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Australia to stop welfare payments for parents who dont vacinnate their kids

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Comments

  • #32
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    Red Alert wrote: »
    I think they should make social welfare and particularly child benefit contingent on school attendance and staying out of trouble with the law.


    Make much more sense than stopping child benefit because refuse to vaccinate their children. If someone make that choice, so be. It is disgusting to stop child benefit on that basis.


  • #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    very dark road we are travelling down here

    The very dark road is allowing these idiots to get away with not vaccinating their child. We're getting outbreaks of diseases that we just shouldn't have because of them.

    I think that if you don't vaccinate your child, then said child should be banned from anywhere they can infect others. Parents should face extremely hefty fines or even prison sentences if it is shown that their child is responsible for infecting others.

    If they're not going to listen to 99.99999% of doctors (because 0.000001% should have their licence revoked) then they'll listen to their pockets and their lives being hit.


  • #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kylith wrote: »
    Not as much as withholding money needed for food, clothing, etc.
    So your proposal to address anti-scientific benightedness is to remove access to education from their offspring?


  • #35
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,700 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Why is a religious reason for not vaccinating your kids acceptable!

    I would suspect it is the Aboriginal angle that prompted that clause.


  • #36
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    In Australia homeschooling is common enough due to the remote nature of many areas.

    I left out the word 'here' meaning countries like Ireland which I had presumed One eyed Jack was referring to. There was a lot kids schooled by radio in the Australian outback back in the day, wasn't there?


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  • #37
    LadyAthame
    Closed Accounts Posts: 793 ✭✭✭LadyAthame


    I think counseling and medical advice should be offered first. Most parents are doing it out an sense of protection for their child. But after that you need to be extreme to protect that family. It's for the parents own good too. If their child should fall ill they would never forgive themselves. You have to remember it's primal fear and ignorance that makes parents do this. They don't want their child to be ill. I know people want to think they are knuckle dragging christian jihadists or something but the truth is they are just frightened. Parenthood is overwhelming and the truth is different people have different levels of education and this shapes their view of the world.

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/04/anti-vaxx-mom-abandons-movement-after-all-seven-her-of-her-kids-get-whooping-cough/
    “We had vaccinated our first three children on an alternative schedule and our youngest four weren’t vaccinated at all. We stopped because we were scared and didn’t know who to trust,” she explained. ” Was the medical community just paid off puppets of a Big Pharma-Government-Media conspiracy? Were these vaccines even necessary in this day and age? Were we unwittingly doing greater harm than help to our beloved children?
    For all of that above read fear. And yes some people are more paranoid than others.
    It's a lack of a proper relationship with their family physician too. You should trust your family physician is decent and competent. I think conveyer belt go systems negate that relationship.


  • #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    So your proposal to address anti-scientific benightedness is to remove access to education from their offspring?

    The sad thing is that there have already been outbreaks because of these people. I'd rather see a child being taken out of education over the risk of dozens being infected.


  • #39
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Nobody is forcing anyone to comply with the state though. Dont look for money off the state and you dont have to comply.

    And those who don't comply and don't look for money off the state aren't penalised at all and get a free pass to destroy herd immunity?


  • #40
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    That certainly used to be the way things were alright, but now more and more parents are choosing to homeschool their children. It's not quite at the level here yet that it is in the US, but we've already had one high-profile case in Ireland, can't find the exact case now but to give you some idea -


    http://www.magicmum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=445612

    Can't see anything in that link.

    Are you talking about the case where Monica O'Connor was sent to prison for homeschooling her children?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/mumofsix-released-from-jail-after-imprisonment-over-home-schooling-dispute-30558961.html

    Considering I'd seen the likes of Breda O’Brien, David Quinn and several Christian news sites leaping to their defence, I'm guessing their was a religious motivation as to why they homeschooled their kids.

    Here's David Quinn giving a healthy dose of Godwinning in his article about it.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/nazis-were-the-first-to-ban-homeschooling-for-kids-30563617.html


  • #41
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,310 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »
    Because God will take care of those ones. Medical science is only necessary for heathen spawn.
    Actually, some "heathen spawn" are allergic to ingredients, so can't take it, but are protected by "herd immunity" keeps them safe.


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  • #42
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The people who are mostly against vaccines for their children are well-educated, affluent liberals. They simply don't trust medicine any more, instead justifying their actions by saying it's their right and their personal choice and they're refusing to vaccinate their children because of the idea of "putting harmful chemicals" in their children's bodies.

    Homeschooling is fast becoming another liberal idea because they don't trust the education system, the same education system that gave them their education - too dangerous for their special little snowflakes.

    I think this applies here in Ireland but these measures in Australia are being directed in the main at the indigenous people who are to a huge extent dependent on State aid but are uncooperative with lots of programs to the same extent.


  • #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The sad thing is that there have already been outbreaks because of these people. I'd rather see a child being taken out of education over the risk of dozens being infected.
    Outbreaks of what? If children are already vaccinated and up-to-date, I don't see how non-vaccinated children can represent a statistically significant danger to them.

    Vaccinations should be compulsory, as should publicly supervised education, in my opinion. No get-outs.


  • #44
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Can't see anything in that link.

    Are you talking about the case where Monica O'Connor was sent to prison for homeschooling her children?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/mumofsix-released-from-jail-after-imprisonment-over-home-schooling-dispute-30558961.html


    That's the one alright.

    Considering I'd seen the likes of Breda O’Brien, David Quinn and several Christian news sites leaping to their defence, I'm guessing their was a religious motivation as to why they homeschooled their kids.

    Here's David Quinn giving a healthy dose of Godwinning in his article about it.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/nazis-were-the-first-to-ban-homeschooling-for-kids-30563617.html


    I'm not surprised really that those nutbars will use anything to further their own agenda either, but I don't think it was specifically religious reasons that they wanted to homeschool their children (92% of schools in Ireland are religious ethos). I did get a chuckle out of DQ's closing comments though -

    That is why it is very bad thing when the State either forbids home-schooling or makes it almost impossible. When the State does that it is suppressing a very important expression of non-conformity. This is why we should cherish home-schooling as a matter of principle.


    When he and his ilk make a living out of telling people how disastrous non-conformity would be for society... :pac:


  • #45
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,621 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    cheekypup wrote: »
    not really, their respective church can pay for the childs healthcare at no cost to the state or the taxpayer.
    But will their church also pay for the healthcare costs of the other children that the non vaccinated children infect also? I doubt it somehow.
    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Outbreaks of what? If children are already vaccinated and up-to-date, I don't see how non-vaccinated children can represent a statistically significant danger to them.

    Vaccinations should be compulsory, as should publicly supervised education, in my opinion. No get-outs.
    Vaccination isn't a 100% get-out-of-jail-free card. Even vaccinated individuals can catch a lesser case of some diseases due to an exposure to a large challenge from a disease carrying individual. Not all diseases, mind, just some.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Outbreaks of what? If children are already vaccinated and up-to-date, I don't see how non-vaccinated children can represent a statistically significant danger to them.

    Vaccinations should be compulsory, as should publicly supervised education, in my opinion. No get-outs.

    Measles.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2015/02/01/anti-vaccine-movement-causes-worst-measles-epidemic-in-20-years/

    If I remember right, there were outbreaks in New York too? I also think there have been outbreaks of other diseases.

    I'm sure someone will explain it better, but even if your child is vaccinated, I believe they can still get the disease. Someone smarter than me will explain it better.


  • #47
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Outbreaks of what? If children are already vaccinated and up-to-date, I don't see how non-vaccinated children can represent a statistically significant danger to them.

    Vaccinations should be compulsory, as should publicly supervised education, in my opinion. No get-outs.

    Not everyone can be vaccinated. As well as that, unvaccinated people are vessels in which mutations can occur which can infect people who are already vaccinated.

    Outbreaks also occur, obviously, within groups of unvaccinated people.


  • #48
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,365 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Can't see anything in that link.

    Are you talking about the case where Monica O'Connor was sent to prison for homeschooling her children?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/mumofsix-released-from-jail-after-imprisonment-over-home-schooling-dispute-30558961.html

    Considering I'd seen the likes of Breda O’Brien, David Quinn and several Christian news sites leaping to their defence, I'm guessing their was a religious motivation as to why they homeschooled their kids.

    Here's David Quinn giving a healthy dose of Godwinning in his article about it.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/nazis-were-the-first-to-ban-homeschooling-for-kids-30563617.html

    she wasnt sent to prison for homeschooling her children. She refused to allow the department of education check that her children were getting educated properly. She was brought to court. She was fined. She was "jailed" for not paying the fine. What makes the story even worse is that her husband is a secondary school teacher. You would hope that he knew better.


  • #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    Vaccination isn't a 100% get-out-of-jail-free card. Even vaccinated individuals can catch a lesser case of some diseases due to an exposure to a large challenge from a disease carrying individual. Not all diseases, mind, just some.
    Like what disease?

    Like I said, statistically significant.
    Deleted User wrote: »

    I'm sure someone will explain it better, but even if your child is vaccinated, I believe they can still get the disease. Someone smarter than me will explain it better.
    Provided the vaccinations are up-to-date, I don't believe that is the case, except on rare occasions.


  • #50
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,365 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Outbreaks of what? If children are already vaccinated and up-to-date, I don't see how non-vaccinated children can represent a statistically significant danger to them.

    Vaccinations should be compulsory, as should publicly supervised education, in my opinion. No get-outs.

    vaccination success rates for mumps are only in the mid-80s.


  • #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    vaccination success rates for mumps are only in the mid-80s.
    Not according to the first google hit I clicked on, which put it up to 95% when vaccines are up-to-date.

    The extremely high effectiveness is why all children should be vaccinated, and why vaccination should be mandatory by law.

    In my opinion, that's the road we should be going down. Instead of refusing to educate children already exposed to gross parental stupidity.


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  • #52
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,365 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Not according to the first google hit I clicked on, which put it up to 95% when vaccines are up-to-date.

    The extremely high effectiveness is why all children should be vaccinated, and why vaccination should be mandatory by law.

    In my opinion, that's the road we should be going down. Instead of refusing to educate children already exposed to gross parental stupidity.

    only in the mid 80s for mumps according to this http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/04/18/304155213/why-mumps-and-measles-can-spread-even-when-were-vaccinated

    But even with 95% that still leaves 5% where the vaccination doesnt take. so 1 child in a class of 20. I agree that vaccinations should be mandatory. but there has to be a penalty for those who dont. Financial penalties seem useful. Not allowing unvaccinated children to possibly infect that 1 child that the vaccination didnt work for also doesnt seem unreasonable to me.


  • #53
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I'm not surprised really that those nutbars will use anything to further their own agenda either, but I don't think it was specifically religious reasons that they wanted to homeschool their children (92% of schools in Ireland are religious ethos).
    :pac:

    Breda O'Brien, another teacher whose children are homeschooled and mouthpiece for the Iona Institute, is good friends with them. I reckon there's definitely a conservative Christian bent to the reason why they want to homeschool.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/defending-the-right-to-home-educate-children-1.1891594


  • #54
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    she wasnt sent to prison for homeschooling her children. She refused to allow the department of education check that her children were getting educated properly. She was brought to court. She was fined. She was "jailed" for not paying the fine. What makes the story even worse is that her husband is a secondary school teacher. You would hope that he knew better.

    You're right. I used the popular line parroted by the media at the time when I should have been more concise.


  • #55
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    I am honestly sickened at the number of people who think that vaccinations should be compulsory. I wonder are there other civil liberties that some people would like to see taken from certain people.


  • #56
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,365 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    I am honestly sickened at the number of people who think that vaccinations should be compulsory. I wonder are there other civil liberties that some people would like to see taken from certain people.

    you think everybody has the right to infect children who either couldnt be vaccinated for medical reasons or children where the vaccination didnt take? that you have a right to create your own little typhoid mary?


  • #57
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    I am honestly sickened at the number of people who think that vaccinations should be compulsory. I wonder are there other civil liberties that some people would like to see taken from certain people.

    You understand how vaccinations work don't you? For them to be effective 96% to 99% of the population needs to have been vaccinated, read up on herd immunity and then come back and say its sickening http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

    Or better yet talk to some of the parents in the states who went to Disneyland with their baby who was vaccinated yet was still infected by another child which wasnt and the baby died as a result, now thats sickening


  • #58
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,267 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    Tzardine wrote: »

    I think it's a great idea. How irresponsible can a person be to not vaccinate their children. Usually the tinfoil hat brigade.

    Who/what is the tinfoil hat brigade ?


  • #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    I am honestly sickened at the number of people who think that vaccinations should be compulsory. I wonder are there other civil liberties that some people would like to see taken from certain people.
    Nobody should have the "civil liberty" to expose their children to harmful, life-threatening viruses.


  • #60
    daheff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭daheff


    Gatling wrote: »
    Why not when you think about it .
    Person smokes 40 a day and heap of pints and fatty foods.
    there piss poor choices lead to meddical conditions that are fairly costly to treat in the long run .
    and yet they end up paying next to nothing


    but they do. for example they pay VAT, excise & duties on pints & smokes. If nobody smoked or drank then the government would not receive these taxes. Any sensible government (don't see any around though...) would keep these taxes for medical care for medical conditions caused by using these substances.


    same with fatty foods that are bad for you.

    Unfortunately the government cant have it both ways on the taxes


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  • #61
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,365 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    keeponhurling wrote: »
    Who/what is the tinfoil hat brigade ?

    those who think vaccinations are a government conspiracy to do ... something. it varies depending on which lunatic you listen to.


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