Gardai Investigating Voter-Registration promo

Little CuChulainn · 22-04-2015 12:21PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

This is a referendum. by their nature they are political. Whether it is considered a human rights issue by some is irrelevant. the gardai cannot show bias towards either side. the gardai themselves admit this but you seem to know better.

There is no rule against it, that's likely why they described merely as inappropriate. It's a moot point for me really because I don't feel the Gardaí were advocating either side. If a Garda is photographed shaking the hand of Gerry Adams should he be disciplined for being a member of Sinn Fein. People can read whatever they want into the photos but none of the Gardaí involved did anything overtly political or advocated either side.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so because you dont like what they say you simply ignore it.

Generally anything that comes from the press office is not worth reading. It's motivation is almost solely PR and damage reduction.

bjork · 22-04-2015 12:52PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There is no requirement on Gardaí to be apolitical, the requirement is not to be affiliated with a political party. When it comes to human rights and equality, there is no law or rule that I am aware of that prevents Gardaí getting involved on either side.

......

Are you sure about that?

evolving_doors · 22-04-2015 01:00PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There is no requirement on Gardaí to be apolitical, the requirement is not to be affiliated with a political party. When it comes to human rights and equality, there is no law or rule that I am aware of that prevents Gardaí getting involved ....

Actually read the article again and refer to Michael Mcdowell assertion on their oath at the time of the setting up of the garda reserve.

gandalf · 22-04-2015 01:02PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

They do.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDB41xGW8AENzPF.png

Delighted to see that, thanks for the link.

I assume all the detractors here will condemn this as well then?

Or will they realise that a Garda has to be present to validate a voter registration form?

evolving_doors · 22-04-2015 01:09PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There is no rule against it, that's likely why they described merely as inappropriate. It's a moot point for me really because I don't feel the Gardaí were advocating either side. If a Garda is photographed shaking the hand of Gerry Adams should he be disciplined for being a member of Sinn Fein. People can read whatever they want into the photos but none of the Gardaí involved did anything overtly political or advocated either side.

Gardai are not allowed to be members of a political party. So yes, he should be disciplined.

Although it does raise an interesting point when Enda Kenny was canvassing and he crossed the road to shake hands with the garda whistleblower (who was in uniform). Although the situation was slightly different in that the whistleblower guard wasnt at a staged event publicly endorsing EK.

Anyway,
Again: The photocall was Organised by Yes Equality.
Two people in the photo and one of them was publically advocating a Yes vote.
And by your logic the Garda was there for a completely different reason... to promote registration!

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Generally anything that comes from the press office is not worth reading. It's motivation is almost solely PR and damage reduction.

Just because you dont like/read it is beside the point.

ohnonotgmail · 22-04-2015 01:11PM

gandalf wrote: »

Delighted to see that, thanks for the link.

I assume all the detractors here will condemn this as well then?

Or will they realise that a Garda has to be present to validate a voter registration form?

No problem condemning this as well. In fact i have already said on this thread that i would condemn this irrespective of which side of the campaign they are working with. Otherwise i wouldnt be very impartial about garda impartiality would i?

gandalf · 22-04-2015 01:22PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No problem condemning this as well. In fact i have already said on this thread that i would condemn this irrespective of which side of the campaign they are working with. Otherwise i wouldnt be very impartial about garda impartiality would i?

But you do realise that a Garda has to be present to validate the registration forms?

How do you suggest this is facilitated?

ohnonotgmail · 22-04-2015 01:25PM

gandalf wrote: »

But you do realise that a Garda has to be present to validate the registration forms?

How do you suggest this is facilitated?

turn up, sit at a desk (one that doesnt have badges or literature promoting one side or next to anybody promoting one side) and confirm people's identity. No photocalls, nothing else. Just sit a desk on their own and check IDs. They shouldnt need the help of anybody else.

gandalf · 22-04-2015 01:58PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

turn up, sit at a desk (one that doesnt have badges or literature promoting one side or next to anybody promoting one side) and confirm people's identity. No photocalls, nothing else. Just sit a desk on their own and check IDs. They shouldnt need the help of anybody else.

How far away should they be? A metre, 10 metres, 100 metres, another building

It makes sense that they be in the vicinity of where interested parties are picking up and filling in the forms.

Yes it was unfortunate that a few badges were on the same desk the Garda was sat at (and I only saw one picture where that happened) but it is hardly one to merit all the hand wringing.

The photoshoot was about Registering people to vote and not directly endorsing a yes vote so it's a storm in a teacup as far as I am concerned.

ohnonotgmail · 22-04-2015 02:02PM

gandalf wrote: »

How far away should they be? A metre, 10 metres, 100 metres, another building

It makes sense that they be in the vicinity of where interested parties are picking up and filling in the forms.

Why would campaigners for either side need to be there at all? If the gardai feel it is important to encourage people to register are they not capable of organising their own event?

gandalf wrote: »

Yes it was unfortunate that a few badges were on the same desk the Garda was sat at (and I only saw one picture where that happened) but it is hardly one to merit all the hand wringing.

No handwringing. just pointing out that the garda should not have allowed themselves to be used in that way. they should be smarter than that. Or am i giving them too much credit?

gandalf wrote: »

The photoshoot was about Registering people to vote and not directly endorsing a yes vote so it's a storm in a teacup as far as I am concerned.

The photoshoot was organised by the Yes campaign. The garda should not have attended. The gardai have acknowledged this already.

Little CuChulainn · 22-04-2015 02:17PM

bjork wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

That's what the oath says.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Actually read the article again and refer to Michael Mcdowell assertion on their oath at the time of the setting up of the garda reserve.

Irrelevant what he said. The oath is specifically in relation to being a member of a political party or secret society.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Gardai are not allowed to be members of a political party. So yes, he should be disciplined.

But he isn't a member of a political party. He just shook a mans hand.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Why would campaigners for either side need to be there at all? If the gardai feel it is important to encourage people to register are they not capable of organising their own event?

They've done that too. The same Garda in the photo is shown at a completely neutral booth in another photo.

ohnonotgmail · 22-04-2015 02:19PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

They've done that too. The same Garda in the photo is shown at a completely neutral booth in another photo.

Thats super. No need to be at a partisan one then is there?

Little CuChulainn · 22-04-2015 02:20PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Thats super. No need to be at a partisan one then is there?

They've been to neutral ones, Yes ones and No ones. Reach as many people as possible. All you've focused on is the Yes one.

SeanW · 22-04-2015 02:20PM

gandalf wrote: »

But you do realise that a Garda has to be present to validate the registration forms?

How do you suggest this is facilitated?

By having the Garda act independently of the campaigns, having a totally independent stall in the university or wherever.

Then both camps can give say: "There's a Garda at Place X at Time Y that will witness and stamp your voter registration forms. But the guard is not taking a stance, not posing with campaign materials, not connected with any entity pushing a preference in any way whatsoever.

If some No camps got a guard to perform this function at their event, I object to this as well. Remember this is not a Yes/No issue as I intend to vote Yes.

gandalf · 22-04-2015 02:23PM

SeanW wrote: »

By having the Garda act independently of the campaigns, having a totally independent stall in the university or wherever.

Then both camps can give say: "There's a Garda at Place X at Time Y that will witness and stamp your voter registration forms. But the guard is not taking a stance, not posing with campaign materials, not connected with any entity pushing a preference in any way whatsoever.

If some No camps got a guard to perform this function at their event, I object to this as well. Remember this is not a Yes/No issue as I intend to vote Yes.

No I understand where you are coming from. Obviously I don't feel the same way, I think having a Garda present at the same location makes sense logistically.

Personally having a person in uniform next to stall supporting one stance or another will not influence the way I would vote. If it does influence a persons voting decision then that person shouldn't really have a vote in the first place imho.

ohnonotgmail · 22-04-2015 02:31PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

They've been to neutral ones, Yes ones and No ones. Reach as many people as possible. All you've focused on is the Yes one.

but why do they need to be at partisan events? they shouldnt be there.

ohnonotgmail · 22-04-2015 02:33PM

gandalf wrote: »

No I understand where you are coming from. Obviously I don't feel the same way, I think having a Garda present at the same location makes sense logistically.

Personally having a person in uniform next to stall supporting one stance or another will not influence the way I would vote. If it does influence a persons voting decision then that person shouldn't really have a vote in the first place imho.

it might not influence the way you would vote but given the average intelligence of the population there is no guarantee it wont influence some. So they shouldnt be there at all. Cant really introduce an intelligence test for voters. Interferes with the whole democracy thing.

Little CuChulainn · 22-04-2015 02:34PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but why do they need to be at partisan events? they shouldnt be there.

There's really two ways to be apolitical. You can be all inclusive or all exclusive. The Gardaí are being all inclusive, accommodating both sides of the debate. This is generally the approach taken by community Gardaí in particular in most areas of their work. You've chosen to assign a secondary motive to this policy.

evolving_doors · 22-04-2015 03:13PM

gandalf wrote: »

But you do realise that a Garda has to be present to validate the registration forms?

How do you suggest this is facilitated?

Well they don't facilitate it by standing on the steps of a garda station flashing a piece of paper with a retired judge in tow.

You wanna register? Go into a garda station and register.

Ive an idea, how about 123.ie Car Insurance sets up a stand to promote registering for driving licenses with a garda in tow... on the steps of a garda station. Civic duty and all that.

Little CuChulainn · 22-04-2015 05:39PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well they don't facilitate it by standing on the steps of a garda station flashing a piece of paper with a retired judge in tow.

You wanna register? Go into a garda station and register.

Ive an idea, how about 123.ie Car Insurance sets up a stand to promote registering for driving licenses with a garda in tow... on the steps of a garda station. Civic duty and all that.

Because Gardaí generally aren't involved in registering for driving licences. The only time you need a Garda witness is if you cannot produce your old licence and must report it lost or stolen.

evolving_doors · 22-04-2015 09:30PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Because Gardaí generally aren't involved in registering for driving licences. The only time you need a Garda witness is if you cannot produce your old licence and must report it lost or stolen.

You can get a garda witness if you want to register to vote Yes too, judging by the picture.
They're out on the streets (sitting at tables down in cork), and on the steps of the station just waiting for you to pass by. But if you do want to register there youll have to be canvassed while doing so. (Nothing to do with the guard at the table of course).

Little CuChulainn · 22-04-2015 09:36PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

You can get a garda witness if you want to register to vote Yes too, judging by the picture.
They're out on the streets (sitting at tables down in cork), and on the steps of the station just waiting for you to pass by. But if you do want to register there youll have to be canvassed while doing so. (Nothing to do with the guard at the table of course).

What a nonsense reply. Community Gardaí go to lots of places to witness forms for people. Most of these are organised by groups. They are hardly going to stop doing this for fear of someone gettin upset at the thought of two men holding hands.

Zubeneschamali · 22-04-2015 09:39PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

You can get a garda witness if you want to register to vote Yes too, judging by the picture.

Or no, judging by reports. The No campaign have a similar registration drive, with a Garda present.

So the Gardai are not supporting either side, they are doing their jobs and helping citizens register to vote. Their civic duty, if you like.

evolving_doors · 22-04-2015 10:30PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

What a nonsense reply. Community Gardaí go to lots of places to witness forms for people. Most of these are organised by groups. They are hardly going to stop doing this for fear of someone gettin upset at the thought of two men holding hands.

Eh! nonsense yerself, the issue/thread topic has nothing to do with " getting upset at the thought of two men holding hands". I never mentioned anything about men holding hands.

The issue/thread topic is about gardaí being used by either side of a campaign to endorse their position.
In this case a garda was used by Yes Equality to promote their position (i posted a link to Yes Equality's press release earlier which mentioned the garda and the judge (who is a proponent of the yes side).

Gardai Endorsing one side is wrong, Gardai endorsing the other side is wrong. Gardai endorsing 2 sides at the same time with some wishy washy thing about promoting registration is lunacy. Especially when the logic suggested is "ah shur let them do 2 wrongs and we'll be allright".
Nevermind the 'community guard doing their civic duty thing', thats tenuous to say the least.

Best thing is:
Let referendum comission promote a good turnout for whatever reason.
Let both sides promote whatever they want.

Leave the guards out of it.

ardmacha · 22-04-2015 10:34PM

gandalf wrote: »

How far away should they be? A metre, 10 metres, 100 metres, another building

It makes sense that they be in the vicinity of where interested parties are picking up and filling in the forms.

It is also important that Gardai do not endorse political events and if that means their stand being around the corner then that's what is needed.

Yes it was unfortunate that a few badges were on the same desk the Garda was sat at (and I only saw one picture where that happened) but it is hardly one to merit all the hand wringing.

What would warrant handwringing then?

Little CuChulainn · 22-04-2015 10:48PM

ardmacha wrote: »

It is also important that Gardai do not endorse political events and if that means their stand being around the corner then that's what is needed.

What would warrant handwringing then?

Wearing a badge.

evolving_doors · 22-04-2015 11:01PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Or no, judging by reports. The No campaign have a similar registration drive, with a Garda present.

So the Gardai are not supporting either side, they are doing their jobs and helping citizens register to vote. Their civic duty, if you like.

So they are supposed to jump to their duty once a particular side rings them up. I can see how that phonecall would go down well at the station "Maryyy yer wanted down clanbrassil street ASAP .... ya its Yes Equality this time... ya theyre all ready to go, just bring the forms... oh yeah dont forget you're up in Drumcondra after lunch posing for Iona".

As I said, people would think twice if there was a table out on O' Connell street in limerick with Willie O Dea pressing the flesh and a guard in tow "helping citizens to vote".... just doing their civic duty like!

Zubeneschamali · 22-04-2015 11:45PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

As I said, people would think twice if there was a table out on O' Connell street in limerick with Willie O Dea pressing the flesh

I think the people in both the Yes and No campaigns trying to get citizens to register to vote, and the gardai helping with that effort, deserve better than to be equated with a liar, perjurer, and Fianna Failer.

evolving_doors · 22-04-2015 11:58PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think the people in both the Yes and No campaigns trying to get citizens to register to vote, and the gardai helping with that effort, deserve better than to be equated with a liar, perjurer, and Fianna Failer.

But all he'd be doing is trying to get people to register to vote? Right?
And the Gardaí would be meerly trying to help with the voting process.

marienbad · 23-04-2015 12:19AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Its mad to see otherwise sensible fellow yes voters so willfully blind to something like this. You cannot have uniformed public servants publicly involved in anything organised by one side of a referendum/election campaign. It would be laughable if it weren't so sinister.

Both sides are having voter registration campaigns with a Garda present . Please stop pretending otherwise.

Gardai Investigating Voter-Registration promo

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