Gardai Investigating Voter-Registration promo

Little CuChulainn · 20-04-2015 08:02PM

Stinicker wrote: »

I believe in marriage and it something which is between a man an a woman and nothing can ever change this. I also do not beleive unelected senators and lobby groups should be allowed to try dictate the moral compass of this country. What you may consider as equality I consider to be an attack on the family and on some of the social fabric of society. Gay people have the Civil partnerships bill and have full equality already, I am supportive of this but not Gay Marriage.

In what way do you think it attacks the family?

Phoebas · 20-04-2015 08:10PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Dont know what the local school will do doing about the great big cross then. Drape a rainbow flag on them maybe?

If Jesus was campaigning on the issue we might have a problem, but he isn't, so the presence of a Christian symbol shouldn't be a problem.

markfinn · 20-04-2015 08:20PM

Stinicker wrote: »

How dare you call me a bigot? I am voting because I do not believe in Gay marriage and the behavior of the Yes side has only hardened my resolve.

Then you are a bigot.
You represent a bigoted viewpoint.
You are boasting and bragging about trying to advance a bigoted agenda.
You are, by definition of the word and your own stated actions, a bigot.

Get used to it.
Or grow up, start treating people decently and stop being a bigot.

evolving_doors · 20-04-2015 08:21PM

What are we debating about here?

The referendum?

No.

We're debating about a guard abusing their uniform to promote a certain side.

That's wrong.

If the guard was supporting a potential TD in a general election saying "ya vote Mickey Joe" would it be so easy to say... "well Mickey Joe has a good human rights record ...and is supported by the Gardai, then it's all OK".

I don't think so, the uniform shouldn't be abused in such a manner. She's either a civilian (in civilian clothes) or a Guard (in Uniform). So which is it?

shruikan2553 · 20-04-2015 08:23PM

Phoebas wrote: »

If Jesus was campaigning on the issue we might have a problem, but he isn't, so the presence of a Christian symbol shouldn't be a problem.

Jesus isnt but his friends are. I wouldnt consider it appropriate to have rainbow flags all over a polling station. It is hardly impartial.

thelad95 · 20-04-2015 08:30PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

what id like to know is who investigates those who investigate themselves ?

the coast guard ?

keeponhurling · 20-04-2015 09:06PM

floggg wrote: »

Edited. I disagree it's political - which is ultimately a matter of opinion.

We accept that politicans can appear in different capacities at events. If Michael Martin lends his face to a charity event, it doesn't become a FF event.

Same principle.

Was the Garda not in full uniform?
Or are you deliberately avoiding the point

If Michael Martin put up FF posters, then yes it would politicise the charity event

keeponhurling · 20-04-2015 09:23PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so you dont believe in equality then?

I assume you're also campaigning for the right to marriage of family members, children's right to marriage, the right to have multiple spouses and so on,

I mean it all comes down to equality and human rights.
Just because somebody's preferences are a bit different , each to their own, right ?
The main thing is equality

By the way, it's not nice to call people bigots

ohnonotgmail · 20-04-2015 09:24PM

keeponhurling wrote: »

I assume you're also campaigning for the right to marriage of family members, children's right to marriage, the right to have multiple spouses and so on,

I mean it all comes down to equality and human rights.
Just because somebody's preferences are a bit different , each to their own, right ?
The main thing is equality

By the way, it's not nice to call people bigots

Do you have a friend called Flem31? He tried on the same rubbish as well

SeanW · 20-04-2015 09:34PM

Phoebas wrote: »

When a Garda is doing a photocall with someone campaigning on the Yes side or providing Yes badges to people registering to vote, then it becomes political.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDA_ewJVIAAH1mr.jpg

The Gardai themselves had accepted that the photocall was inappropriate.

This has nothing to do with which side of the debate you are on.

I intend to vote Yes.

I consider this "go out and vote Yes" campaign by some guards as described here to be out-of-order. The fact that I agree with the message does not invalidate a concern that people who are supposed to be impartial chose to promote a particular message.

markfinn · 20-04-2015 09:38PM

keeponhurling wrote: »

I assume you're also campaigning for the right to marriage of family members, children's right to marriage, the right to have multiple spouses and so on,

I mean it all comes down to equality and human rights.
Just because somebody's preferences are a bit different , each to their own, right ?
The main thing is equality

By the way, it's not nice to call people bigots

How about calling them deceitful lying gits, who know damn well that they're spouting nonsense, but keep on in the hopes of encouraging more bigotry?

keeponhurling · 20-04-2015 09:39PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Do you have a friend called Flem31? He tried on the same rubbish as well

Good point, well reasoned
(No I don't know Flem31)

ohnonotgmail · 20-04-2015 09:45PM

keeponhurling wrote: »

Good point, well reasoned
(No I don't know Flem31)

what an amazing coincidence. he also made an identical rubbish argument.

Little CuChulainn · 20-04-2015 09:55PM

SeanW wrote: »

I consider this "go out and vote Yes" campaign by some guards as described here to be out-of-order.

Where is this described? We have one Garda in Cork sitting at an LGBT organised stand helping people register to vote and we have another Garda posing with a former Judge to encourage people to register to vote.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 20-04-2015 11:59PM

What a ridiculous Fcuking situation! Surely having a Garda in your campaign is damaging considering the blackening campaign there has been against them in recent times!

evolving_doors · 21-04-2015 10:16AM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Where is this described? We have one Garda in Cork sitting at an LGBT organised stand helping people register to vote and we have another Garda posing with a former Judge to encourage people to register to vote.

What do you mean by 'helping' people to register?

Is the guard on duty and assigned to that for a particular reason, or is it their day off and theyve decided to put on the uniform and help out on their own bat?

Is that guard 'helping' people to register or are they advocating a particular vote should be cast (are they holding their hand or something?)

You'll need to clarify 'helping'.

Little CuChulainn · 21-04-2015 10:22AM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

What do you mean by 'helping' people to register?

Is the guard on duty and assigned to that for a particular reason, or is it their day off and theyve decided to put on the uniform and help out on their own bat?

Is that guard 'helping' people to register or are they advocating a particular vote should be cast (are they holding their hand or something?)

You'll need to clarify 'helping'.

It's not like there's a lot of posts in the thread to read before you ask a question that's been answered at least three times but I'll humour you. In order to be added to the supplementary register your must have your identity certified on the application form by a member of An Garda Síochána. So there is no point having a registration drive without someone there to do that. That is what the community Gardaí were doing in the photos. And this isn't something that is done exclusively for lgbt either. As an example, they also go to old folks events to sign applications for disabled badges, bus passes and passports to save them the trip to the station.

SpaceTime · 21-04-2015 10:26AM

There wasn't any complaint raised when they were escorting the relics of St Theresa....

I suppose we should all start lodging such things if we're going to get petty.

evolving_doors · 21-04-2015 12:15PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's not like there's a lot of posts in the thread to read before you ask a question that's been answered at least three times but I'll humour you. In order to be added to the supplementary register your must have your identity certified on the application form by a member of An Garda Síochána. So there is no point having a registration drive without someone there to do that. That is what the community Gardaí were doing in the photos. And this isn't something that is done exclusively for lgbt either. As an example, they also go to old folks events to sign applications for disabled badges, bus passes and passports to save them the trip to the station.

Ok I take your point that Guards are necessary for registration identity purposes.

However I'm just uneasy that they do so under the umbrella of one side.

Would you be so happy if say Willie O' Dea set up a 'registration stall' before the general elections and inveigled a uniformed guard to attend 'in the interests of democracy'.

To my mind it's the same as when local politicians in my hometown used to strike people off the register because they knew a family voted a certain way.

The photo-shoot was organised by 'Yes Equality'. Was it purely 'in the interests of democracy'. I think not.

Gerrymander: To manipulate the boundaries of (an electoral constituency) so as to favour one party or class.

I would argue that the boundaries of the state were being manipulated by 'Yes Equality' by getting the Gardai to endorse their 'civic duty'.

I wonder did the people at the table in cork taking registration do any canvassing (Under the endorsement of the Gardai)?

BTW this has nothing to do with whether I vote yes or no, I just grew up surrounded by cute hoorism and witnessed state services being used to serve others' ends.

Lets not dress this up as a 'public service' issue on the part of 'Yes Equality'.

Little CuChulainn · 21-04-2015 02:34PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ok I take your point that Guards are necessary for registration identity purposes.

However I'm just uneasy that they do so under the umbrella of one side.

Would you be so happy if say Willie O' Dea set up a 'registration stall' before the general elections and inveigled a uniformed guard to attend 'in the interests of democracy'.

To my mind it's the same as when local politicians in my hometown used to strike people off the register because they knew a family voted a certain way.

The photo-shoot was organised by 'Yes Equality'. Was it purely 'in the interests of democracy'. I think not.

Gerrymander: To manipulate the boundaries of (an electoral constituency) so as to favour one party or class.

I would argue that the boundaries of the state were being manipulated by 'Yes Equality' by getting the Gardai to endorse their 'civic duty'.

I wonder did the people at the table in cork taking registration do any canvassing (Under the endorsement of the Gardai)?

BTW this has nothing to do with whether I vote yes or no, I just grew up surrounded by cute hoorism and witnessed state services being used to serve others' ends.

Lets not dress this up as a 'public service' issue on the part of 'Yes Equality'.

The Gardaí were not setting up at Yes Equality stands. One single Gardaí set up at a stand with an LGBT group. There are photos of Gardaí set up in other neutral locations. As for the photo call, there is nothing political in the photo at all. People are choosing to attach a message to it which was not intended due to one of the people in it having expressed a desire for a yes vote in one of the referenda.

floggg · 21-04-2015 02:51PM

Stinicker wrote: »

I believe in marriage and it something which is between a man an a woman and nothing can ever change this. I also do not beleive unelected senators and lobby groups should be allowed to try dictate the moral compass of this country. What you may consider as equality I consider to be an attack on the family and on some of the social fabric of society. Gay people have the Civil partnerships bill and have full equality already, I am supportive of this but not Gay Marriage.

We don't have full equality - circa 150 legal differences.

How does my loving and committed relationship threaten anybody's family or society?

Little CuChulainn · 21-04-2015 02:56PM

floggg wrote: »

We don't have full equality - circa 150 legal differences.

How does my loving and committed relationship threaten anybody's family or society?

More importantly, how is a child worse off with two dads/mams than they are with non or, more commonly, one very incapable one.

floggg · 21-04-2015 02:56PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ok I take your point that Guards are necessary for registration identity purposes.

However I'm just uneasy that they do so under the umbrella of one side.

Would you be so happy if say Willie O' Dea set up a 'registration stall' before the general elections and inveigled a uniformed guard to attend 'in the interests of democracy'.

To my mind it's the same as when local politicians in my hometown used to strike people off the register because they knew a family voted a certain way.

The photo-shoot was organised by 'Yes Equality'. Was it purely 'in the interests of democracy'. I think not.

Gerrymander: To manipulate the boundaries of (an electoral constituency) so as to favour one party or class.

I would argue that the boundaries of the state were being manipulated by 'Yes Equality' by getting the Gardai to endorse their 'civic duty'.

I wonder did the people at the table in cork taking registration do any canvassing (Under the endorsement of the Gardai)?

BTW this has nothing to do with whether I vote yes or no, I just grew up surrounded by cute hoorism and witnessed state services being used to serve others' ends.

Lets not dress this up as a 'public service' issue on the part of 'Yes Equality'.

There's no issue if they make themselves available to all sides on equal terms and don't visibly support their message.

It's an enabling service, not advocacy.

evolving_doors · 21-04-2015 05:52PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The Gardaí were not setting up at Yes Equality stands. One single Gardaí set up at a stand with an LGBT group. There are photos of Gardaí set up in other neutral locations. As for the photo call, there is nothing political in the photo at all. People are choosing to attach a message to it which was not intended due to one of the people in it having expressed a desire for a yes vote in one of the referenda.

Yes but the point was that 'one single guard' WAS representing the gardaí. Whether we like it or not, once a state uniform is donned then you are being identified with the organisation as a whole, and thus need to behave appropriately.

Im not chosing to attach my message to it. That message has been made clear by whoever organised the photo. There were only 2 people in the Irish Times photo that I saw. A person associated with the yes side and a Garda. If there is no message being proffered then why did Yes Equality organise it in the first place?

Why was it necessary for a garda to be in the photo anyway?

conorh91 · 21-04-2015 08:26PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Would you be so happy if say Willie O' Dea set up a 'registration stall' before the general elections and inveigled a uniformed guard to attend 'in the interests of democracy'.

I wouldn't necessarily consider it wise, but it's a different issue, because (i) this was part of an actual registration-to-vote campaign and was not a cynical vote-getting exercise by the former Judge, and (ii) there are two referenda taking place, and i have no idea how the various personalities plan to vote in one of those referenda.

But above all, I cannot even imagine how demoralizing this experience has been for the smiling, civic-minded Garda of the original photo. She won't agree in deviate from her strictly-defined duties for the sake of the public interest in the future, I suspect. She has been publicly rebuked by her own Commissioner, and criticized by a bunch of keyboard quibblers and Garda bashers on the internet when all she'd wanted was to encourage public participation in the democratic process.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Why was it necessary for a garda to be in the photo anyway?

It wasn't necessary. Who said it was necessary? Did anybody claim it was necessary?

evolving_doors · 21-04-2015 09:40PM

floggg wrote: »

There's no issue if they make themselves available to all sides on equal terms and don't visibly support their message.

It's an enabling service, not advocacy.

They are supposed to be apolitical. Why should the Gardai be making themselves available to any side for 'enabling'.

That's the job of the Referendum Commission:

The Referendum Commission is an independent body that explains the subject matter of referendum proposals, promotes public awareness of a referendum, and encourages the electorate to vote.

But hey, even if the Referendum Commission felt the need to call in the Army on this one then so be it. But I don't think the Referendum Commission would have put them standing beside just one person who is advocating one particular side with a registration form in hand.

evolving_doors · 21-04-2015 10:07PM

conorh91 wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily consider it wise, but it's a different issue, because (i) this was part of an actual registration-to-vote campaign

Actually no it wasn't. I'll put in the glaring omission that you neglected to mention:

"...this was part of an actual registration-to-vote campaign by Yes Equality..."

Yes Equality organised the photo-call.

conorh91 wrote: »

there are two referenda taking place, and i have no idea how the various personalities plan to vote in one of those referenda.

That implies that you do have an idea how one of the various personalities plan to vote in the other referendum. Just read the article:

Retired judge Catherine McGuinness, a supporter of the Yes campaign,

conorh91 wrote: »

But above all, I cannot even imagine how demoralizing this experience has been for the smiling, civic-minded Garda of the original photo.

I agree, she made a bad call. there but for the grace of god etc. Just because she's been called on it doesn't make it right though. AS I said, if she did the same for a TD during an election I think she'd have been equally called up on it.
Maybe she was tricked into appearing on the premiss of 'civic mindedness' and 'enabling' registration to vote. Was she told from the outset that the photocall was organised by the Yes side?

conorh91 wrote: »

She won't agree to deviate from her strictly-defined duties for the sake of the public interest in the future, I suspect....

It wasn't in the sake of 'the public interest' to endorse a particular side in a referendum. (Irrespective of what the actual vote is about).

conorh91 wrote: »

...She has been publicly rebuked by her own Commissioner,....

That's his job, (maybe he should have said nothing!) otherwise he would be endorsing her actions.. and therefore endorsing the camp that she was associated with.

conorh91 wrote: »

....and criticized by a bunch of keyboard quibblers

I'm not criticising her, I'm criticising the action

conorh91 wrote: »

...and Garda bashers on the internet ...

This has nothing to do with bashing the Gardai, if anything, it is supporting their role by ensuring impartiality.

conorh91 wrote: »

when all she'd wanted was to encourage public participation in the democratic process.

That's fair enough if that was her motive. And hey, even if her motive was to show support for a Yes vote then Ok. But when you put on a uniform you are representing all members whether you like it or not.

conorh91 wrote: »

It wasn't necessary. Who said it was necessary? Did anybody claim it was necessary?

Then why was she asked to do it?

I'm saying that it was not necessary. Obviously Yes Equality thought it to be necessary!

And I'll reiterate, the topic in hand of the uniformed garda is separate to the actual issue on the ballot papers.

K4t · 21-04-2015 10:22PM

keeponhurling wrote: »

I assume you're also campaigning for the right to marriage of same sex family members, children's right to same sex marriage, the right to have same sex multiple spouses and so on,

No, no, not at all. Allow me to explain- They're merely campaigning for same sex MARRIAGE. See, the right to marriage already exists under law, unlike all of the things you mention in your post above. Same sex marriage will simply extend the right to marry to consenting adult couples of the same sex, thus allowing your family members, friends, neighbours, enemies and so on to marry their loved ones. Men, women and homosexuals can already marry each other; same sex marriage will simply allow the discriminatory nature of this right to end by allowing two men or two women to marry each other. That's all. Nothing to fear.

Little CuChulainn · 21-04-2015 10:23PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

They are supposed to be apolitical. Why should the Gardai be making themselves available to any side for 'enabling'.

Because that's the kind of thing community Gardaí do. Like how they go to old folks homes to sign forms for the elderly. You say you are not attaching your own conclusions to the picture bu you are. In one picture you are deciding that a Gardas location is a direct endorsement of that group even though all she has done is sign and stamp forms. You have decided that it means something. Just like in the first photo, you have decided that the Garda is endorsing one side simply because the person with her is a Yes campaigner for one of the referenda. That is a conclusion you have attached to the photo. There is nothing political in the photo at all.

Also, the commissioner is a woman.

conorh91 · 21-04-2015 10:29PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

That implies that you do have an idea how one of the various personalities plan to vote in the other referendum. Just read the article:

Retired judge Catherine McGuinness, a supporter of the Yes campaign,

I said, "one of those referenda".

There will be two referenda. I have no idea how the former Supreme Court Judge will vote in the referendum regarding age for eligibility to the candidacy of the Presidency of Ireland.

It wasn't in the sake of 'the public interest' to endorse a particular side in a referendum. (Irrespective of what the actual vote is about).

She didn't endorse a side.

That's his job

The Commissioner of the Garda Síochána is a female.

Gardai Investigating Voter-Registration promo

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