Graham Dwyer court case READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING

K4t · 22-04-2015 01:05AM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

In respect of your first question intelligence and ability to empathise are not at all linked. He clearly has not felt remorse .If he had done so he has had opportunity to express it but he has not done so.

Yes, I know, I said the possibility of showing remorse. As in it would be better for him and society were he to possibly reach a state of mind where he did show remorse, or at least attempt to do so, rather than him suffering self inflicted mental torture with no possibility of any sort of recovery for the rest of his life as some would prefer. And if it is not possible for him to reach that stage as you suspect, then surely wishing further punishment on someone who is not capable of such thinking, is in itself sadistic?

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

In our PC world it is considered distasteful to want another human to suffer, but I want him to suffer and I have no qualms about that.

Surely you don't want him to suffer, but rather others not to suffer because of him? Which is the idea of prison; removing those who do harm to others from society?

Dwarf.Shortage · 22-04-2015 01:08AM

K4t wrote: »

Surely you don't want him to suffer, but rather others not to suffer because of him? Which is the idea of prison; removing those who do harm to others from society?

If that was what I meant I would have said it.

Simon2015 · 22-04-2015 01:14AM

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

In our PC world it is considered distasteful to want another human to suffer, but I want him to suffer and I have no qualms about that.

Even the PC mob would claim that Dwyer has same human rights as you or me.

You coundn't make it up.

Allyall · 22-04-2015 01:48AM

K4t wrote: »

Of all the things I've read in this thread and about this case, that sentence is right up there with the most sadistic of them.

You're ONLY against the death penalty, because you want people to suffer worse fates than death? Scary.

Not me you were quoting, but I don't count him as people.

K4t wrote: »

Is it not enough that he has been imprisoned? Removed from society? What other kind of suffering do you wish him to endure? Beatings? Stabbing? Rape? Would you be willing to serve this punishment yourself to the man? Or would you be happy for others to do so?

K4t wrote: »

So you want him to suffer a sort of self inflicted mental torture? Do you not think that maybe he already has serious psychological and mental problems? But you would rather they be compounded while in prison than any sort of rehabilitation be attempted?

I would be happy to learn that every day somebody is pulling a bit of each fingernail out, and that Electrodes are constantly being moved around his body, so he doesn't become accustomed to the pain in a specific area.
I would be overjoyed to think that as each day passed, he was inflicting some sort of mental torture on himself.

I also find it odd that you are looking for the stuff he had downloaded on his computer, even if you were to tell me that you wanted it for research puroposes.

LadyAthame · 22-04-2015 02:05AM

Allyall wrote: »

I would be happy to learn that every day somebody is pulling a bit of each fingernail out, and that Electrodes are constantly being moved around his body, so he doesn't become accustomed to the pain in a specific area.
I would be overjoyed to think that as each day passed, he was inflicting some sort of mental torture on himself.

There are three types of people who like BDSM the sub masochist, the sado dominant and the switch. Some of those who the boundaries of mutual consent, fantasy and pleasure do the very things that you have mentioned. They enjoy them.

Now bear this in mind. You are talking about society being seduced into the sadist role only without the boundaries of consent, mutual pleasure and fantasy.

It's not justice. Society needs to learn to harness it's aggression and it's pleasure from aggression in a healthier way.

The other option is we would come to understand Dwyer's desire to hurt someone who was not enjoying it rather too closely.

I think if we were to do that we would grow just as mad as he is.

We could laugh at him in a brazen bull or put him on the rack. But then we have to make these things and people make money from them and then they will want to expand their business and and and and ...you get the picture. There is an industry of death in America and the justice system is not in control of it.

Having him partially hung, disemboweled and cut into quaters is something we should savor only in our minds.

Allyall · 22-04-2015 02:24AM

LadyAthame wrote: »

There are three types of people who like BDSM the sub masochist, the sado dominant and the switch. Some of those who the boundaries of mutual consent, fantasy and pleasure do the very things that you have mentioned. They enjoy them.

Now bear this in mind. You are talking about society being seduced into the sadist role only without the boundaries of consent, mutual pleasure and fantasy.

It's not justice. Society needs to learn to harness it's aggression and it's pleasure from aggression in a healthier way.

The other option is we would come to understand Dwyer's desire to hurt someone who was not enjoying it rather too closely.

I think if we were to do that we would grow just as mad as he is.

We could laugh at him in a brazen bull or put him on the rack. But then we have to make these things and people make money from them and then they will want to expand their business and and and and ...you get the picture. There is an industry of death in America and the justice system is not in control of it.

Having him partially hung, disemboweled and cut into quaters is something we should savor only in our minds.

TL:DR
Society, nuthin.
I'd like to hear he's suffering.

-

Just read the bottom bit.
I don't want him hung drawn and quartered, that would mean he's dead.

I'd take away his laptop for starters.. :pac:

But being more serious, I think I would like to know he's suffering.

Edit

There are nineteen types of bullsh!tter.

discodiva92 · 22-04-2015 02:26AM

Point I heard was why were the men outer in the case being kinky but not the women?This case if it was a rape case would have had no media coverage allowed.

LadyAthame · 22-04-2015 02:32AM

discodiva92 wrote: »

Point I heard was why were the men outer in the case being kinky but not the women?This case if it was a rape case would have had no media coverage allowed.

That is the point you heard?

Darci May was outed. She testified. The men who were named were witnesses in the trial. The other woman was not called as a witness.

LadyAthame · 22-04-2015 02:35AM

I agree though. The seeming lack of any public or media disquiet about the 'outing' of the men who had been involved with EOH was certainly noticeable. If they did nothing wrong then they did nothing wrong consent is consent etc.

I think it's more people are drawn to the focal point of the tragedy namely EOH and her family though. I don't know what the big issue is. They would hardly be participating in BDSM sessions if they felt there was anything instrinsically wrong with it. I know it might be embarrassing. Who knows perhaps they are married so that might be it. Discretion I would imagine is a cornerstone in that.

Other women were named however one particular woman in the video was not. The prosecution might have felt her testimony was not necessary and she might have been weak but she was not called. She was also an employee of a state body. Make of that what you will. Much has been made that a solicitor seemingly knew the accused in a certain 'fashion'.

I don't hold with outing men who did nothing wrong. But it's not the focal point of discussion for me. I imagine that is why you are not hearing it discussed. But they were named as witnesses though. The other woman was not. The American woman was called. She was named.

Unfortunately at this stage it seems many journalists know the woman's name and it's only a matter of time before she is named.

Also it is not a rape trial it was a murder trial. Perhaps these men should have had their identity protected. They only participated in what was consensual.

ALiasEX · 22-04-2015 02:40AM

nokia69 wrote: »

I wonder was just looking for some more free bondage gear

and all he found were a couple of old phones

Is that how you got your username?

brooke 2 · 22-04-2015 03:11AM

LadyAthame wrote: »

I think they had a fantastic gut instinct. And realized how serious the nature of the crime was.

The young Garda in Roundwood was brilliant. If he had not been as diligent as he was, it is very unlikely that Graham Dwyer would now be in jail.

The Gardai in Foxrock were hugely impressive also, but, am I the only one
to be less than enthused by the seemingly lacklustre effort by the Gardai
in Stepaside when EOH originally went
missing?

LadyAthame · 22-04-2015 03:20AM

brooke 2 wrote: »

The young Garda in Roundwood was brilliant. If he had not been as diligent as he was, it is very unlikely that Graham Dwyer would now be in jail.

The Gardai in Foxrock were hugely impressive also, but, am I the only one
to be less than enthused by the seemingly lacklustre effort by the Gardai
in Stepaside when EOH originally went
missing?

I think that station was shut down a year later. Not excusing it but it was in the process of being closed. Pratically every shop on one side of the street in Stepaside has been burgled since the garda station was closed.:rolleyes:

But yes you are correct to mention it.

discodiva92 · 22-04-2015 04:15AM

Nobody should have been outes in this trail
Surely a judge could put a total ban on media reporting

22-04-2015 07:06AM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

He mentioned the case of a young teenage girl brutally stabbed to death in Dublin and his only comment on it was to say what a lucky guy her killer was.

Did he make previous comments about Raoinead Murray's murder? I know Farah Noor of Scissor Sisters infamy did, but did Dwyer also say something? I could be getting mixed up.

pwurple · 22-04-2015 07:27AM

discodiva92 wrote: »

Nobody should have been outes in this trail
Surely a judge could put a total ban on media reporting

Justice needs to be conducted in public, not behind closed doors.

MouseTail · 22-04-2015 08:11AM

pwurple wrote: »

Justice needs to be conducted in public, not behind closed doors.

Justice not only needs to be done in public, it needs to be seen to be done. Had this case been conducted behind closed doors, the public would have been dissatisfied the conviction was safe. It was all the small details that added up which led the jury to convict.

realdanbreen · 22-04-2015 08:23AM

Smidge wrote: »

I would like to say that I believe in adult sexual relations in whatever shape way or form they come in. You want to dress as a baby, grand. You want a bit of light whipping while having an orange stuck in your gob by a 6'2 woman who looks like Arnie? Good for you, enjoy it.
But here's the kicker.....within reason.

Just wondering: I have searched the house high up and low down and can't find an Orange. Could I use a Lemon instead?

Laois_Man · 22-04-2015 10:46AM

Omackeral wrote: »

Did he make previous comments about Raoinead Murray's murder? I know Farah Noor of Scissor Sisters infamy did, but did Dwyer also say something? I could be getting mixed up.

Yes he did. He just referred to how her murderer and the murder of that woman in the Phoenix Park was never found.

When asked at one stage by Ms O’Hara about the likelihood of getting away with such a crime, he said: “I will. No one ever caught for Raonaid Murray or homeless woman in Phoenix Park.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/more-than-one-woman-under-graham-dwyers-dark-spell-320871.html

The latter was a reference to the unsolved murder of Eugenia Bratis who was stabbed to death in the Phoenix Park in August 2009.

I believe in the Murray murder at least, the Gardai have already checked Dwyers DNA profile against that of her murderer and he has been cleared. Which is grand, as long as they are sure they definitely have the DNA of her murderer!

stickybookmark · 22-04-2015 10:57AM

what i think was fascinating about this case was the insight it gave into the mind of such a person via the thousands of text messages. correct me if i'm wrong but i think never before in a case like this were the motives and modus operandi of the killer laid so bare. Via the texts he sent to Elaine he discussed all the questions the families of those kind of murder victims ask 'why' 'how' 'why her' etc. he discussed the reason he wanted to kill, how he planned to do it, what kind of victims he thought were suitable, how he planned to get away with it everything. to me that was fascinating and perhaps sheds some light on why similar killers are motivated to do what they do (sexual gratification of stabbing a woman to death during sex) it's not a craving i ever realised middle class 'normal' people like Dwyer possessed. it has really opened my eyes to be honest, and not in a good way

brooke 2 · 22-04-2015 01:27PM

eviltwin wrote: »

The hurt caused to the Dwyer family is not over his affair, it's over the fact he killed a person! The extreme tastes were shared by many, as long as they were consensual participants it's no one's business. Dwyer made it everyone's business by bringing in innocent parties and targeting a vulnerable woman he could easily manipulate.

I imagine the affair caused excruciating pain to Dwyer's wife!! I don't know how the woman is still sane after realising that, at the same time as she was looking forward
to the birth of her second child, her husband was resuming bdsm activity with a
woman whom he eventually killed. ðŸ˜¬ It is heartbreaking enough to discover that
one's husband is cheating at such a time, but, hearing the texts from GD to EOH, a
few days after the baby's birth, in which he said that he could not get away as 'there
were too many people coming to the house to see the baby', must have made Gemma
Dwyer's head explode!!!! It is no surprise that she made the supreme effort to
appear in court to give evidence against him, something which Justice Tony Hunt
wholeheartedly acknowledged. His compassion and empathy for the traumatised woman was absolutely convincing.

So, I would contend that there was a great deal of hurt caused to at least one Dwyer family member by the affair.

Allyall · 22-04-2015 01:28PM

stickybookmark wrote: »

it's not a craving i ever realised middle class 'normal' people like Dwyer possessed. it has really opened my eyes to be honest, and not in a good way

It's not a craving I ever realised anyone had.. But obviously do..

It's messed up..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/analyst-reveals-text-conversations-between-elaine-ohara-and-alleged-graham-dwyer-phone-665720.html

Corvo · 22-04-2015 01:45PM

Allyall wrote: »

It's not a craving I ever realised anyone had.. But obviously do..

It's messed up..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/analyst-reveals-text-conversations-between-elaine-ohara-and-alleged-graham-dwyer-phone-665720.html

I'm sorry I read that.

_Whimsical_ · 22-04-2015 01:45PM

Allyall wrote: »

It's not a craving I ever realised anyone had.. But obviously do..

It's messed up..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/analyst-reveals-text-conversations-between-elaine-ohara-and-alleged-graham-dwyer-phone-665720.html

Me too, I never imagine anyone was into anything like this at all, and I'm pretty horrified at it.

During the trial videos were shown to the jury that featured Dwyer acting very violently with other women with their consent( or as much consent as Elaine gave, I suppose we'll never know what their mental state was). Among them was a top ranking female civil servant with responsibility for what was described as "very sensitive matters" in the media. Graham Dwyer has threatened to "out" other highly respected professionals and public figures who were also involved in that scene.
Makes you wonder...

I realise it sounds a prejudiced note to some but personally I can't really imagine how you could have a sexual interest in extreme violence, hurting others or yourself in the manner of Graham Dwyer, and be fully responsible. I feel uncomfortable at the thought of people deep into this stuff in positions of professional responsibility for the public. It's something I think really needs to hold a taboo, even stigma , within society.

eviltwin · 22-04-2015 01:50PM

brooke 2 wrote: »

I imagine the affair caused excruciating pain to Dwyer's wife!! I don't know how the woman is still sane after realising that, at the same time as she was looking forward
to the birth of her second child, her husband was resuming bdsm activity with a
woman whom he eventually killed. ðŸ˜¬ It is heartbreaking enough to discover that
one's husband is cheating at such a time, but, hearing the texts from GD to EOH, a
few days after the baby's birth, in which he said that he could not get away as 'there
were too many people coming to the house to see the baby', must have made Gemma
Dwyer's head explode!!!! It is no surprise that she made the supreme effort to
appear in court to give evidence against him, something which Justice Tony Hunt
wholeheartedly acknowledged. His compassion and empathy for the traumatised woman was absolutely convincing.

So, I would contend that there was a great deal of hurt caused to at least one Dwyer family member by the affair.

I wasn't implying it didn't Brooke but the affair is small in comparison to her husband being a sadist who murdered a woman. That's the only reason he's in the news, a normal affair Mrs Dwyer might have never found out, forgiven him, whatever. It happens all the time, people move on. Finding out the man you share your bed with was secretly planning to kill someone is a whole other level.

brooke 2 · 22-04-2015 03:39PM

LadyAthame wrote: »

I think that station was shut down a year later. Not excusing it but it was in the process of being closed. Pratically every shop on one side of the street in Stepaside has been burgled since the garda station was closed.:rolleyes:

But yes you are correct to mention it.

I heard someone - Paul Williams? - draw attention to the issue of the closure of
small stations when he was praising the great work done by the gardaí in this
case. It does not bear thinking about if the one in Roundwood had been shut when
the three lads found some of EOH's effects. Would a garda have come out from
Greystones/Bray to search in the mud over a number of days as that young Garda
O'Donoghue from Roundwood actually did? I doubt it!! If it is not too facile a
word to use in such tragic circumstances, that garda was a hero whose diligence
and instinct have impressed all.

However, I was left totally underwhelmed and even gobsmacked at the unbelievably
lacklustre efforts by the gardai in Stepaside. It galled me to hear Williams using
the EOH case to slam the closure of the station, considering what we heard from
some of those gardai in court. When a now retired detective was asked if he did
not think it unusual to find chains in the bedside locker, iirc, he replied that 'it was
strange alright'!! We subsequently found out that GD had hung a noose in EOH's
apartment, which she had asked him to remove. A rope was found in her
apartment after she went missing - this was mentioned by the detective. When
another garda was asked if the rope was included in the items shown in court,
there was no sign of it! Also, the images of GD were available on the CCTV after
she went missing. As he was a stranger to the complex, who visited quite often,
and his name was on her computer when she downloaded all her contacts onto
it, one would wonder why he was not at least questioned.

Perhaps, in hindsight, it was better that they did not manage to get much done,
as it seems like Elaine was crying out from the grave to get justice for her brutal murder. The number of coincidences which eventually led to the discovery of her
remains and GD's conviction for her killing almost seemed to have been
orchestrated by a supernatural force!!

Her remains being found on Friday the
13th, which was also GD's birthday, was yet another freaky coincidence.

ncmc · 22-04-2015 03:46PM

The more I hear about this case, the more I am staggered he didn’t put in a plea of manslaughter or assisted suicide. If you look at the details the guards had from her BDSM profile – she was clearly into hardcore BDSM, in her profile she listed knife play and blood letting as things she was in to. She had already met with a couple of men from the sites who said that her tastes were too extreme for them. She had also stated that she wanted a man to kill her in the course of one of their games. It was also on her file in the hospital that she no longer wanted to live but didn’t want to kill herself. All of this would have tied in nicely with either an assisted suicide defence or the idea of a sex game gone wrong. It would also have explained the haphazard way he disposed of her things – it could have indicated that the whole thing was unplanned or that he was in the grip of panic. He may very well have served similar time as Lillis if he had gone down this route.

It was a very risky move to plead not guilty, it was always going to be an all or nothing situation. Either he was going to walk away a free man or spend the rest of his life in jail. I think it says a lot about the man that his sense of being untouchable probably has caused him to be locked away for the rest of his life.

I wonder what his defence team thought about it, how much of the states case would they have been aware off? Surely they realised that the evidence was very damning, even with the absence of a cause of death.

Stheno · 22-04-2015 03:50PM

I always wonder how the defence team in cases like this cope with what must be a distasteful job

Valetta · 22-04-2015 03:55PM

Stheno wrote: »

I always wonder how the defence team in cases like this cope with what must be a distasteful job

€€€ $$$ £££

ohnonotgmail · 22-04-2015 03:56PM

ncmc wrote: »

The more I hear about this case, the more I am staggered he didn’t put in a plea of manslaughter or assisted suicide. If you look at the details the guards had from her BDSM profile – she was clearly into hardcore BDSM, in her profile she listed knife play and blood letting as things she was in to. She had already met with a couple of men from the sites who said that her tastes were too extreme for them. She had also stated that she wanted a man to kill her in the course of one of their games. It was also on her file in the hospital that she no longer wanted to live but didn’t want to kill herself. All of this would have tied in nicely with either an assisted suicide defence or the idea of a sex game gone wrong. It would also have explained the haphazard way he disposed of her things – it could have indicated that the whole thing was unplanned or that he was in the grip of panic. He may very well have served similar time as Lillis if he had gone down this route.

It was a very risky move to plead not guilty, it was always going to be an all or nothing situation. Either he was going to walk away a free man or spend the rest of his life in jail. I think it says a lot about the man that his sense of being untouchable probably has caused him to be locked away for the rest of his life.

I wonder what his defence team thought about it, how much of the states case would they have been aware off? Surely they realised that the evidence was very damning, even with the absence of a cause of death.

just as a point of information his defence team would have been provided with all of the evidence against him in advance of the trial. its a legal requirement.

Stheno · 22-04-2015 03:57PM

Valetta wrote: »

€€€ $$$ £££

I'm sure I rwas that Dwyer was on legal aid. Doesn't that impact the fees for the legal team?

Graham Dwyer court case *READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING*

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Graham Dwyer court case READ FIRST POST BEFORE POSTING