repay.

The thing about full employment, is that economies should be working at full employment 100% of the time - because when you think about it, when you have workers and resources/industry laying idle, that is a massive inefficient waste, which keeps our GDP far below potential.

If you have large public debts, you pay them off faster when you have full employment, as you're getting the most out of your economy then (and that keeps tax income at its maximum potential as well) - even if that means staying in high deficits, by (sustainably) increasing debt at the beginning, so government can employ the workers the private sector doesn't want (both providing employment, and boosting money going into the private sector).

The main important thing, is that you just need to avoid placing investment/employment into sectors of the economy going through a bubble - such as the property bubble in the 2000's; you can aim taxes at sectors going through a bubble, to deflate the bubble.

Iwasfrozen · 28-04-2015 06:00PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

You're trying to shift discussion back to how money is spent, changing the definition of 'sustainable' again - I already said we are talking about debt sustainability.

Whether government spending through debt is sustainable or not, depends on whether the interest on the debt is sustainable - interest on debt is at its lowest level for at least 30 years, so it's perfectly possible to spend sustainably.

The specifics of 'how to spend' come after this - whatever way you or I think is the best way to increase spending or reduce taxes, the fact is that the low interest rates on debt, means that there is a sustainable way of increasing debt and spending in this manner.

I'm glad you seem to agree long term money borrowed to fund wages is a bad idea.

Borrowing money when the interest rate is low is not automatically a good thing. The profit investment needs to be greater than the cost of the loan.

darkpagandeath · 28-04-2015 06:01PM

osarusan wrote: »

No you didn't, you should they should put out more fires, and faster.

When the utter stupidity of this was pointed out to you, you moved the goalposts.

What if there are no fires to put out ? Do you keep a high volume of staff just in-case ?

Public sector pay increase

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