Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

tommy2bad · 12-04-2015 07:09PM

silverharp wrote: »

Very weak analogies, I'd accept them if you were a deist. firstly the quality of its work , very poor, humans having all the issues aggression etc of pre human brains . The sheer number of pathogens "designed" to kill us. The lack of resources on the planet. No owners manual and the lack of any meaningful or universal revelation. And although christians might deny it , no meaningful two way communication.

Well Christian theology has adressed this point a long time ago. CreationCreation is not in its original state, it has been altered by human intervention. Yes it begs the question, if God is omnipotent how could puny humans.....etc. free will I suppose answers that.

indioblack · 12-04-2015 07:27PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Well Christian theology has adressed this point a long time ago. CreationCreation is not in its original state, it has been altered by human intervention. Yes it begs the question, if God is omnipotent how could puny humans.....etc. free will I suppose answers that.

I suppose it does.
A conscious omnipotent god would have to be less interventionist, it might be said that he would deliberately compromise himself - but I suppose that's alright if he is god.
There should be a way of bringing these two closer - the finite world and the infinite god.
And as I type this I can guess the response - faith.

obplayer · 12-04-2015 07:44PM

hinault wrote: »

How do you discern whether God intervenes or not?

Why don't you tell us? You are the one convinced of God's existence, show us how he has intervened to prove this.

orubiru · 12-04-2015 11:13PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Well Christian theology has adressed this point a long time ago. CreationCreation is not in its original state, it has been altered by human intervention. Yes it begs the question, if God is omnipotent how could puny humans.....etc. free will I suppose answers that.

Actually "God doesn't exist" answers it also.

hinault · 12-04-2015 11:33PM

indioblack wrote: »

Good point - but I did say not directly.

Fair enough.

orubiru · 12-04-2015 11:37PM

hinault wrote: »

Yes, Scripture foretells that people will not accept the evidence regardless.

Consider even St.Thomas.

Thomas had witnessed Jesus Christ ministry. Thomas witnessed Jesus himself teaching that he would rise from the dead. Thomas knew and had witnessed what his fellow apostles had said and done. He knew the character of his fellow apostles.

But even with all of that, when told by the other apostles that Jesus had risen from the dead, Thomas would not accept what he was told! He doubted when they told him that they had seen Jesus alive in the flesh after the crucifixion.

And that was the opinion of the man who had been as close to the events as anyone else could possibly be.

Why are you trying to pass off stories like this as though they are historical facts?

In any case, if a man who "had been as close to the events as anyone else could possibly be" had trouble accepting the story of Jesus' resurrection then what chance does someone born almost 2,000 years after the event have?

This whole line of argument seems to be that "only fools don't believe in Jesus' resurrection and you are not a fool, right?"

Of course the Scripture foretells that people will not accept the evidence. The people who wrote the scripture know that there is no convincing evidence.

"Listen guys, some people won't believe this resurrection stuff because, you know, people don't normally come back from the dead after being crucified. Like its an exceptionally rare event. A one off really. Since we dont have actual proof, people will doubt us." Well why not just put that in the story? Right?

Let's "predict" that they won't believe us so that when they (justifiably) don't believe us we can say "SEE! I told you that you wouldn't believe!"

Maybe the first line in the New Testament should have been "I know you won't believe this but..."?

tommy2bad · 13-04-2015 07:14AM

orubiru wrote: »

Actually "God doesn't exist" answers it also.

Yep it dose.

ABC101 · 13-04-2015 11:46PM

indioblack wrote: »

I see your point. But my answer would be that these examples are of people functioning within a system they did not create.
God did create the system and as long as his omnipotence is upheld logically he may be said to have indirect responsibility.
Following my earlier answer in my last post I would repeat that an omnipotent god would have to allow both positive and negative to flourish for us to be - well, as we are now - with the capability of choice and the possibility of growth.
By the way what's your answer to my question?

Just managing to get back in reply now... lots of trouble at my end.

In relation to your question...

If a person has doubts and believes, (that word again), that these doubts are honestly held what would you say - if you were god?

Well human beings…. By virtue of the fact that they are human beings …. Will always be prone to doubts.

People have lots of doubts…. Some more than others. Some people have doubts about themselves (suitable for a promotion at work for example), doubts about the advice from a doctor / teacher / politician / car mechanic etc etc etc.

Leo Varadker might say that the trouble in the Dept of Health is just temporary and it will eventually all be fixed. I doubt that myself!!

WRT religious doubts….one example being life after death…eternal salvation, heaven / hell etc etc

Some people can have doubts because they cannot touch / feel / see the afterlife, i.e. pay a visit to Heaven and check it out for themselves, then return home to Earth... content in the knowledge that the afterlife is there.
So where does God stand… or as you ask ….. if I were God…. What would my position be?

I think due to the fact that I am God… I would have a very good understanding of the doubters position. Their background, their experiences in life, i.e. if the person had turned away from any religion due to having being abused by a religious person / religious order etc. Mitigating factors so to speak. God understands these things, or if I was God... by virtue of being God.... I would understand.

However I would like to say a number of things about “having doubts”.

1) It is part of Human nature, it is not a crime.
2) Having doubts can be a good thing in itself. It can prompt a person to explore / expand from their own perspective, ask questions, read knowledgeable books etc. I may have doubts about something, but if I make the effort to overcome my doubts then in the process I can increase my knowledge / understanding of whatever it is. For example… there must have been a time when people doubted humans could ever fly. But with engineering / innovative approach human flight was made possible (Wright Brothers).
3) WRT to religious doubts God can help us overcome our doubts by allowing us to love God more.

I am in no doubt that I will die someday. However I am going to try living my life as best as I can. And hopefully.... I will be judged worthy of living in Heaven with God and all the good spirits / humans and have a great time for eternity.

marienbad · 14-04-2015 12:30AM

ABC101 wrote: »

I am in no doubt that I will die someday. However I am going to try living my life as best as I can. And hopefully.... I will be judged worthy of living in Heaven with God and all the good spirits / humans and have a great time for eternity.

I have no doubt either that I will die someday, and I will continue to live my life as best I can . And if there is a God and a heaven ,(which I seriously doubt) ,I have no doubt that I will be more than welcome and I will also have a great time for eternity !

hinault · 14-04-2015 12:52AM

ABC101 wrote: »

Just managing to get back in reply now... lots of trouble at my end.

In relation to your question...

If a person has doubts and believes, (that word again), that these doubts are honestly held what would you say - if you were god?

Well human beings…. By virtue of the fact that they are human beings …. Will always be prone to doubts.

People have lots of doubts…. Some more than others. Some people have doubts about themselves (suitable for a promotion at work for example), doubts about the advice from a doctor / teacher / politician / car mechanic etc etc etc.

Leo Varadker might say that the trouble in the Dept of Health is just temporary and it will eventually all be fixed. I doubt that myself!!

WRT religious doubts….one example being life after death…eternal salvation, heaven / hell etc etc

Some people can have doubts because they cannot touch / feel / see the afterlife, i.e. pay a visit to Heaven and check it out for themselves, then return home to Earth... content in the knowledge that the afterlife is there.
So where does God stand… or as you ask ….. if I were God…. What would my position be?

I think due to the fact that I am God… I would have a very good understanding of the doubters position. Their background, their experiences in life, i.e. if the person had turned away from any religion due to having being abused by a religious person / religious order etc. Mitigating factors so to speak. God understands these things, or if I was God... by virtue of being God.... I would understand.

However I would like to say a number of things about “having doubts”.

1) It is part of Human nature, it is not a crime.
2) Having doubts can be a good thing in itself. It can prompt a person to explore / expand from their own perspective, ask questions, read knowledgeable books etc. I may have doubts about something, but if I make the effort to overcome my doubts then in the process I can increase my knowledge / understanding of whatever it is. For example… there must have been a time when people doubted humans could ever fly. But with engineering / innovative approach human flight was made possible (Wright Brothers).
3) WRT to religious doubts God can help us overcome our doubts by allowing us to love God more.

I am in no doubt that I will die someday. However I am going to try living my life as best as I can. And hopefully.... I will be judged worthy of living in Heaven with God and all the good spirits / humans and have a great time for eternity.

Some interesting thoughts there, and you allude to one very important point I think.

It is not possible to be saved without God's help. We call this help divine grace. Divine grace is granted when and only when each of us takes the initiative to ask God for help.

Put simply, God's grace is there. That grace can be accessed by us at any time during this lifetime, if we pray and ask for God's help. If we don't ask God for this grace, we cannot access it. Without that grace, we cannot be saved.

If we are in a state of mortal sin, we're prevented from having access to God's grace as well.

It takes the humble person to admit that they need help and for to seek that help with a sincere heart. Confession is an act of humility. The person knows their sinful state, and in making a sincere confession the penitent is asking for forgiveness for their sins and in doing so they're asking God to remove the penalty of those sins from their souls.

ABC101 · 14-04-2015 11:01AM

marienbad wrote: »

I have no doubt either that I will die someday, and I will continue to live my life as best I can . And if there is a God and a heaven ,(which I seriously doubt) ,I have no doubt that I will be more than welcome and I will also have a great time for eternity !

Good for you Marien.

I hope you are correct in saying you will be most welcome in Heaven.

I however... WRT to myself.... my own salvation... I would make no presumption.

I hope I would be admitted to eternal happiness... however I accept it is by no means certain that I will succeed. God decides my fate... not for me to presume or assume!!

ABC101 · 14-04-2015 11:03AM

hinault wrote: »

Some interesting thoughts there, and you allude to one very important point I think.

It is not possible to be saved without God's help. We call this help divine grace. Divine grace is granted when and only when each of us takes the initiative to ask God for help.

Put simply, God's grace is there. That grace can be accessed by us at any time during this lifetime, if we pray and ask for God's help. If we don't ask God for this grace, we cannot access it. Without that grace, we cannot be saved.

If we are in a state of mortal sin, we're prevented from having access to God's grace as well.

It takes the humble person to admit that they need help and for to seek that help with a sincere heart. Confession is an act of humility. The person knows their sinful state, and in making a sincere confession the penitent is asking for forgiveness for their sins and in doing so they're asking God to remove the penalty of those sins from their souls.

Agreed.... God's devine Grace can and does help.... especially when the person asks / calls out to God.

orubiru · 14-04-2015 11:24AM

ABC101 wrote: »

Good for you Marien.
I hope you are correct in saying you will be most welcome in Heaven.

I however... WRT to myself.... my own salvation... I would make no presumption.

I hope I would be admitted to eternal happiness... however I accept it is by no means certain that I will succeed. God decides my fate... not for me to presume or assume!!

ABC101 wrote: »

Agreed.... God's devine Grace can and does help.... especially when the person asks / calls out to God.

You seem to contradict yourself in back to back posts here.

On one hand you are saying that you can't assume or presume.

Then in the very next post you are claiming that Gods divine Grace can and does help.

Isn't that very presumptuous of you? To assume that God not only has diving Grace but also that it can and does help? You go even further and say that this effect is increased when the person asks or calls out to God.

If God grants access to eternal happiness, and all we have to do to get this is to call out to God and ask for help, then the obvious question arises... where is the evidence? Where is the proof?

You can't make assumptions about God unless the assumption is that God lets us in to Heaven? How convenient.

orubiru · 14-04-2015 11:32AM

hinault wrote: »

Some interesting thoughts there, and you allude to one very important point I think.

It is not possible to be saved without God's help. We call this help divine grace. Divine grace is granted when and only when each of us takes the initiative to ask God for help.

Put simply, God's grace is there. That grace can be accessed by us at any time during this lifetime, if we pray and ask for God's help. If we don't ask God for this grace, we cannot access it. Without that grace, we cannot be saved.

If we are in a state of mortal sin, we're prevented from having access to God's grace as well.

It takes the humble person to admit that they need help and for to seek that help with a sincere heart. Confession is an act of humility. The person knows their sinful state, and in making a sincere confession the penitent is asking for forgiveness for their sins and in doing so they're asking God to remove the penalty of those sins from their souls.

Once again you are making claims as though they are accepted facts.

"It is not possible to be saved without God's help." - where is the proof?

"Divine grace is granted when and only when each of us takes the initiative to ask God for help." - you should be able to back up this claim with evidence.

"God's grace is there" - Where? Show me. At least show me how you know this is true.

"If we don't ask God for this grace, we cannot access it. Without that grace, we cannot be saved." - Can you expand on this? What if someone doesn't ask for Gods grace but God saves them anyway? Can that happen? Has it happened?

You make these wonderful and amazing claims about Gods grace but you don't back it up with anything at all.

Why do you insist on doing this? You make fantastic claims but you try to just pass them off as facts when clearly they are not.

ABC101 · 14-04-2015 12:03PM

orubiru wrote: »

You seem to contradict yourself in back to back posts here.

On one hand you are saying that you can't assume or presume.

Then in the very next post you are claiming that Gods divine Grace can and does help.

Isn't that very presumptuous of you? To assume that God not only has diving Grace but also that it can and does help? You go even further and say that this effect is increased when the person asks or calls out to God.

If God grants access to eternal happiness, and all we have to do to get this is to call out to God and ask for help, then the obvious question arises... where is the evidence? Where is the proof?

You can't make assumptions about God unless the assumption is that God lets us in to Heaven? How convenient.

I think I understand your question but not sure.

When a believer calls out to God for help / assistance, it does not mean they are calling out to get entry into Heaven. Frequently people ask God to assist them in lots of things... not just eternal salvation.

For example.... I have a examination to do next week. I am nervous about failing the exam. I study as best as I can... but I also pray for assistance from God to give me the strength to overcome the exam. This request has nothing to do with my salvation.

WRT to myself... I would like to say this about me... and perhaps it will clear up any confusion at your end.

I call on God to assist me lots of times, during the day, during the week etc.

Even though I believe in God, and God frequently answers my requests.... I still do not presume that I will cut the grade for eternal salvation. I believe I have a chance of getting into Heaven..... I have asked for God's help frequently in the past, many problems in my life have been overcome with God's assistance..... but the fact remains...... I still have a number of years left in my life.... and during that time.... I can still mess it all up.

I have to get to the end of my life in God's good books so to speak. I have to finish the race in a state of Grace.

On my death, my entire life will be played back like a video tape, and the actions / decisions during my life will be judged. Everything will be taken into account, good points and bad points etc

I am not the judge, I have never experienced a judgement on another person's soul. So I cannot assume / presume to know where the cut off line is, what is the pass mark? I would imagine there is a lot of factors at play when it comes to the judgement of a persons soul.

From the parable of the Talents... people will be judged slightly differently from each other. To those who have been given a lot.... a lot will be expected. To those who have not been given much... a certain amount will be expected, but it will not be the same as the person who was initially given a lot.

Is that a bit clearer?

marienbad · 14-04-2015 01:36PM

ABC101 wrote: »

Good for you Marien.

I hope you are correct in saying you will be most welcome in Heaven.

I however... WRT to myself.... my own salvation... I would make no presumption.

I hope I would be admitted to eternal happiness... however I accept it is by no means certain that I will succeed. God decides my fate... not for me to presume or assume!!

It is not a presumption , just common sense . If one lives a reasonable life , always pulled your own weight , raised a family , never stole or murdered anyone, why wouldn't I ? . And any mistakes made were the result of honest cock ups we all make as we try to muddle through as best we can .

Of course I will get into heaven ( if there is such a place ). It would I presume have Justice as one of its core values ?

As for all those petty 'sins' - sexual excess, sexual 'deviance', not bending the knee, blasphemy, and all those other made up rules - they would not even be an issue . Does anyone really believe that if there was an entity capable of creating not just this world but the whole universe he/she/it would have an interest in the minutiae of our lives ? Or what a 15 year old gets up to in the bedroom in the evening ? Or if you miss mass on Sunday or play football on Sunday? Or who gets married or remarried ?

I don't need the fear of a big bad ogre to want to do the right thing or the shame of disappointing a loving kind Creator either. I think I am safe enough

MaxWig · 14-04-2015 01:38PM

marienbad wrote: »

As for all those petty 'sins' - sexual excess, sexual 'deviance', not bending the knee, blasphemy, and all those other made up rules - they would not even be an issue .

Don't forget stepping over homeless people to grab a latté!

Is that even a sin?

It's all so complicated.

orubiru · 14-04-2015 02:12PM

ABC101 wrote: »

I think I understand your question but not sure.

When a believer calls out to God for help / assistance, it does not mean they are calling out to get entry into Heaven. Frequently people ask God to assist them in lots of things... not just eternal salvation.

For example.... I have a examination to do next week. I am nervous about failing the exam. I study as best as I can... but I also pray for assistance from God to give me the strength to overcome the exam. This request has nothing to do with my salvation.

WRT to myself... I would like to say this about me... and perhaps it will clear up any confusion at your end.

I call on God to assist me lots of times, during the day, during the week etc.

Even though I believe in God, and God frequently answers my requests.... I still do not presume that I will cut the grade for eternal salvation. I believe I have a chance of getting into Heaven..... I have asked for God's help frequently in the past, many problems in my life have been overcome with God's assistance..... but the fact remains...... I still have a number of years left in my life.... and during that time.... I can still mess it all up.

I have to get to the end of my life in God's good books so to speak. I have to finish the race in a state of Grace.

On my death, my entire life will be played back like a video tape, and the actions / decisions during my life will be judged. Everything will be taken into account, good points and bad points etc

I am not the judge, I have never experienced a judgement on another person's soul. So I cannot assume / presume to know where the cut off line is, what is the pass mark? I would imagine there is a lot of factors at play when it comes to the judgement of a persons soul.

From the parable of the Talents... people will be judged slightly differently from each other. To those who have been given a lot.... a lot will be expected. To those who have not been given much... a certain amount will be expected, but it will not be the same as the person who was initially given a lot.

Is that a bit clearer?

Yeah, it makes a lot more sense now.

To be honest, I think I just misunderstood.

Actually, one of the things that makes me feel a little uncomfortable as an Atheist is the fact that people do indeed seem to draw strength or resolve from their God. I feel like it's not exactly good manners to call them out on that. Like if a family member has passed away and people are coping through their belief or faith then I would not exactly be inclined to question their religion at that point.

So when you say God gives you strength to get through exams then I just want to leave that well alone. That's because your belief there is not impacting anyone and it is clearly benefiting you, when you pass the exam.

Where I would take issue though is when people start talking about Gods judgement. When you start talking about how God will judge everyone then you need to back that claim up with proof.

Otherwise, what you are really also doing is making a comment on how you judge everyone. You might not be stating this explicitly but when you hold the belief, that there is a being called God and some people will be allowed into Heaven while others will be cast into Hell on the whims of this being, then you are basically saying that you think some people are not worthy of the God that created them. All this is done without actually proving that God exists and/or created the very people that he will judge.

You must surely have some idea of the criteria by which God will judge a soul? You can't seriously claim to just have "no idea" after claiming so certainly that there is a God and that God will certainly judge everyone as worthy or unworthy?

The problem arises when people start saying things like only God can judge whether or not we will be denied access to Heaven. Nobody likes to be told they are "not good enough". Certainly nobody likes to be told that an imaginary being is going to judge them and decide how they will spend eternity.

Claims like this really require proof and this is why many people do not believe. It's also why people get angry. How dare anyone say that we'll be judged by "God" when they can't even begin to prove that God even exists?

ABC101 · 14-04-2015 02:20PM

marienbad wrote: »

It is not a presumption , just common sense . If one lives a reasonable life , always pulled your own weight , raised a family , never stole or murdered anyone, why wouldn't I ? . And any mistakes made were the result of honest cock ups we all make as we try to muddle through as best we can .

Of course I will get into heaven ( if there is such a place ). It would I presume have Justice as one of its core values ?

As for all those petty 'sins' - sexual excess, sexual 'deviance', not bending the knee, blasphemy, and all those other made up rules - they would not even be an issue . Does anyone really believe that if there was an entity capable of creating not just this world but the whole universe he/she/it would have an interest in the minutiae of our lives ? Or what a 15 year old gets up to in the bedroom in the evening ? Or if you miss mass on Sunday or play football on Sunday? Or who gets married or remarried ?

I don't need the fear of a big bad ogre to want to do the right thing or the shame of disappointing a loving kind Creator either. I think I am safe enough

You are most probably not alone in your viewpoint. I would imagine there are a lot of people who share the same outlook.

However why did you use the words..."fear of a big bad ogre"?

From your view point... if there is a God.... why do you consider him/her/ it to be in the form of a Ogre?

Is it just a flippant throw away comment / figure of speach? Or is it a certain bias on your behalf?

Getting back to the overall theme of your point. God has sent the prophets, and he has also sent his Son, Jesus Christ.

In the teachings of the Gospel.... Jesus tells us various do's and don'ts, one of which is respect for the Holy Spirit.

So even if I have lived a life such as you have described, the fact that I have not given "due process" to God then I would have doubts about my own chances of getting into and staying in Heaven for eternity.

I'm not saying you are wrong... but what I am saying... is that in my opinion... if you ignore God in this life.... you are possibly increasing the chances of God ignoring you in the next life.

orubiru · 14-04-2015 02:24PM

ABC101 wrote: »

However why did you use the words..."fear of a big bad ogre"?

From your view point... if there is a God.... why do you consider him/her/ it to be in the form of a Ogre?

Is it just a flippant throw away comment / figure of speach? Or is it a certain bias on your behalf?

Surely a quick browse of the Old Testament would have most people fearing God? Certainly they would think that He is not something you'd really want to mess with, or disobey?

If they believed the stories, of course.

silverharp · 14-04-2015 02:32PM

ABC101 wrote: »

You are most probably not alone in your viewpoint. I would imagine there are a lot of people who share the same outlook.

However why did you use the words..."fear of a big bad ogre"?

From your view point... if there is a God.... why do you consider him/her/ it to be in the form of a Ogre?

Is it just a flippant throw away comment / figure of speach? Or is it a certain bias on your behalf?

Getting back to the overall theme of your point. God has sent the prophets, and he has also sent his Son, Jesus Christ.

In the teachings of the Gospel.... Jesus tells us various do's and don'ts, one of which is respect for the Holy Spirit.

So even if I have lived a life such as you have described, the fact that I have not given "due process" to God then I would have doubts about my own chances of getting into and staying in Heaven for eternity.

I'm not saying you are wrong... but what I am saying... is that in my opinion... if you ignore God in this life.... you are possibly increasing the chances of God ignoring you in the next life.

But prophets are 2 a penny , wouldn't a deity know that they are an unreliable method of transmitting information . wouldn't a national revelation be more dependable and just?

marienbad · 14-04-2015 03:19PM

ABC101 wrote: »

You are most probably not alone in your viewpoint. I would imagine there are a lot of people who share the same outlook.

However why did you use the words..."fear of a big bad ogre"?

From your view point... if there is a God.... why do you consider him/her/ it to be in the form of a Ogre?

Is it just a flippant throw away comment / figure of speach? Or is it a certain bias on your behalf?

Getting back to the overall theme of your point. God has sent the prophets, and he has also sent his Son, Jesus Christ.

In the teachings of the Gospel.... Jesus tells us various do's and don'ts, one of which is respect for the Holy Spirit.

So even if I have lived a life such as you have described, the fact that I have not given "due process" to God then I would have doubts about my own chances of getting into and staying in Heaven for eternity.

I'm not saying you are wrong... but what I am saying... is that in my opinion... if you ignore God in this life.... you are possibly increasing the chances of God ignoring you in the next life.

I find it curious that you fasten on to 'ogre' statement , particularly as you take it out of context by omitting the rest of the sentence , which reads

''fear of a big bad ogre to want to do the right thing or the shame of disappointing a loving kind Creator ''

Why not ask me if I am exhibiting some sort of bias when I use ' a loving kind Creator' ?

Needless to say I don't believe in the prophets or the saviour or the gospels ,so that question is moot .

As for saying if I ignore God then he will ignore me ! Why would God (if he exists) do that ? As an ant is to us then so am I to God.The all powerful creator of the universe , the original creator of Justice incensed by the puny rebellion of a tiny creature ! I think not .

Furthermore by using the gifts that God (if he exists) gave me , in living a productive life ,in raising a family etc is homage enough for anyone and especially our Creator

ABC101 · 14-04-2015 04:58PM

marienbad wrote: »

I find it curious that you fasten on to 'ogre' statement , particularly as you take it out of context by omitting the rest of the sentence , which reads

''fear of a big bad ogre to want to do the right thing or the shame of disappointing a loving kind Creator ''

Why not ask me if I am exhibiting some sort of bias when I use ' a loving kind Creator' ?

Needless to say I don't believe in the prophets or the saviour or the gospels ,so that question is moot .

As for saying if I ignore God then he will ignore me ! Why would God (if he exists) do that ? As an ant is to us then so am I to God.The all powerful creator of the universe , the original creator of Justice incensed by the puny rebellion of a tiny creature ! I think not .

Furthermore by using the gifts that God (if he exists) gave me , in living a productive life ,in raising a family etc is homage enough for anyone and especially our Creator

If human beings are made in the image of God.... then you personally are God's property... (as all humans are).... then I do not believe God would ignore you, or cast you aside like a insignificant ant etc.

I don't doubt your good works in raising a family, being a good spouse, obeying the law of the land, being a good neighbour etc etc etc.

However..... (philosophically writing)....if humans were made by God.... then it would stand to reason that they are made to also love God. By acknowledging that God exists.... then one is able to love God.

If a person refuses to believe God exists... then that person is unable to love God.

For a believer to follow a Christian faith (I am referring to Chrisitanity only here).... they of course must follow a good life (as you personally mention) but they must also engage in a process of developing a deeper love of God through their faith.

For a Christian.... or a religious believer in a God...... the primary aim of that believer... is to love their God. Love of God can be carried out in many different ways. Obeying the 10 commandments, daily prayer, going to Mass etc etc etc.

Take for example various physical analogies...

A carpenter makes a table and chairs. The purpose of the table and chairs is to serve the carpenter, or provide the carpenter with a living etc

A famer buys a horse.... the purpose of the horse is to help the farmer plough the field for crops.

A diver buys a new wet suit..... the purpose of which is to help the diver when he is diving etc etc etc.

God creates a human being.... the purpose of whom is to love and serve God... follow God's instructions, obey God's laws, go forth mulitply, be good to others etc etc.

If Humans just do their own thing, then they are in effect ignoring the will of God. They have made a deliberate decision to live their life without allowing God to have a invitiation into their life.

As a Christian.... I recognise that if I cut God out of my life... and plough my own furrow... then when I die and go to be judged..... I will have to account for this action.

ABC101 · 14-04-2015 05:15PM

silverharp wrote: »

But prophets are 2 a penny , wouldn't a deity know that they are an unreliable method of transmitting information . wouldn't a national revelation be more dependable and just?

Thousands of years ago.... humanity did not have much in the way of information transmission, there was no fax machines or TV's etc.

Only what could be written on papyrus and stone, mud tablets and various paintings on walls. Alot of people could not read or write.

Certain people were inspired by God to become Prophets. They were human beings who travelled around the regions, making various statements about the coming of Jesus.

In addition... if you chose to ignore the prophets... fair enough. But God also gave each human a conscience. Some people have a well developed conscience, others less so.

How would a Athiest explain the presence of / function of a conscience?
How do you explain a inner feeling of Justice? A inner feeling of right from wrong?

I remember listening to a Detective Garda (on TV) who spoke about certain unsolved crimes. Where the person who committed the crime actually turned themselves in, sometimes several years after the crime. He mentioned / used the word conscience.

So Silverharp..... do you listen to your conscience? Has their been a time when you could hear / feel your conscience gnawing at you. Where you knew the action you were about to take.... did not feel right?

marienbad · 14-04-2015 05:38PM

ABC101 wrote: »

If human beings are made in the image of God.... then you personally are God's property... (as all humans are).... then I do not believe God would ignore you, or cast you aside like a insignificant ant etc.

I don't doubt your good works in raising a family, being a good spouse, obeying the law of the land, being a good neighbour etc etc etc.

However..... (philosophically writing)....if humans were made by God.... then it would stand to reason that they are made to also love God. By acknowledging that God exists.... then one is able to love God.

If a person refuses to believe God exists... then that person is unable to love God.

For a believer to follow a Christian faith (I am referring to Chrisitanity only here).... they of course must follow a good life (as you personally mention) but they must also engage in a process of developing a deeper love of God through their faith.

For a Christian.... or a religious believer in a God...... the primary aim of that believer... is to love their God. Love of God can be carried out in many different ways. Obeying the 10 commandments, daily prayer, going to Mass etc etc etc.

Take for example various physical analogies...

A carpenter makes a table and chairs. The purpose of the table and chairs is to serve the carpenter, or provide the carpenter with a living etc

A famer buys a horse.... the purpose of the horse is to help the farmer plough the field for crops.

A diver buys a new wet suit..... the purpose of which is to help the diver when he is diving etc etc etc.

God creates a human being.... the purpose of whom is to love and serve God... follow God's instructions, obey God's laws, go forth mulitply, be good to others etc etc.

If Humans just do their own thing, then they are in effect ignoring the will of God. They have made a deliberate decision to live their life without allowing God to have a invitiation into their life.

As a Christian.... I recognise that if I cut God out of my life... and plough my own furrow... then when I die and go to be judged..... I will have to account for this action.

The thing is you lost me after the first sentence - ''then you personally are God's property'', . For instance we are all part of a family , first as children and then as parents, my parents never saw me as their property and I don't see my children as my property . Why would you even think of your relationship with your God in that manner ?

All the rest of your post is just your Christianity , and good luck to you with it ,but I could never give myself such a responsibility free ride in life . How is it any different than a child deciding never to grow up and leech off their parents ad nauseum ?

And I wouldn't describe it as ploughing my own furrow, it is trying to live a responsible and caring life , just like you I would say. Complete with a sense of right and wrong and a conscience in my way ,just like you in your way .

They are simply too many impossibilities for me to become a believer .

silverharp · 14-04-2015 05:44PM

ABC101 wrote: »

Thousands of years ago.... humanity did not have much in the way of information transmission, there was no fax machines or TV's etc.

Only what could be written on papyrus and stone, mud tablets and various paintings on walls. Alot of people could not read or write.

Certain people were inspired by God to become Prophets. They were human beings who travelled around the regions, making various statements about the coming of Jesus.

In addition... if you chose to ignore the prophets... fair enough. But God also gave each human a conscience. Some people have a well developed conscience, others less so.

there have been human beings for the last hundred thousand years or more. By the time Judaism kicks off there are humans pretty much everywhere on the planet. why would a deity let a hundred thousand years of humans go by the wayside? it would be simple enough for a deity to contact all his people on a regular basis. Isnt the obvious answer that there is no deity contacting humans.
Again prophets are 2 a penny they are not reliable they leave no evidence behind and when someone bothers to write down anything they said we have additional layers of confusion. A smart diety would work out that future people heck even future christians cant agree with each other.....

ABC101 wrote: »

How would a Athiest explain the presence of / function of a conscience?
How do you explain a inner feeling of Justice? A inner feeling of right from wrong?

I remember listening to a Detective Garda (on TV) who spoke about certain unsolved crimes. Where the person who committed the crime actually turned themselves in, sometimes several years after the crime. He mentioned / used the word conscience.

So Silverharp..... do you listen to your conscience? Has their been a time when you could hear / feel your conscience gnawing at you. Where you knew the action you were about to take.... did not feel right?

sure its part of being human , i have no problem accepting that its part of evolution. Its not evidence that the Jews were right

ABC101 · 14-04-2015 06:01PM

orubiru wrote: »

Yeah, it makes a lot more sense now.

To be honest, I think I just misunderstood.

Actually, one of the things that makes me feel a little uncomfortable as an Atheist is the fact that people do indeed seem to draw strength or resolve from their God. I feel like it's not exactly good manners to call them out on that. Like if a family member has passed away and people are coping through their belief or faith then I would not exactly be inclined to question their religion at that point.

So when you say God gives you strength to get through exams then I just want to leave that well alone. That's because your belief there is not impacting anyone and it is clearly benefiting you, when you pass the exam.

Where I would take issue though is when people start talking about Gods judgement. When you start talking about how God will judge everyone then you need to back that claim up with proof.

Otherwise, what you are really also doing is making a comment on how you judge everyone. You might not be stating this explicitly but when you hold the belief, that there is a being called God and some people will be allowed into Heaven while others will be cast into Hell on the whims of this being, then you are basically saying that you think some people are not worthy of the God that created them. All this is done without actually proving that God exists and/or created the very people that he will judge.

You must surely have some idea of the criteria by which God will judge a soul? You can't seriously claim to just have "no idea" after claiming so certainly that there is a God and that God will certainly judge everyone as worthy or unworthy?

The problem arises when people start saying things like only God can judge whether or not we will be denied access to Heaven. Nobody likes to be told they are "not good enough". Certainly nobody likes to be told that an imaginary being is going to judge them and decide how they will spend eternity.

Claims like this really require proof and this is why many people do not believe. It's also why people get angry. How dare anyone say that we'll be judged by "God" when they can't even begin to prove that God even exists?

Well... I think you are making a assumption that God will cast people into Hell on a whim. (Figure of speach you using here I take it).

Firstly.... in answering your post....

1) Believing in God is open to everybody.... believers and Athiests. Personally you could change from a lack of belief to holding a belief. You get the same chances as I do. That is pretty fair.

2) You take issue with Judgement. Well you have to remember that at the end times.... Judgement will be passed on everybody.... NOT just Athiests.... but ALL persons. When I as a believer... write about Judgement day... it is for all humans... not just Athiests. Believers and Athiests face the same Judge.

Some people are very uncomfortable about this..... however personally I as a believer... did not make Judgement day up. It is mentioned in the Gospels by Jesus, mentioned in the Revelation and various books of the Bible. The people at the time were curious about how things would end, where would the bad guys go? What must be done to achieve getting into Heaven?

If you do research on Hades / Hell / underworld etc etc.... the concept goes back thousands of years.... long before Christianity. The concept of Hell seems to be around when humans first took up residence.

If the concept of good people going to paradise and bad people going to damnation is disagreeable... then why as the concept lasted for thousands of years? Because you cannot be the first or only person to object to the concept. Why has the human race (at the start) said... we would prefer if there was no Hell, just paradise... no matter what way you live your life?

If you are stating that religious people have got it wrong... about Heaven and Hell... fair enough. But how is it the concept exists, even among non Christian people?

Your point about the criteria for God Judging a soul. I cannot speak for God, I cannot say... "well if you do this... it will be o.k. you will stilll get entry into Heaven". I've never been a judge, or being on the other side in God's court....seeing how goes where etc. What I can say / write about is what is written in the Gospels / Bible / various letters etc. However your comment about criteria was asked in the time of Jesus Christ, it is mentioned in the Gospel.... a man asks Jesus... What must I do to merit eternal life.... Jesus answers Loving God, following the 10 commandments etc... and the man answers... All this have I done... and Jesus says... go sell all you have and give to the poor. The man went away downcast... because he had great wealth.

So we do have criteria... from what is written in the Gospels, OT and NT books etc.

Why would I require to back up that with proof? Would you accommodate people in your home who were very distasteful to your family? I don't believe you would. If you had visitors over.... and they started misbehaving.... I think you would throw them out..... or at the very least they would not be invited back for a meal again.

If you are free to chose certain people as friends, and ignore others... then why cannot God do the same? Considering God is a higher being... God must be able to choose.

It is common sense in a way... it is a logical deduction......God wants people who have loved him in Heaven... giving glory to God for eternity. God does not want people who hate him in Heaven. It would be unjust.

If good and bad people go to Heaven... then why bother being good? It would be like passing a driving test... whether you are a good or bad driver, or a medical degree from university, regardless of your result... . you get to qualify.

Well you don't have to get angry over somebody else's belief. Nobody is under any obligation to prove anything to you. Christian believers .... believe that the rules apply to all humans equally. If you enter into the belief system / concept / Theology then the concept of judgement natually comes up.

I can understand your anger... if you say to me... "I don't believe"... and I say to you..."You are going to Hell".... that is not a very nice thing to say to a person.

However... I would say that in my Religon... if you chose to reject God.... there is a increased chance of you being rejected yourself in the next world. That is not the same as saying... "You are definietly going to Hell".

In addition.... while it may not be politically correct to inform a person of their error today. I think it does no harm, it only does a person good... if while they are still alive... to point out the errors that they may be committing in a respectful manner.

If you are going to convience people that your argument is right... you have to kind of bring them with you.... getting their backs up is kind of counterproductive etc

indioblack · 14-04-2015 07:06PM

marienbad wrote: »

It is not a presumption , just common sense . If one lives a reasonable life , always pulled your own weight , raised a family , never stole or murdered anyone, why wouldn't I ? . And any mistakes made were the result of honest cock ups we all make as we try to muddle through as best we can .

Of course I will get into heaven ( if there is such a place ). It would I presume have Justice as one of its core values ?

As for all those petty 'sins' - sexual excess, sexual 'deviance', not bending the knee, blasphemy, and all those other made up rules - they would not even be an issue . Does anyone really believe that if there was an entity capable of creating not just this world but the whole universe he/she/it would have an interest in the minutiae of our lives ? Or what a 15 year old gets up to in the bedroom in the evening ? Or if you miss mass on Sunday or play football on Sunday? Or who gets married or remarried ?

I don't need the fear of a big bad ogre to want to do the right thing or the shame of disappointing a loving kind Creator either. I think I am safe enough

You make an interesting point.
If you mostly live a reasonably good life, fairly "normal" - not too much in excess - basically trying to do the "right" thing - and the believer tries to do the same - how much difference between the two is there?

marienbad · 14-04-2015 08:14PM

indioblack wrote: »

You make an interesting point.
If you mostly live a reasonably good life, fairly "normal" - not too much in excess - basically trying to do the "right" thing - and the believer tries to do the same - how much difference between the two is there?

On the understanding that this is all in a what if mode I believe that if there is any difference it is that I try to do what I believe is right because it is right and not because of any reward/compulsion incentive .

J C · 14-04-2015 08:21PM

MaxWig wrote: »

Don't forget stepping over homeless people to grab a latté!

Is that even a sin?

It's all so complicated.

It's not complicated at all ... you sin when you don't do unto others as you would like others to do unto you.

If I were homeless, I think I would like other people to be considerate and kind to me.

Last time I was out and I saw a poor homeless person I talked respectfully to him and gave him some money for his personal use.

He is just as much a valued child of our loving God, a I am.

I didn't ignore him and step over him in my rush to become a conspicuous consumer of a frothy coffee ... which would probably only increase my cholesterol, anyway!!!
Anytime we're tempted to look down on somebody going throught a tough situation, just remember that 'there I go ... but for the grace of God'.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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