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How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Would it bother you if the homosexuals were female?



    He'd probably go along to the sleepover too...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,010 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Bump for MarriagEquality. A YES Equality shop has opened it's doors from 11 AM today in Stephens Green Shopping Centre beside the Meteor Store across from the Yankee Candle shop. Get your gear here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,708 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    That is rather unfair imo
    why so?


    No, I understand where wp is coming from and yeah, he's right, because it looks like I'm taking it out on the child for their parents influencing them and I'm keeping my child away from their child or even children.

    I'm doing it because I don't want that influence rubbing off on my child. He comes out with stuff there sometimes that he sure as hell didn't get off us, and either he picks it up in school or he picks it up in the neighbourhood, but he knows it's wrong, because the odd time we've caught him at it and challenged him on it, we're usually able to tell where it's coming from, and I'd rather he didn't associate with people with those sorts of intolerant views towards other people (usually racist views or socioeconomic background slurs moreso than anything homophobic really).

    It's coming from their parents, but these children have minds of their own too, and that's what I teach my own child, is that he too has a mind of his own, and no shortage of people who are his friends, he's not so desperate for friends that he has to hang around with children with bad attitudes towards other people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I just don't understand the notion that you would be MORE likely to send your kids on a sleepover in certain situations. If the kid they're going on a sleepover isn't a dick and their parent or parents aren't assholes, what difference would it make if they were gay, straight, single or married and why would you prefer some of these over the other?
    As Bannasidhe points out, some parents do it to reflect on themselves, others may do it to give their child more worldly exposure. There will be many families who have little or no contact with gay couples, and especially gay parents.

    I never did, to my knowledge anyway. I can see how some parents would like to encourage their kids to see that these people live perfectly normal lives and to not stigmatise it in any way.

    When I was 12, my Mum was involved in a charity project in Jobstown. They were basically doing a week-long summer camp for free, for about 30 kids from the local area. All volunteers, all food for the kids, etc, provided for free.
    She took me out of school 3 days before the end of the school year (on my last year in that school too), and sent me to this camp. And she paid for me. She did explain to me before we went in that these kids' families didn't have a lot of money, so I should probably avoid talking about the latest and greatest toys or bragging about stuff that I have.

    Didn't really understand why she did it at the time, but it became clear to me years later that she wanted to broaden my horizons. I spent practically all of my time engaging and socialising with other kids just like me; comfortable middle-class kids who got a pile of presents and Xmas and birthdays. She wanted me to socialise with kids outside of this sphere and I came to realise that outside of the material stuff, they really were just kids like me living pretty normal lives, and not some kind of other species.

    This could very easily be the good intentions of a parent who would encourage their child to participate with the children of a gay couple.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    I just don't understand the notion that you would be MORE likely to send your kids on a sleepover in certain situations. If the kid they're going on a sleepover isn't a dick and their parent or parents aren't assholes, what difference would it make if they were gay, straight, single or married and why would you prefer some of these over the other?



    You could direct that exact question at the poster who originally implied that gay = child molester..... No?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    kylith wrote: »
    How so? Would you encourage a friendship with a child who had been influenced by their parents to be racist or sexist?

    I had friends whose parents had asshole opinions that never rubbed off on them. If the kid was spouting sh¡te then I'd have a different outlook but the opinions of the adult aren't always the opinions of the child…


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,075 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    why so?

    From what I've gathered you [or One Eyed Jack] wouldn't want your child be friends with someone whose parents are Homophobic?
    I don't believe that be fair on the children (jesus, I'm sounding like Mrs Lovejoy)
    Instead of their child being a negative influence perhaps your child would be a positive one on theirs :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,947 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    From what I've gathered you wouldn't want your child be friends with someone whose parents are Homophobic?
    I don't believe that be fair on the children (jesus, I'm sounding like Mrs Lovejoy)
    Instead of their child being a negative influence perhaps your child would be a positive one on theirs :)

    well not my child. I'm sure other peoples children are little angels but keep them away from me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    All of which has nothing to do with the post you actually made - which was to build up a nonsense and fantastical scenario of me forcibly sending a child to a home they do not want to go to just to satisfy some political ideal I may or may not hold.

    The only point I was making was that I would be more than happy sending my child to such a place in the knowledge they are going to experience a diversity of ways of life. I would welcome their exposure to scenarios that instil in them first hand the idea that there is not one template for the family that everyone either conforms to - or is somehow deficient.

    It is all well and good verbally teaching your children about diversity - but there is no substitute for seeing it in operation first hand - and seeing that such people are every bit as happy and stable and normal as any one else.

    I read it as he was taking the Michael out of a certain sort of person tbh (not any specific poster here!)and he was, in my experience as a lesbian mother, not a million miles off the mark when it comes to a certain kind of ohhhhh we are soo liberaaaal darlings kind of parents.

    I thought his comment was funny.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,947 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    From what I've gathered you [or One Eyed Jack] wouldn't want your child be friends with someone whose parents are Homophobic?
    I don't believe that be fair on the children (jesus, I'm sounding like Mrs Lovejoy)
    Instead of their child being a negative influence perhaps your child would be a positive one on theirs :)


    but to answer you question i wouldnt be friends with somebody who was homophobic. and if i had children i wouldnt want them near homophobes.


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  • Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I read it as he was taking the Michael out of a certain sort of person tbh and he was, in my experience as a lesbian mother, not a million miles off the mark when it comes to a certain kind of ohhhhh we are soo liberaaaal darlings kind of parents.

    I thought his comment was funny.

    As another user already has - I would certainly draw a distinction between the kind of parent who welcomes exposure to different ways of life - and the kind of parents who send their children off to the houses of the "other" to make themselves seem more PC or open minded. For your over exposure to the latter type - you certainly have my sympathy.

    All that said - either way it seems the other user's original earlier attempt to get people to express some kind of discomfort with the idea of our own children over nighting in such a household has more than fallen flat on its face and has essentially back fired to make him look worse than he already did.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,010 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,075 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    but to answer you question i wouldnt be friends with somebody who was homophobic. and if i had children i wouldnt want them near homophobes.

    Judging kids by their parents is extremely unfair - as poster said earlier, I know plenty of friends who have horrible parents (or indeed lovely parents with horrible children)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I read it as he was taking the Michael out of a certain sort of person tbh (not any specific poster here!)and he was, in my experience as a lesbian mother, not a million miles off the mark when it comes to a certain kind of ohhhhh we are soo liberaaaal darlings kind of parents.

    I thought his comment was funny.

    Cheers, Bannasidhe. Glad it wasn't lost on you.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Take a minute to read this folks..Blows MFMs nonsense & lies outta the water..
    There is something that is constantly getting under my skin in the lead up to marriage equality referendum. It is the complete lack of respect for research which has been carried out about the well-being of children raised in traditional and same-sex parented families by the ‘no’ campaign. This has even developed into a complete misrepresentation of research, to the point where the ‘no’ campaign is circulating disinformation which I can only assume is to mislead and confuse the voting public.
    If I can draw your attention to the following video clip, which is from the launch of the ‘Mothers and Fathers Matter’ campaign:
    After seeing this and the many sponsored posts on my facebook feed, I checked out the ‘Mothers and Fathers Matter’ website to try and find the research that they talk about. What I found was the following:
    'Mothers and Fathers Matter' quote a study which they claim defends their stance that "having a loving mother and father involved in the lives of children is particularly beneficial to everyone concerned." I can only assume they are stating that same-sex parents are at some sort of disadvantage and unequal. The study they quote is a Unicef Innocenti Report Card from 2007. These report cards try to give an idea of child well-being in rich countries.
    The paragraph they quote does not support what they say it actually does, so I decided to look the report card up myself. What I found was that there was never any distinction made between traditional and same-sex parented families. I decided to contact Unicef directly through the e-mail address included in the report and I asked two primary questions:
    1) Were same-sex families included in the families studied as part of this report?
    2) Is it fair based off the above quote that your report concludes that having a traditional family is more beneficial than having a same-sex family?
    I first got a clarification from Unicef’s Office of Research, they stated the following:
    1) No, there was no references to same sex families in the report or its background research. Even if same-sex families were present in national survey data (which I later discovered they were) on which some of the indicators were based, they were not identified as such.
    2) No.
    They also said that “It is very unfortunate that RC7 was used to imply that traditional families are in any way better for children than other families.”
    I also got a reply from the lead researcher of the Innocenti Report Cards of 2007 and 2013, Professor Jonathan Bradshaw of the University of York. His responses to my questions were as follows:
    1) Same sex families would have been included in the studies but not identified as a separate category.
    2) No, the quote does not say anything about same sex families – it refers to step and single parent families.
    He went on to state:
    “I don’t think RC7 or anyone has ever drawn conclusions about child well-being and same sex couples. I don’t think that sentence in RC7 drew on the evidence in the survey but more probably a review of the international literature. But he is talking about broken families not same sex families. In fact if we are talking about subjective well-being then there is no relationship with broken families. Anne Marie Brooks has completed an analysis of the Growing Up in Ireland study, which concludes that when you control for poverty and other things there is no relationship between family structure and child outcomes – and that is the conclusion of most modern studies.”
    He is correct – the majority of modern studies show there is no difference in child well being for a child from a traditional or same-sex parented family. When poverty and other variables are controlled for, family structure means nothing in relation to child-outcomes.
    So where does this leave us?
    The study 'Mothers and Fathers Matter' quote doesn’t support their argument. It strengthens the ‘Yes’ side, because same-sex families were included as families in the study. They misrepresent an international study conducted by Unicef (who supports marriage equality by the way) to defend a stance which can’t be defended by research. The study makes it’s conclusion in relation to broken families. Not same-sex families or families that may exist due to IVF or other forms of Assisted Human Reproduction.
    What I find disgraceful about this is the following. Mothers and Fathers Matter is run by an advisory group of individuals, some who have PhD’s, some of whom still work in third-level institutions and yet as academics, they have no respect for research and choose to misrepresent it.
    BUT WAIT! They left a note at the bottom of their resources page, just in case anyone actually caught on to their tactics:
    "Note: Research in this area is not directly relevant to the specific debate on families headed by same-sex couples but it is highly relevant to the overall debate about Article 41 of our Constitution which rightly recognises the unique value of the family based on marriage as presently defined in Irish Law."
    I see your note ‘Mothers and Fathers Matter’ and raise you one:
    Note: The act of putting a note at the end of your resources page does not excuse you from the act of mispresentation of research or the circulation of disinformation in support of your cause for which any actual evidence is significantly lacking.
    Might I suggest and edit to the 'Mothers and Fathers Matter' resources page?
    “Having LOVING PARENTS, involved in the lives of children, regardless of their gender, is particularly beneficial to everyone concerned. Many studies testify to this.”
    At least then they won’t be spreading lies and will be accurately reporting on the study.
    The advisory group of Mother’s and Father’s matter should be ashamed of the tactics they are using in the run up to the referendum. As a PhD candidate in the University of Limerick I have no respect for a campaign that warps, twists and outright lies about research that has been conducted. Research that in fact proves them wrong. People need to know this, they need to know they are being lied to. It only shows the complete lack of respect the 'no' campaign have for the irish voter. We have to do all that we can to convince people that a ‘Yes’ vote is the correct vote in this referendum. Otherwise we risk losing to a group of people who intentionally spread false information.

    http://keithjy.wix.com/mots#!Mothers-and-Fathers-Matter-The-Truth-Doesnt/c218b/5538ff430cf23d01644653ec


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,708 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    From what I've gathered you [or One Eyed Jack] wouldn't want your child be friends with someone whose parents are Homophobic?
    I don't believe that be fair on the children (jesus, I'm sounding like Mrs Lovejoy)
    Instead of their child being a negative influence perhaps your child would be a positive one on theirs :)


    Ahh you're not sounding like Mrs Lovejoy at all wp, honestly :D

    No I mean, your hope is great in theory, and honestly I'd love if that's the way it did work, and I'm not as such trying to shield him from anything (hell, I work with all sorts of people in various circumstances be they homeless or drug addicts or sex workers (they're great for teaching him geography and the history of their various countries! :D) so it's definitely not as though he's wrapped in cotton wool!

    But like a lot of things, and you'll especially notice this in schools, sometimes the one bad apple really can rot the whole barrel, and it's almost impossible to have one bad child removed from the school, and the child is picking up a lot of this stuff from home, but there's a point where you have to say - how much of it is being influenced by home, and how much of it is just the fact that the child is a hateful little brat?

    It's a tough call, but I'd sooner consider the health and welfare of my own child over one that I couldn't do very much about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    Judging kids by their parents is extremely unfair - as poster said earlier, I know plenty of friends who have horrible parents (or indeed lovely parents with horrible children)



    Almost as bad as judging adults by who they choose to love.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    As another user already has - I would certainly draw a distinction between the kind of parent who welcomes exposure to different ways of life - and the kind of parents who send their children off to the houses of the "other" to make themselves seem more PC or open minded. For your over exposure to the latter type - you certainly have my sympathy.

    All that said - either way it seems the other user's original earlier attempt to get people to express some kind of discomfort with the idea of our own children over nighting in such a household has more than fallen flat on its face and has essentially back fired to make him look worse than he already did.

    I reckon that the problem is that in your own need to be worthy you completely misplaced your ability to spot when a post is taking the piss. I've already stated that I'd have no issue with my kids spending time in any household once I know the children and the parent/parents (regardless of sexual orientation) are sound. You're the one looking for the pat on the back for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭arayess


    kylith wrote: »
    Why would you be? Do you think gay people are child abusers? More likely to be so than heterosexuals? Surely your daughter would be safer at a sleepover in a house with two gay men than a house with a heterosexual man.

    child abusers are child abusers it's nothing with orientation.
    I'm sure many of the abusers of boys are hetrosexual.

    you have made the same assumption you are giving out about.
    kylith wrote: »
    How so? Would you encourage a friendship with a child who had been influenced by their parents to be racist or sexist?

    my kid can make friends with whom they like.
    The parents can dress up as hitler at weekends for all I care - as it's not my place to prejudice a child based on what their parents do nor to encourage my kid to be friends or not with a particular child.

    Why should somebody judge my kid over what i do?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,947 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    Judging kids by their parents is extremely unfair - as poster said earlier, I know plenty of friends who have horrible parents (or indeed lovely parents with horrible children)

    possibly true. but if they are of an age where adult supervision is required then why would i put them in such a negative environment? If they want to be friends with such people when they are older then that is up to them. but at an age where children are attending sleepovers and the like the parents are responsible for ensuring their children are in the best environment possible. a homophobic environment is not the best environment possible.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭StewartGriffin


    I reckon that the problem is that in your own need to be worthy you completely misplaced your ability to spot when a post is taking the piss. I've already stated that I'd have no issue with my kids spending time in any household once I know the children and the parent/parents (regardless of sexual orientation) are sound. You're the one looking for the pat on the back for it.

    Seems everyone is tripping over each other to be offended in here. Good job an occasional No troll shows up, otherwise this place would implode.


  • Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I reckon that the problem is that in your own need to be worthy you completely misplaced your ability to spot when a post is taking the piss.

    Irregardless of whether it was intended as humor or not - having my words twisted into something I did not even imply is something I am going to distance myself from every time.
    You're the one looking for the pat on the back for it.

    False - I have sought no such thing directly or indirectly - I merely laid out my position. You appear to need to impute motives to me I do not have in order to justify a response that had nothing to do with anything I said.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,708 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    arayess wrote: »
    my kid can make friends with whom they like.
    The parents can dress up as hitler at weekends for all I care - as it's not my place to prejudice a child based on what their parents do nor to encourage my kid to be friends or not with a particular child.

    Why should somebody judge my kid over what i do?


    The problem occurs when their child or children start thinking it's perfectly acceptable to shout Nazi slurs or whatever at other children or adults, and in that case, I certainly do care about whether my child hangs around with them or not, in the same way as if the child or children were making homophobic slurs or comments about other children or adults, I wouldn't want my child associating with that sort of company either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,861 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    arayess wrote: »
    - as it's not my place to... encourage my kid to be friends or not with a particular child.
    I would say that it is your place, depending on the situation.

    As an extreme example - your child starts getting friendly with children who throw rocks at passing cars*. In this situation, would you not encourage your child to stay away from them when they are doing that?



    *and for those who love strawmen arguments, this is not a comparison, it is an example (an extreme one) of a situation where I think it becomes more evident that such a principle is misguided.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Irregardless of whether it was intended as humor or not - having my words twisted into something I did not even imply is something I am going to distance myself from every time.



    False - I have sought no such thing directly or indirectly - I merely laid out my position. You appear to need to impute motives to me I do not have in order to justify a response that had nothing to do with anything I said.

    You said this…
    Quite the opposite in fact as I would be MORE likely to want to send them there and to single parent households so they can see a greater variety of peoples lives.

    I gently poked fun at it. Bannasidhe, who has personal experience, understood where I was coming from with it. Get over it.

    And seriously… Irregardless?


  • Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You said this…

    Well aware of what I said thanks. Just distancing myself from your misrepresentation of it - and now more recently your imputing motives to having said it that are just as false. Get over it.
    And seriously… Irregardless?

    Not seeing the issue there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Did someone re-title this thread to 'pedantic bickering' while i was at the shops? :pac:

    It got redefined :(


  • Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Did someone re-title this thread to 'pedantic bickering' while i was at the shops? :pac:

    Sure we are all pretty much married now. Pedantic bickering is all but obligatory. :P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭sjb25


    Not a fan of Brendan or this show really but honestly couldn't have said it better myself what's all the fuss and the feckin world won't end....... Everybody has the right to do whatever they want
    http://m.independent.ie/entertainment/trending/whats-the-feckin-fuss-irelands-mammyinchief-mrs-brown-calls-for-marriage-equality-31177876.html


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,708 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Did someone re-title this thread to 'pedantic bickering' while i was at the shops? :pac:


    Reminds me of a classic quote from the film "Face/Off" where John Travolta plays an imposter in the life of the FBI agent trying to capture him, and he doesn't trust the guys wife, he goes -


    "This is starting to feel like a real marriage" :D


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