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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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Comments

  • #3392
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    galljga1 wrote: »
    Methinks you are missing his point.
    ... and what point was that?


  • #3393
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    indioblack wrote: »
    As you wish.
    This is a debate mostly centres around the existence of the Christian god. Other posters have stated that there is no proof either way - for the existence or non-existence of god.
    If that is so, it may be instructive to ask why people believe - and disbelieve. The motivation of believers and speculation as to why an omnipotent entity would behave in the way described in scripture.
    All valid ... and a refreshing upwards 'gear change' in intellectual thought ... to the usual stuff that passes for debate on many forums, including parts of this one!!!


  • #3394
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    It is a fundamental belief of Christianity ... but it is much more than a belief ... it is a logically derived axiom.

    ... and indioblack is correct to be pursuing/questioning the basis for this axiom.

    Just because you may not be interested in pursuing this (or any other idea) doesn't mean that you should dismiss people who do.

    The reality of an actual paradise and an actual expulsion are not fundamental beliefs of Christianity. What they symbolise is a fundamental belief of Christianity.

    I've a great interest in the symbolism of a fatal flaw in humanity (Original Sin, if you insist), but I don't see the point in discussing "The Fall" as if it were a real event.


  • #3395
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    The reality of an actual paradise and an actual expulsion are not fundamental beliefs of Christianity. What they symbolise is a fundamental belief of Christianity.
    The reality of an actual Fall is a fundamental axiom of Christianity ... because, without an actual Fall by a fleah and blood man (Adam) ... there would be no need for atonement for the Fall by an actual flesh and blood man (Jesus Christ).
    katydid wrote: »
    I've a great interest in the symbolism of a fatal flaw in humanity (Original Sin, if you insist), but I don't see the point in discussing "The Fall" as if it were a real event.
    The Fall isn't symbolic ... unless you're also saying that Jesus Christ and His atonement for the Fall are also symbolic ... which would be completely debasing of Christianity.


  • #3396
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    The reality of an actual Fall is a fundamental axiom of Christianity ... because, without an actual Fall by a fleah and blood man (Adam) ... there would be no need for atonement for the Fall by an actual flesh and blood man (Jesus Christ).

    The Fall isn't symbolic ... unless you're also saying that Jesus Christ and His atonement for the Fall are also symbolic ... which would be completely debasing of Christianity.

    Do you believe there was an actual Garden of Eden, a snake, and an expulsion from Paradise?


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  • #3397
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    katydid wrote: »
    The reality of an actual paradise and an actual expulsion are not fundamental beliefs of Christianity. What they symbolise is a fundamental belief of Christianity.

    I've a great interest in the symbolism of a fatal flaw in humanity (Original Sin, if you insist), but I don't see the point in discussing "The Fall" as if it were a real event.
    For some it is actual and, for all I know, may still be taught that way.
    As I'm sure you're aware part of this thread has been taken up by people debating what should be taken literally, even historically true - and what can be regarded as symbolic. That's assuming people can agree on the message of the symbolism.


  • #3398
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    J C wrote: »
    It seems to be a choice between an infinity of pain/justice or pleasure/mercy ... not neither nor both.

    ... so which do you want?

    Nope - not having any of those.


  • #3399
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    Do you believe there was an actual Garden of Eden, a snake, and an expulsion from Paradise?
    Yes ... and unless there was ... how did sin and evil arise ... and what was Jesus Christ's atonement for?

    ... and if the Fall is symbolic, like you say ... what is it symbolic for?


  • #3400
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Nope - not having any of those.
    ... the default is God's Justice ... so I guess, unless you change your mind ... justice is what it will be.


  • #3401
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    Yes ... and unless there was ... how did sin and evil arise ... and what was Jesus Christ's atonement for?

    ... and if the Fall is symbolic, like you say ... what is it symbolic for?

    You do. Enough said.

    Ever heard of Lucy from Africa?

    Sin is our fundamental human flaw. How and when it came about doesn't matter. What matters is that Jesus showed us how to overcome it,


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  • #3402
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    J C wrote: »
    Yes ... and unless there was ... how did sin and evil arise ... and what was Jesus Christ's atonement for?
    "Sin" is a term invented by man.
    I've always wondered about the "atonement". Did it work? Is mankind any better because of it?


  • #3403
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    indioblack wrote: »
    Other posters have stated that there is no proof either way - for the existence or non-existence of god.
    If that is so, it may be instructive to ask why people believe - and disbelieve.

    OK, I'll go:

    I was raised as a regular Irish Roman Catholic.

    Somewhere around the age of 12, I stopped believing all of it.

    When I thought about why I no longer believed it, the fact that there was no evidence that it was true seemed important, in contrast to the scientific view, where deeper and deeper investigation showed more and more evidence for wilder and crazier theories.

    Before anyone even suggests that science does not contradict God - that is only true of the kind of God who has been so removed from human affairs that a scientist can believe in him. That is not the God I believed in - He answered prayers, and did some kind of thing at Mass every Sunday which no-one understood, and definitely rose from the dead that one time.

    Which we all know is impossible.


  • #3404
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    You do. Enough said.

    Ever heard of Lucy from Africa?
    Never mind Lucy ... there is another mega thread to discuss and debunk her!!!

    This is the atheism /existence of God thread ... and I'm asking you if the Fall is symbolic, like you say ... what is it symbolic for?

    ... and do you also believe that Jesus Christ's atonement for the Fall is also symbolic?

    Indeed, do you believe that God / Jesus Christ is also symbolic for something else?


  • #3405
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    Sin is our fundamental human flaw. How and when it came about doesn't matter. What matters is that Jesus showed us how to overcome it,
    ... and how do we do that ?


  • #3406
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    Never mind Lucy ... there is another mega thread to discuss and debunk her!!!

    This is the atheism /existence of God thread ... and I'm asking you if the Fall is symbolic, like you say ... what is it symbolic for?

    ... and do you also believe that Jesus Christ's atonement for the Fall is also symbolic?

    Indeed, do you believe that God / Jesus Christ is also symbolic for something else?

    No, it's not another thread. Either you believe in Eve or you believe in Lucy.

    You don't have to believe in Eve to believe in the message that the story of Eve represents. Of course it's symbolic; it's a primitive Middle Eastern tribe's creation story. What it tells us is that mankind is fundamentally flawed. Which makes Christ's sacrifice, to help us face and deal with this fact, crucially important to the human story.


  • #3407
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    OK, I'll go:

    I was raised as a regular Irish Roman Catholic.

    Somewhere around the age of 12, I stopped believing all of it.

    When I thought about why I no longer believed it, the fact that there was no evidence that it was true seemed important, in contrast to the scientific view, where deeper and deeper investigation showed more and more evidence for wilder and crazier theories.

    Before anyone even suggests that science does not contradict God - that is only true of the kind of God who has been so removed from human affairs that a scientist can believe in him. That is not the God I believed in - He answered prayers, and did some kind of thing at Mass every Sunday which no-one understood, and definitely rose from the dead that one time.

    Which we all know is impossible    .
    ... unless you are God ... which Jesus Christ claimed to be ... and proved that he was, precisely by rising from the dead.


  • #3408
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    No, it's not another thread. Either you believe in Eve or you believe in Lucy.
    I don't just believe ... I know that both Eve and Lucy existed .. one was the mother of all Mankind ... and the other was ... an Ape.
    katydid wrote: »
    You don't have to believe in Eve to believe in the message that the story of Eve represents. Of course it's symbolic; it's a primitive Middle Eastern tribe's creation story. What it tells us is that mankind is fundamentally flawed. Which makes Christ's sacrifice, to help us face and deal with this fact, crucially important to the human story.
    ... and exactly how does Christ's sacrifice help us to deal with the flaws of mankind (and our own flaws)?


  • #3409
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    J C wrote: »
    ... unless you are God ... which Jesus Christ claimed to be ... and proved that he was, precisely by rising from the dead.

    So God has no philosophical probem with proving his existence? Doesn't care about Faith at all?

    Cool: I will believe in God if my beer spills in the next 5 seconds.

    4

    3

    2

    1

    Nope. Nada. Nowt. Nothing. Same as the past 50 years.


  • #3410
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    ... and exactly how does Christ's sacrifice help us to deal with the flaws of mankind (and our own flaws)?

    By showing us that out of the most horrendous pain comes ineffable love. It's our job, as Christians, to try to emulate that love. To try...


  • #3411
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    So God has no philosophical probem with proving his existence? Doesn't care about Faith at all?

    Cool: I will believe in God if my beer spills in the next 5 seconds.

    4

    3

    2

    1

    Nope. Nada. Nowt. Nothing. Same as the past 50 years.
    ... God isn't your bartender.
    He is omnipotent ... but has chosen not to exercise His omnipotence, except in very rare moments for his own sovereign reasons ... and to allow free-will to be exercised.
    Just think about this for a moment ... if God spilled your beer on command ... how would you feel about him spilling the brake fluid in your car on command????


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  • #3412
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    By showing us that out of the most horrendous pain comes ineffable love. It's our job, as Christians, to try to emulate that love. To try...
    ... I don't believe these syrupy and ultimately meaningless, conjectures of modernism.

    ... so apart from some nice fuzzy felings ... often followed by crushing disappointment ... how does 'trying to emulate the infinite love of Jesus Christ, actually address the flaws of mankind, and our own flaws?


  • #3413
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    J C wrote: »
    ... God isn't your bartender.
    He is omnipotent ... but has chosen not to exercise His omnipotence, except in very rare moments for his own sovereign reasons ... and to allow free-will to be exercised.
    Which would be something akin to a Pandora's Box moment.
    We probably wouldn't exist as we do with an omnipotent being unless he stood to one side.


  • #3414
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    J C wrote: »
    Just think about this for a moment ... if God spilled your beer on command ... how would you feel about him spilling the brake fluid in your car on command????

    If he existed like you think, he'd be omnipotent. My feelings wouldn't count, just like all the people in your story who missed the proof he gave 2000 years ago to like 20 of his followers.

    Allegedly.


  • #3415
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    If he existed like you think, he'd be omnipotent. My feelings wouldn't count, just like all the people in your story who missed the proof he gave 2000 years ago to like 20 of his followers.

    Allegedly.
    ... but that's the amazing thing ... your feelings do count with God ... and this is proven by your ability to exercise free will (based on your fellings) in the presence of an omnipotent God ...

    ... and how you feel about God ... and His free gift of Savation also counts with God ... and is accepted by Him.


  • #3416
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    indioblack wrote: »
    Which would be something akin to a Pandora's Box moment.
    We probably wouldn't exist as we do with an omnipotent being unless he stood to one side.
    ... we'd all become 'Stepford Wives' ... if he didn't stand to one side and insisted on meddling omnipotently with us.


  • #3417
    indioblack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭indioblack


    J C wrote: »
    ... we'd all become 'Stepford Wives' ... if he didn't stand to one side and insisted on meddling omnipotently with us.
    If the world is as it is because of man's sin, the Fall, his exercising of free will - a world with a sizeable amount of pain and misery - if we observe this and feel empathy and sorrow, does god?
    Because of the scenario you've sketched out the mechanics of the world and our lives are played out and they are obvious to us.
    God is presumably prepared to tolerate the workings of the world, no matter how unpleasant.


  • #3418
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    J C wrote: »
    ... we'd all become 'Stepford Wives' ... if he didn't stand to one side and insisted on meddling omnipotently with us.

    Apparently, if you believe the Bible, he did a load of miracles and proof and so forth 2000 years ago.

    So your saying Mary and Peter and Paul and James had no free will? Just automata, because they saw proof?

    The Church was founded by robots programmed by God?

    Uh-oh, that generation are the only witnesses that anything in the New Testament actually happened! If God brainwashed them, maybe Jesus never existed at all!


  • #3419
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    ... I don't believe these syrupy and ultimately meaningless, conjectures of modernism.

    ... so apart from some nice fuzzy felings ... often followed by crushing disappointment ... how does 'trying to emulate the infinite love of Jesus Christ, actually address the flaws of mankind, and our own flaws?

    That's fine. But it's the Christian message...


  • #3420
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    A side point here , Jesus set up a situation of "suicide by cops" , so just like in real world or movie examples like Falling Down , everyone else just becomes pawns to further the aims of that character. Jesus was happy to perform miracles to get followers but not in a situation where he needed everyone to act like drones so they would keep to the script.
    If jesus hadn't succeeded would he have just gone to another town, get a new set of followers and attempt the same thing again?
    Why would an omnipotent deity behave in this way? also knowing the anti simitic behaviour that the christian church was responsible for in the centuries ahead.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #3421
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    J C wrote: »
    I don't just believe ... I know that both Eve and Lucy existed .. one was the mother of all Mankind ... and the other was ... an Ape.

    Nope.

    Homo Sapien is a type of Primate.

    Humans are Apes.

    Read a book. No, not that book.


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