Ukraine: As it happens.

Egginacup · 06-04-2015 12:56PM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Russia has invaded Ukraine. To say otherwise is ridiculously naive. They denied that Russian troops were in Crimea, annexed it, then admitted they were there. click. He denied they were there with the same fervent attitude that he uses now.

I disagree with the Saudi intervention in Yemen (I don't think it counts as an "invasion" either, since their ground forces are yet to cross the border), what was your argument about? You just ranting? Why are you arguing about what goes on in Saudi Arabia? You know what the funny thing is? That's Saudi law, which is applicable in Saudi Arabia. What exactly are you moaning about, the fact some posters don't like Russia's laws, and aren't simultaneously hating Saudi Arabia's laws? You know who else have terrible human rights records? Uganda. And Iran. And Turkmenistan. And Mali. And Nigeria. And Cameroon... Why don't you talk about them? I'll tell you why. It's because they're not relevant to the debate, and not relevant to the European Union or the United States' position in the world.

You know what the difference between KSA and Russia is? The KSA doesn't stand in the West's way. The Saudis know what side their bread is buttered on. They prop up US dollar-oil trade, they don't directly oppose the US or EU. Russia does. That is why Russia's invasion of Ukraine is unjustified in the West's books. Russia's "anti-gay" laws are what is used to rationalize the Western publics perception against Russia, because many people refuse to believe Russia is a bad guy when it comes to imperialist ambitions and think only the US and EU are imperialist powers.

Nope. Again you're trying to say that Russia's annexation of Crimea is evidence of a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine. Two completely different situations. We're not talking about Crimea. We're not talking about the legitimate plebiscite that voted overwhelmingly to return Crimea to Russia and we're not talking about the 1000's of Russian troops that were stationed in Crimea (at Kiev's agreement) since 1991.

That cheap trick has been tried umpteen times here and it doesn't work. So please stop.

Egginacup · 06-04-2015 01:03PM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Has anyone said they support the Saudis and opposed the Russians, or are you imagining things to make your argument sound relevant? Genuine question.

I'm not sure if they do support the Saudi invasion of Yemen. But if they do then they should have no problem with the fictional Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine and if they oppose it then they should be a lot more vociferous in calling for sanctions against Saudi Arabia for engaging in a plain as day invasion rather than supporting sanctions against Russia for allegedly engaging in something that can't even be verified.

Genuine answer.

Egginacup · 06-04-2015 01:30PM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Russia has invaded Ukraine. To say otherwise is ridiculously naive. They denied that Russian troops were in Crimea, annexed it, then admitted they were there. click. He denied they were there with the same fervent attitude that he uses now.

I disagree with the Saudi intervention in Yemen (I don't think it counts as an "invasion" either, since their ground forces are yet to cross the border), what was your argument about? You just ranting? Why are you arguing about what goes on in Saudi Arabia? You know what the funny thing is? That's Saudi law, which is applicable in Saudi Arabia. What exactly are you moaning about, the fact some posters don't like Russia's laws, and aren't simultaneously hating Saudi Arabia's laws? You know who else have terrible human rights records? Uganda. And Iran. And Turkmenistan. And Mali. And Nigeria. And Cameroon... Why don't you talk about them? I'll tell you why. It's because they're not relevant to the debate, and not relevant to the European Union or the United States' position in the world.

You know what the difference between KSA and Russia is? The KSA doesn't stand in the West's way. The Saudis know what side their bread is buttered on. They prop up US dollar-oil trade, they don't directly oppose the US or EU. Russia does. That is why Russia's invasion of Ukraine is unjustified in the West's books. Russia's "anti-gay" laws are what is used to rationalize the Western publics perception against Russia, because many people refuse to believe Russia is a bad guy when it comes to imperialist ambitions and think only the US and EU are imperialist powers.

Bombing a sovereign country in contravention to INTERNATIONAL LAW (not Saudi Law) is ok then. It's not an "invasion" since Saudi troops haven't crossed into Yemen. Are you being serious?

What about the Saudi invasion of Yemen in 2009/2010?
Where were the sanctions and international condemnation then?

I'm glad you're smart enough to recognise that KSA, like Egypt is a client state of US/NATO and I'm glad that you recognise that US/EU are are expansionist and will deal harshly with anyone who attempts to resist their ambitions to control the economies of the world along with the resources that underpin them.

Before the scrappy-doos come out yapping about NWO and sh1t like that I would say "go away".

You mention that Russia has imperialist ambitions. To paraphrase yourself this is fantastically naive.

Russia in general and Putin in particular agreed to dissolve the Warsaw Pact and enter into a new era of detente if Washington agreed not to advance eastwards. Washington agreed verbally and Russia trusted them. Washington then betrayed that trust.

You can't conduct an ongoing campaign of open hostility and aggression against a nation, accuse THEM of aggression and expect them not to be defensive. Especially since many of them are still visiting the graves of the 25 million dead friends, relatives, loved ones and comrades each day that died in the last Western attack on their nation.

Jews and Israelis bitterly remember the holocaust and bristle with apprehension when anti-Semitism rears its head. Is it not understandable that Russians would feel the same fears?

You say Russia is standing in the way of the West. You're damn right they are the same way that the West would stand in Russia's way if Russia decided that it was a good idea to orchestrate a coup in Mexico City or Ottawa and install a pro-Moscow junta that then proceeded to carve up Mexican or Canadian industries and hand them over to Gazprom and Rosneft and Russian agri-business much like what the US/EU are trying to do with the Ukraine.

Egginacup · 06-04-2015 02:29PM

Just thought I'd post this to see what people think since this thread is "Ukraine as it happens".

It would appear that Kiev citizens themselves are not in the slightest bit happy with the regime that was installed and is handing out appointments to foreigners and oligarchs.

Apparently this demonstration got no attention internationally and even Ukrainian authorities refused to cover it and pulled whatever coverage surfaced online.

I can't verify this but if it was staged for other than authentic purposes then why try to hide it?

http://offguardian.org/2015/04/03/were-not-cattle-kiev-protesters-throw-manure-at-us-embassy/

Renegade Mechanic · 06-04-2015 02:56PM

I personally don't believe for a second that Russia wants to overrun Europe. Who in their right mind would seek to inherit what the EU has done to itself??

Russia might barely have the numbers/equipment to try, and try well, but it would be a guaranteed failure. There's no military threat to us. Russia is all about defence. By that token, no country could hope to insert themselves behind their lines and stay for long. In this case, they're defending their interests. Chiefly, trade with Ukraines industry heavy east. Do I agree with it? Not necessarily. But the minerals obtained from a deliberately war torn African country in the battery within my phone, is making it possible for me to type this, so it would be hypocritical of me to agree with the fact that the "west" has been doing the very same thing for a very, very long time and has now, been given something of a wake-up call for trying it with an equal power.

IrishTrajan · 06-04-2015 02:58PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Bombing a sovereign country in contravention to INTERNATIONAL LAW (not Saudi Law) is ok then. It's not an "invasion" since Saudi troops haven't crossed into Yemen. Are you being serious?

What about the Saudi invasion of Yemen in 2009/2010?
Where were the sanctions and international condemnation then?

I'm glad you're smart enough to recognise that KSA, like Egypt is a client state of US/NATO and I'm glad that you recognise that US/EU are are expansionist and will deal harshly with anyone who attempts to resist their ambitions to control the economies of the world along with the resources that underpin them.

Before the scrappy-doos come out yapping about NWO and sh1t like that I would say "go away".

You mention that Russia has imperialist ambitions. To paraphrase yourself this is fantastically naive.

Russia in general and Putin in particular agreed to dissolve the Warsaw Pact and enter into a new era of detente if Washington agreed not to advance eastwards. Washington agreed verbally and Russia trusted them. Washington then betrayed that trust.

You can't conduct an ongoing campaign of open hostility and aggression against a nation, accuse THEM of aggression and expect them not to be defensive. Especially since many of them are still visiting the graves of the 25 million dead friends, relatives, loved ones and comrades each day that died in the last Western attack on their nation.

Jews and Israelis bitterly remember the holocaust and bristle with apprehension when anti-Semitism rears its head. Is it not understandable that Russians would feel the same fears?

You say Russia is standing in the way of the West. You're damn right they are the same way that the West would stand in Russia's way if Russia decided that it was a good idea to orchestrate a coup in Mexico City or Ottawa and install a pro-Moscow junta that then proceeded to carve up Mexican or Canadian industries and hand them over to Gazprom and Rosneft and Russian agri-business much like what the US/EU are trying to do with the Ukraine.

"Egypt is a client of US/NATO", you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you? The Egyptians have been having falling outs with the US, they even went so far as to buy Rafales from France despite already having one of the largest (American-built) airforces in the region. The "military junta" in Egypt was also in response to Muslim Brotherhood leader attempting to become a dictator (they protected democracy), and when people began protesting against him.

And, like I said, I oppose the Saudi intervention. You went from talking about Saudi'ws human rights and anti-gay records, to talking about them breaking international law in Yemen (if they believe that the Houthis pose a credible threat to them, they can strike first, btw). Stop moving the goal posts.

The U.S. isn't going to sanction the Saudis. They need them to prop up the dollar-oil trade.

The EU and US don't need to be expansionist, they already control the world economies (EU and US are around $19 trillion and $18.5 trillion respectively, I believe). They are however interested in making more money. The US wants to maintain the balance of power, the EU wants to make things more productive (which is why the US opposed China's AIIB, despite their European allies backing it). If the West wanted unquestioned hegemony over the world, they'd take China out. They'd flood western China with weapons, they'd cut China's trade across Asia, they'd embargo Chinese sales (which the West can do without, China's trade is hardly one dealing in necessities).

The USSR reneged on their deals with the allies and annexed the Warsaw countries in the first place. You can't break an agreement, then bítch and moan when the other side does the same to you.

Open hostility? By putting soldiers in allies' cities, after Russia abducts allied citizens and parades them in Moscow (Estonian border agent, Sept. 2014)? By putting MIM-104 batteries in Poland to defend against the Iskander-Ms that Russia have in Kaliningrad? By flying reconnaissance flights near Russia, after Russia flies nuclear bombers near your airspace? Don't be so daft, Russia is as, if not more, imperialist as the West.

"25 million dead". You mean the ones who were largely self-inflicted? You mean the same war that they only survived, because the US and UK gave them equipment needed to fight a war? Germany invades Russia, US saves Russia, the Russians are now justified in hating the US because of Germany? That is the level of thinking you're using.

The Americans didn't orchestrate that genocide, nor did the French, or the British, or the Italians, nor the Belgians/Dutch (USSR nuclear doctrine actually dictated nuclear strikes on Italy and the Low Countries, as messages to Britain and France to not get involved).

The Russians also committed mass genocide on German families in the aftermath of the war, driving the Germans from Königsberg through forced migration or death. The Russians did the same to the Circassians, driving them south into the interior of the (then) Ottoman Empire. Should the Turks, Syrians, Iraqis be supported against the Russians?

I support Crimea's union with Ukraine, if it is in the majority's will. However, that doesn't mean you can ignore the fact that it was an annexation, and you can't ignore the fact the Russia is fighting in Ukraine. Here's the link again. And it isn't just "a few soldiers", it is Russian commanders ordering the surroundings and providing manpower support.

To say the Russians aren't in Ukraine, is to say the Iranians aren't in Syria, and aren't in Iraq. It is to say that the US isn't in central Asia. It is to say that Pakistan isn't in Afghanistan. It is absolutely farcical and naive.

Russia was charging extortionate gas prices to Ukraine (which they do with other countries as well, they charge the smaller neighbours for more, it's why the EU is pushing for integrated energy markets, so we can trade as a bloc), Russia was cutting gas off in the middle of winter and leaving old people to freeze to death. Russia sanctioned Ukraine's dairy exports to Russia, so Ukraine turned to the EU for financial help. Then, with its sphere of influence threatened, Russia began a militant campaign in eastern Ukraine.

Let me give you another example: If Britain embargoed Ireland's exports, and cut off the gas after charging us extortionate prices for it, and we turned to the US for aid, would you support Britain's invasion and letting loyalists bomb the Republic? No, because that is absolutely nonsensical.

You're not trying to be reasonable, you're trying to string together poorly formed arguments in an attempt to hide anti-Western and pro-Russian values.

The West rationalizes Saudi interventionism as a necessity to counter the Iranian influence (both countries are as bad as each other with human rights records) in the region (Iran's sanctions aren't because of their human rights, it's because of their nuclear ambitions). However, Russia's invasion of Ukraine does not benefit us, so we have the luxury of applying morality to this scenario. In this instance, Russia's invasion of Ukraine (to deny that Russian commanders and soldiers are there is absolute folly) is entirely unjustified.

I'm explaining to you why the West isn't cutting the Saudis' economy (it'd be like a person giving you the €5 you need to get on the bus, and then slapping him because he beat up his girlfriend before expecting him to give you another €5 for the bus back).

Also, you keep saying "they support", "they oppose", "they ignore"... Who are you talking about? Can you give me quotes or names?

IrishTrajan · 06-04-2015 03:04PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

I personally don't believe for a second that Russia wants to overrun Europe. Who in their right mind would seek to inherit what the EU has done to itself??

Russia might barely have the numbers/equipment to try, and try well, but it would be a guaranteed failure. There's no military threat to us. Russia is all about defence. By that token, no country could hope to insert themselves behind their lines and stay for long. In this case, they're defending their interests. Chiefly, trade with Ukraines industry heavy east. Do I agree with it? Not necessarily. But the minerals obtained from a deliberately war torn African country in the battery within my phone, is making it possible for me to type this, so it would be hypocritical of me to agree with the fact that the "west" has been doing the very same thing for a very, very long time and has now, been given something of a wake-up call for trying it with an equal power.

What has the EU done to itself, pray tell? Become the largest economic power on the planet? Become one of the best places to live?

Russia's only trick is their nuclear weapons, which is suicide to use (for instance, France have what they call the "soft-to-hard" approach, where any nuclear attack on their infrastructure [civilian or military] will warrant a nuclear retaliation against civilian centres). Russia's economy is smaller than Italy's, for feck sake. The Russians aren't anything but a fly in the EU's space.

I agree with you, the West shouldn't scream abuse at the Russians for imperialism... Just like the Russians shouldn't scream abuse at the Westerners for imperialism. But, what we have, is Russia screaming loudly and equating anti-imperialism with anti-westernism, while NATO's reputation results in people believing Russia can do no harm.

Fun fact: China has increased their holding in Africa, with over 2000% increase in repatriation from Africa to China. The age of Western imperialism is dead, it is the Indians, Brazilians and Chinese fighting over Africa now.

darkpagandeath · 06-04-2015 03:13PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Nope. Again you're trying to say that Russia's annexation of Crimea is evidence of a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine. Two completely different situations. We're not talking about Crimea. We're not talking about the legitimate plebiscite that voted overwhelmingly to return Crimea to Russia and we're not talking about the 1000's of Russian troops that were stationed in Crimea (at Kiev's agreement) since 1991.

That cheap trick has been tried umpteen times here and it doesn't work. So please stop.

Goal post's

>

Irish Praetorian · 06-04-2015 03:18PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Just thought I'd post this to see what people think since this thread is "Ukraine as it happens".

It would appear that Kiev citizens themselves are not in the slightest bit happy with the regime that was installed and is handing out appointments to foreigners and oligarchs.

Apparently this demonstration got no attention internationally and even Ukrainian authorities refused to cover it and pulled whatever coverage surfaced online.

I can't verify this but if it was staged for other than authentic purposes then why try to hide it?

http://offguardian.org/2015/04/03/were-not-cattle-kiev-protesters-throw-manure-at-us-embassy/

You bring us an article from a news source I've never heard off, which is reporting from 'Life News' a Russian outlet who's owner expressed the the explicit desire to make Putin 'look good', as your smoking gun - and you daub us as being gullible and attempting to mislead?

Has this piece met your required standards of 'authenticity'? Have you anything more than these 'unsubstantiated photos'? Has any senior media figure 'put their name to these allegations'? Does this pass muster as Real Proof for you?

Come on, what are you exactly, contrarian, paid up Putin troll, rabid anti-American, Russia nationalist? Feel free to PM me in confidence, I don't mind.

Egginacup · 06-04-2015 03:24PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

There was no "no" option it was join Russia or devolve all powers to Russia was it not.

Why would the alternative to rejoining Russia be to recognise the legitimacy of an illegally installed junta that toppled a leader that most Crimeans voted for? The choice was rejoin Russia or reinstate the popular mandate of the majority of the Ukrainian people prior to the illegal coup.

If you don't like the outcome then tough luck. The people of Crimea weren't coerced. They were given two democratic choices and instead of staying home and abstaining they voted in unprecedented numbers to return to Russia. These are the facts. Uncomfortable as they may be for you they are still the facts.

As it stands 90% of the Crimean people are happy, one year on, with their status as part of Russia and the childish myth that only 30% of the people voted and did so with guns to their heads is an embarrassing joke.

IrishTrajan · 06-04-2015 03:30PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Why would the alternative to rejoining Russia be to recognise the legitimacy of an illegally installed junta that toppled a leader that most Crimeans voted for? The choice was rejoin Russia or reinstate the popular mandate of the majority of the Ukrainian people prior to the illegal coup.

If you don't like the outcome then tough luck. The people of Crimea weren't coerced. They were given two democratic choices and instead of staying home and abstaining they voted in unprecedented numbers to return to Russia. These are the facts. Uncomfortable as they may be for you they are still the facts.

As it stands 90% of the Crimean people are happy, one year on, with their status as part of Russia and the childish myth that only 30% of the people voted and did so with guns to their heads is an embarrassing joke.

Yanukovych was toppled by the majority of Ukrainians, not some minor shadow group. The Americans didn't come in and bomb the Government, the British didn't attack Crimea like Al-Faw. It was the will of the majority to rid themselves of Yanukovych.

"Two democratic choices".. How on earth is "Give us control over all your institutions and policies" any different to "Give us control over all your institutions and policies"?

Don't hide imperialism behind a facade of democratic actions.

Egginacup · 06-04-2015 03:56PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

You bring us an article from a news source I've never heard off, which is reporting from 'Life News' a Russian outlet who's owner expressed the the explicit desire to make Putin 'look good', as your smoking gun - and you daub us as being gullible and attempting to mislead?

Has this piece met your required standards of 'authenticity'? Have you anything more than these 'unsubstantiated photos'? Has any senior media figure 'put their name to these allegations'? Does this pass muster as Real Proof for you?

Come on, what are you exactly, contrarian, paid up Putin troll, rabid anti-American, Russia nationalist? Feel free to PM me in confidence, I don't mind.

Yes, I bring you an article from a source of which you haven't heard. And a source that I have, myself had the wherewithal to doubt. By comparison you have fronted satellite imagery from "Digital Globe", not the CIA or GCHQ, and you expect this to be taken as proof of a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine?

Irish Praetorian · 06-04-2015 04:07PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Yes, I bring you an article from a source of which you haven't heard. And a source that I have, myself had the wherewithal to doubt.

A pity you didn't subject it to any of the rigorous inquiry that you appear to reserve for anything that might run contrary to your views. Instead you are happy to share with us all your speculations ruminate on all manner of malicious possibilities, something you quite clearly and defensively refuse to even consider when it comes to anything that might suggest Russian interference.

By comparison you have fronted satellite imagery from "Digital Globe", not the CIA or GCHQ, and you expect this to be taken as proof of a Russian invasion of esteem Ukraine?

Analysed by NATO and released with the appropriate detail from the same - I dare say a more reliable source than 'Life News' and yourself, unless you're hiding some long experience in military analysis that has year to reveal itself in your posts.

Egginacup · 06-04-2015 04:18PM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Yanukovych was toppled by the majority of Ukrainians, not some minor shadow group. The Americans didn't come in and bomb the Government, the British didn't attack Crimea like Al-Faw. It was the will of the majority to rid themselves of Yanukovych.

"Two democratic choices".. How on earth is "Give us control over all your institutions and policies" any different to "Give us control over all your institutions and policies"?

Don't hide imperialism behind a facade of democratic actions.

Yanukovich was NOT deposed by the majority of Ukrainians. This is a lie and I challenge you to back it up much the same way that I am challenging you to furnish proof of a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine.

darkpagandeath · 06-04-2015 04:35PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Yanukovich was NOT deposed by the majority of Ukrainians. This is a lie and I challenge you to back it up much the same way that I am challenging you to furnish proof of a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine.

Really ? then why did he run away and turn up in Russia ? Ahh is this a sly jib at the Nazis did it or CIA black ops or other nonsense. We don't have to prove Crimea it's already come from the horses mouth.

Gatling · 06-04-2015 05:44PM

Wonder why a certain poster doesnt want to talk about viktor and the missing billions belonging to the ukranian people

darkpagandeath · 06-04-2015 06:10PM

Gatling wrote: »

Wonder why a certain poster doesnt want to talk about viktor and the missing billions belonging to the ukranian people

Yup has dodged it every time with defection and random ramblings about western interference and "Proooooofs". Now when Crimea is brought up as it has been reported from the top, Now that met with but but that's not eastern Ukraine.

Iranoutofideas · 06-04-2015 08:43PM

Egginacup wrote: »

The "left" ?

Just wondering where the invasion by Russia of eastern Ukraine is, and by those who claim it is actually real and a terrible thing yet they have know problem with the recent Saudi invasion of Yemen.

Kinda simple, no?

Quoted you by accident, sorry. I actually agree with you on the nonsense posted here concerning Ukraine & Russia.

IrishTrajan · 06-04-2015 08:52PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Yanukovich was NOT deposed by the majority of Ukrainians. This is a lie and I challenge you to back it up much the same way that I am challenging you to furnish proof of a Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine.

I've linked you like five times to news articles of Russian soldiers admitting that they were sent by the Govt. into Ukraine. Hell, the leaders of the insurgent groups are ex-Russian intelligence and military commanders.

You're ignorant and naive, and I'm done arguing with you. You've not refuted any other point, but try to shout louder than the people answering you, and when they do answer you, you just shout the question again in the hopes they get bored before wandering off to set a kitten on fire, or whatever it is you people do.

Have a nice day.

Elmer Blooker · 06-04-2015 08:59PM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

https://news.vice.com/article/russian-soldiers-have-given-up-pretending-they-are-not-fighting-in-ukraine

We all don't believe what we read but if you do then good luck to you!

In August 2013, Rupert Murdoch's corporation 21st Century Fox invested $70 million (US) in Vice Media (of which VICE News is a division)

Irish Praetorian · 06-04-2015 09:06PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

We all don't believe what we read but if you do then good luck to you!

Keep going with that. What you're meaning to say is that you think that Vice News did what? Fabricate stories on behalf of Rupert Murdoch? Take part in some vast conspiracy to damn Russia? Out of interest, if a Jewish investor had forked over the cash, would you take the view that they were part of some paid up Israeli control of the media?

IrishTrajan · 06-04-2015 09:22PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Keep going with that. What you're meaning to say is that you think that Vice News did what? Fabricate stories on behalf of Rupert Murdoch? Take part in some vast conspiracy to damn Russia? Out of interest, if a Jewish investor had forked over the cash, would you take the view that they were part of some paid up Israeli control of the media?

Current CIA chief's father was born in Roscommon, making CIA chief half-Irish. Both Obama and Biden claim Irish ancestry, and the Supreme Court Justice and his wife both claim Irish-ancestry.

It must be some sort of an Irish conspiracy, it has to have been planned from the beginning!

Vice is worth $2.5bn, I'm sure that $70mn investment was what would've made or broke them!

It couldn't possibly have been that Murdoch is, you know, a business man and wanted to invest in a growing business...

Bill Gates has large investments in oil/gas companies, as does Richard Branson. I'm sure they're both going to be denying climate change! Oh wait, neither of them do, and in fact both of them invest in alternative energy companies...

Some people see daggers where there aren't any.

Gatling · 06-04-2015 09:39PM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Current CIA chief's father was born in Roscommon, making CIA chief half-Irish. Both Obama and Biden claim Irish ancestry, and the Supreme Court Justice and his wife both claim Irish-ancestry.

It must be some sort of an Irish conspiracy, it has to have been planned from the beginning!

Vice is worth $2.5bn, I'm sure that $70mn investment was what would've made or broke them!

It couldn't possibly have been that Murdoch is, you know, a business man and wanted to invest in a growing business...

Bill Gates has large investments in oil/gas companies, as does Richard Branson. I'm sure they're both going to be denying climate change! Oh wait, neither of them do, and in fact both of them invest in alternative energy companies...

Some people see daggers where there aren't any.

Don't forget about Connor McGregor in all of that Irish conspiracy

IrishTrajan · 06-04-2015 09:41PM

Gatling wrote: »

Don't forget about Connor McGregor in all of that Irish conspiracy

Ah, the Notorious. I hear he's quite the character and has a direct hook up to some "Dana White", if you know what I mean.

Egginacup · 06-04-2015 11:24PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

A pity you didn't subject it to any of the rigorous inquiry that you appear to reserve for anything that might run contrary to your views. Instead you are happy to share with us all your speculations ruminate on all manner of malicious possibilities, something you quite clearly and defensively refuse to even consider when it comes to anything that might suggest Russian interference.

Analysed by NATO and released with the appropriate detail from the same - I dare say a more reliable source than 'Life News' and yourself, unless you're hiding some long experience in military analysis that has year to reveal itself in your posts.

First off...I never stated that the link I provided was in ANY way proof of anything. I merely proffered it and I think I was quite clear in stating that I couldn't verify any of it. I would expect you to at least recognise that.

Secondly NATO has NOT in any way shape or form lent credence and veracity to the authenticity of these images from "Digital Globe".
There have been the odd sap or patsy ...even that clown "Breedlove" stating that images of this nature show a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine. The pictures he showed made even the most junior American and European analysts gasp with "wtf" incredulity.

SO......

ARE WE EVER GOING TO GET PROOF THAT RUSSIA INVADED EASTERN UKRAINE?

Please...no instagram pics of a rusted tank. No grainy "Digital Globe" images of trucks "CLOSE" to the border.

Where is the evidence of a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine?

After a YEAR....the RED ARMY has not only not been seen crossing the border into Eastern Ukraine but they have been stopped dead in their tracks. Yet not a single column of Russians have been seen advancing nor has a single column of Russians been seen fleeing under a defensive Ukrainian onslaught.

Is a photograph of a rusted tank going to be the evidence of Russian invasion? Not John Simpson and Rageh Omar and Katty Kay there with helmets and kevlar vests on them speaking into the camera as Russian forces trundle past them towards Lviv and Kiev?

Egginacup · 06-04-2015 11:36PM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I've linked you like five times to news articles of Russian soldiers admitting that they were sent by the Govt. into Ukraine. Hell, the leaders of the insurgent groups are ex-Russian intelligence and military commanders.

You're ignorant and naive, and I'm done arguing with you. You've not refuted any other point, but try to shout louder than the people answering you, and when they do answer you, you just shout the question again in the hopes they get bored before wandering off to set a kitten on fire, or whatever it is you people do.

Have a nice day.

Evidence of a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine please.

Not a photograph of a rusted tank, not some trickery about Crimea, not some 3rd part snapshots of trees and trucks.

REAL evidence, backed up by Western Intelligence services. REAL evidence by correspondents on the ground. REAL evidence backed up by REAL people.

Is that too much to ask?

IrishTrajan · 06-04-2015 11:45PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Evidence of a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine please.

Not a photograph of a rusted tank, not some trickery about Crimea, not some 3rd part snapshots of trees and trucks.

REAL evidence, backed up by Western Intelligence services. REAL evidence by correspondents on the ground. REAL evidence backed up by REAL people.

Is that too much to ask?

I posted the link about five times. Or are Vice news journalists just imaginary?

"REAL evidence, backed up by Western Intelligence services."

Are you taking the mickey, or do you think intelligence services don't keep everything they can "classified" and only release information once it has no more use?

Russia denied having troops in Crimea. Russia annexed Crimea. Russia admitted to having had troops in Crimea. Russia denies having troops in Luhansk and Donetsk, and you believe them?

If I told you I have money for a night out, and we went out then told you I didn't and we both ended up sitting on our asses for the day... Would you believe me the next time I said I had money, despite someone knowing me (in this instance, the Russian soldier talking about Russia, not to mention the fact that the commanders of the LPR and DNR are led by Russian military/intelligence officers) telling you that I don't have money? Would you trust me, or not?

Believing the word of liars, after they told you that they're liars is retarded.

Irish Praetorian · 07-04-2015 12:10AM

Egginacup wrote: »

First off...I never stated that the link I provided was in ANY way proof of anything. I merely proffered it and I think I was quite clear in stating that I couldn't verify any of it. I would expect you to at least recognise that.

You have spent this thread doing nothing but scoffing at other users and writing with enough faux emotion to supply 10 X-Factors, all in an attempt to divert from your utterly unsustainable position, which has at this stage been reduced to little more than long winded expressions of how unimpressed you are with the rest of us, studious evasion of the central points and occasionally diversionary comments that might be dubbed in other arguments as 'whataboutery'.

Secondly NATO has NOT in any way shape or form lent credence and veracity to the authenticity of these images from "Digital Globe".
There have been the odd sap or patsy ...even that clown "Breedlove" stating that images of this nature show a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine. The pictures he showed made even the most junior American and European analysts gasp with "wtf" incredulity.

...

"NATO has NOT in any way shape or form lent credence"

...despite releasing the images from their CCOM Center and stating "The satellite images released today provide additional evidence that Russian combat soldiers, equipped with sophisticated heavy weaponry, are operating inside Ukraine’s sovereign territory,"

Are you familiar with the concept of 'wilful blindness'?

Incidentally, where are your 'most junior American and Europe analysts' and pray tell why you would be taking the reaction of the most junior of these figures for that matter?

SO......

ARE WE EVER GOING TO GET PROOF THAT RUSSIA INVADED EASTERN UKRAINE?

Please...no instagram pics of a rusted tank. No grainy "Digital Globe" images of trucks "CLOSE" to the border.

Where is the evidence of a Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine?

After a YEAR....the RED ARMY has not only not been seen crossing the border into Eastern Ukraine but they have been stopped dead in their tracks. Yet not a single column of Russians have been seen advancing nor has a single column of Russians been seen fleeing under a defensive Ukrainian onslaught.

Is a photograph of a rusted tank going to be the evidence of Russian invasion? Not John Simpson and Rageh Omar and Katty Kay there with helmets and kevlar vests on them speaking into the camera as Russian forces trundle past them towards Lviv and Kiev?

Will Shaun Walker suffice? Or is he another paid up shill of the big western conspiracy to fabricate falsehoods about Russia?

Elmer Blooker · 07-04-2015 12:47AM

Shaun Walker? Wasn't he the one along with a Telegraph journalist who "witnessed" a Russian "invasion" last August?
The next day (Aug 15th) Porky announced that this invasion of Russian armour had been destroyed but apparently theres absolutely no photographic evidence of any invasion or burning Russian armour! (think of what a propaganda coup that would have been!)

Irish Praetorian · 07-04-2015 12:53AM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Shaun Walker? Wasn't he the one along with a Telegraph journalist who "witnessed" a Russian "invasion" last August?
The next day (Aug 15th) Porky announced that this invasion of Russian armour had been destroyed but apparently theres absolutely no photographic evidence of any invasion or burning Russian armour! (think of what a propaganda coup that would have been!)

I have replied to your previous post if you would like to take me up on that.

To address your central point - well you would have to make one first.

Ukraine: As it happens.

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