Islamic Militants Attack. Again..

Saipanne · 03-04-2015 10:36AM

Paul was born in Tralee, Co Kerry. He is white and Irish. His parents also were, and their parents, etc. Paul likes GAA, Thin Lizzy and going to movies. When Paul was 21 he saw a Islamic Understanding seminar at college and was intrigued. A year later he converted to Islam. He continues to like the same things, and lives happily as a Muslim.

Ahmed was born in Sana'a, Yemen to Yemenese parents, going way back. Ahmed was born and raised a Muslim. He likes to play soccer and meeting his friends to drink tea and eat food. He is like any ordinary Arab of that region.

According to some. These people were born of different race, but due to Paul's decision to convert at 21, they are now one and the same race.

In my world, they happen to believe the same idea. That is all there is to it. If they both happened to be socialist, it would be the same for me. So when their idea leads to bad things happening, that idea should rightly be criticised in public, and if this offends anyone that is their problem. We are free to criticise ideas in this part of the world.

People who try to fuse the concept of religion and race are attempting to silence that criticism with bullying tactics, and are beneath contempt, in my eyes.

Vomit · 03-04-2015 10:37AM

Maybe if we wipe out Catholicism, the IRA will never return! :rolleyes:

Seriously, looking at the replies of young people here makes me despair. Assembly-line ill-considered views on the world, handed to you by the deities of internet secularism like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, et al. Why don't you people get a scissors to that Conor McGregor haircut and start thinking for yourselves..?

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 10:38AM

Saipanne wrote: »

There you go confusing race with religion...

No no the opposite. Forget race and religion and police crimes where and when they happen. I have no idea how to be any clearer on that.

Saipanne · 03-04-2015 10:40AM

Vomit wrote: »

Maybe if we wipe out Catholicism, the IRA will never return! :rolleyes:

Seriously, looking at the replies of young people here makes me despair. Assembly-line ill-considered views on the world, handed to you by the deities of internet secularism like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, et al. Why don't you people get a scissors to that Conor McGregor haircut and start thinking for yourselves..?

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

DeadHand · 03-04-2015 10:40AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

They did join hands around the synagogue in Paris to symbolically shield the Jews from attacks from extremists. Does that kind of thing appeal to you at all or what would you like to see them do?

The same Jews who have largely disappeared from the Muslim world due to the intolerance of the Muslim majority? The same Jews that are fleeing Europe at a rate not seen since the 30s in the face of the growing belligerence of the burgeoning Muslin populations here?

Of course, being generally a little too light skinned and successful to be darlings of the victim industry here as well as their tormentors being especially beloved of that industry combined with the naturally occuring anti semetism ever present in Europe anyway this is a largely unreported ethnic cleansing. Muslim anti-Semitism has been imported to combine with indigneous anti-Semitism to form a two headed dragon that is making Europe hell for the Jews right now and seeing their ancient communities here disappear.

This issue is largely ignored. The one time a thread on it was attempted here it was pulled down by an unholy alliance of Left and hard Right, including many posters who rush to defend Islam unconditionally after every Islamic outrage.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 10:45AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I don't have the statistics for islamist terrorism but most terrorism has historically been middle class in origin, by which I mean by the perpetrators are university graduates in the main or heading that way. From the red brigades to the A students running off to Syria. (The IRA was an exception).

It's just not true that poverty alone causes these acts or poverty alone, which exists everywhere, would lead to these acts of violence everywhere. It doesn't. Kenya isn't the poorest part of Africa either and southern Africa is free of head chopping as it is free of Islamists.

Yes and no on education and the IRA. It depends on whether there is genuine inequality. There were plenty of educated comfortable people involved in the Republican cause when there was genuine institutional discrimination before the war of independence and before the troubles in NI.

Now we have solved most of the problems in NI and you won't find many Wolfetones or Robert Emmitts involved in modern day IRA activity. Just thuggish gang members like any organised crime

osarusan · 03-04-2015 10:48AM

DeadHand wrote: »

including many posters who rush to defend Islam unconditionally after every Islamic outrage.

Unconditionally, you say?

Such nonsense.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 10:55AM

DeadHand wrote: »

The same Jews who have largely disappeared from the Muslim world due to the intolerance of the Muslim majority? The same Jews that are fleeing Europe at a rate not seen since the 30s in the face of the growing belligerence of the burgeoning Muslin populations here?

Of course, being generally a little too light skinned and successful to be darlings of the victim industry here as well as their tormentors being especially beloved of that industry combined with the naturally occuring anti semetism ever present in Europe anyway this is a largely unreported ethnic cleansing. Muslim anti-Semitism has been imported to combine with indigneous anti-Semitism to form a two headed dragon that is making Europe hell for the Jews right now and seeing their ancient communities here disappear.

This issue is largely ignored. The one time a thread on it was attempted here it was pulled down by an unholy alliance of Left and hard Right, including many posters who rush to defend Islam unconditionally after every Islamic outrage.

I have no idea how to respond to that. Rather than phrasing it in rhetorical questions, could you just tell me what you actually think.

I think the response to threats against Jews has been quite appropriate. They deployed thousands of french troops to guard synagogues, schools and places of interest to Jews, after the Charlie hebdo attack. How many Jews were actually attacked or killed? I don't think there were many but I'm glad the response was to protect them all the same.
.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 11:00AM

Some posters feel pretty certain that moderate Muslims should do something about the violent extremists but nobody has suggested what exactly.

I'm also waiting to hear what the same posters did about the Catholic sex abuse and the IRA targeting of protestants.

Personally I didn't do much about it except not abuse children or join the IRA. I'm not sure what else I should have done so I'm hoping my friends will enlighten me.

wretcheddomain · 03-04-2015 11:03AM

It would be wrong to say the religion of Islam is the primary cause, but religion does play a role when it comes to political objectives.

After all, many of these mass murderers sincerely hold to the view that a martyr's paradise awaits them once they die - which is a powerful motive, if not spur, to commit the atrocity in the first place.

Second, religion plays a political role, as evidenced in this latest massacre, where Muslims were allowed to roam free while Christians could be taken out on a whim.

The problem I have is when individuals argue over whether these mass murderers are doing is for purely political or religion reasons when, in fact, it is very much a blending of the two.

RomanKnows · 03-04-2015 11:04AM

What time does Nodin get up?

Eugene Norman · 03-04-2015 11:04AM

Vomit wrote: »

Maybe if we wipe out Catholicism, the IRA will never return! :rolleyes:

Seriously, looking at the replies of young people here makes me despair. Assembly-line ill-considered views on the world, handed to you by the deities of internet secularism like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, et al. Why don't you people get a scissors to that Conor McGregor haircut and start thinking for yourselves..?

You mean if people don't subscribe to the "islam has nothing to do with violence by Islamists" they aren't "thinking for themselves".

I personally think these kind of posts should be cardable. It's a mixture of well poisoning( Harris etc) generalised ad hominems, and we don't actually get your actual arguments.

I think it's unfair and stupid to blame muslims for violence in the name of Islam, or to ask moderate Islam to do something but it's equally stupid to not attribute some blame to Islamic texts.

In the IRA example ( which wasn't sectarian but nationalist) moderate nationalists weren't personally responsible for the actions of the IRA but the texts of what was then moderate nationalism -- basically the irredentist belief that the country should be "re-united" regardless of unionist opinion, was. We changed that with the good Friday agreement.

Mint Aero · 03-04-2015 11:08AM

Sorry is this ISIS now? Or IS or are they now IM (Islamic militants?)

Either way they need to be crushed under the weight of the moon colliding with Earth at 28,000mph resulting from a gravitational pull caused by the black holes in the vast void in their empty stupid heads. Then nuked for good measure.

Us cool normal humans can live on mars since these f*ckwits destroyed Earth with their f*ckwittetry.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 11:09AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I think it's unfair and stupid to blame muslims for violence in the name of Islam, or to ask moderate Islam to do something but it's equally stupid to not attribute some blame to Islamic texts.

In the IRA example ( which wasn't sectarian but nationalist) moderate nationalists weren't personally responsible for the actions of the IRA but the texts of what was then moderate nationalism -- basically the irredentist belief that the country should be "re-united" regardless of unionist opinion, was. We changed that with the good Friday agreement.

That's probably a better take on NI than I wrote above.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 11:10AM

Mint Aero wrote: »

Sorry is this ISIS now? Or IS or are they now IM (Islamic militants?)

Either way they need to be crushed under the weight of the moon colliding with Earth at 28,000mph resulting from a gravitational pull caused by the black holes in the vast void in their empty stupid heads. Then nuked for good measure.

Us cool normal humans can live on mars since these f*ckwits destroyed Earth with their f*ckwittetry.

They were mostly sentences.

Mint Aero · 03-04-2015 11:15AM

cheers

DeadHand · 03-04-2015 11:16AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think the response to threats against Jews has been quite appropriate. They deployed thousands of french troops to guard synagogues, schools and places of interest to Jews, after the Charlie hebdo attack. How many Jews were actually attacked or killed? I don't think there were many but I'm glad the response was to protect them all the same.

Can't find a figure for the exact breakdown of the religions of the CH victims. I know at least one was a Muslim. Given the surnames of the victims and the fact a Jewish grocery was deliberately targetted, it's safe to assume many of the victims were Jewish.

The reaction of the French police in protecting Jewish establishments was indeed proper and good to see but also sad proof of the fact that the (dwindling) Jewish population of Paris is under serious intimidatory pressure and threat of violence from elements within the (rapidly growing) Muslim population there.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 11:18AM

Mint Aero wrote: »

Doesn't answer my question. Try again.

I have no idea what this group call themselves. I'll wait for the dust to settle and read about it when there are some established facts available.

DeadHand · 03-04-2015 11:18AM

RomanKnows wrote: »

What time does Nodin get up?

He commented on this six hours ago and made a perfectly reasonable point.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 11:25AM

DeadHand wrote: »

Can't find a figure for the exact breakdown of the religions of the CH victims. I know at least one was a Muslim. Given the surnames of the victims and the fact a Jewish grocery was deliberately targetted, it's safe to assume many of the victims were Jewish.

The reaction of the French police in protecting Jewish establishments was indeed proper and good to see but also sad proof of the fact that the (dwindling) Jewish population of Paris is under serious intimidatory pressure and threat of violence from elements within the (rapidly growing) Muslim population there.

I don't think that's a fair assumption at all. The main commonality those CH victims had was the fact that they worked at CH. I could be wrong but I don't think the attackers targeted specific employees based on further demographics.

There could have been Jews amongst them but I don't think that's why they were killed.

The second paragraph could be true but I dont know enough of the specifics. It sounded like an over reaction to leave France especially given the french government support for protecting them from harm. The individual Jews are best placed to make that decision though.

Comparisons with 1930s seemed silly given the government support in the 2015 case.

AndonHandon · 03-04-2015 11:40AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't think that's a fair assumption at all. The main commonality those CH victims had was the fact that they worked at CH. I could be wrong but I don't think the attackers targeted specific employees based on further demographics.

There could have been Jews amongst them but I don't think that's why they were killed.

The second paragraph could be true but I dont know enough of the specifics. It sounded like an over reaction to leave France especially given the french government support for protecting them from harm. The individual Jews are best placed to make that decision though.

Comparisons with 1930s seemed silly given the government support in the 2015 case.

It is a fact that Muslims strive to eradicate Jews from Earth. The fact they happened to work for CH was incidental.

Israel has done Jewish people no favours whatsoever because people associate jews with Israel and the war crimes but for Jews in the rest of the world life is a constant plight against anti-semetism.

Akrasia · 03-04-2015 11:44AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

No no the opposite. Forget race and religion and police crimes where and when they happen. I have no idea how to be any clearer on that.

These kinds of attacks aren't crimes, they're ideologically motivated atrocities, and you can't treat them like any other crime.

Normally when a crime is committed, the goal is to catch the individuals involved and punish them and isolate them from society so they can not commit more crimes in the future.

With these attacks, there's no point in only targeting the perpetrators, because many of them want to be caught and want to die so that they can become martyrs and inspire others to continue their cause.

With ideologically inspired atrocities, there needs to be a massive, focused rebellion against the ideology that is inspiring this violence.

When we had scumbags rioting at football games, and shouting racist slogans and attacking fans of other teams, it wasn't enough to simply arrest the individuals caught committing the crimes, it was required that all the parties involved, the teams, the police, the football associations, legislators, immigration officials at airports etc all came together to crack down on anyone who was known to support this ideology and prevent them from operating and isolate them from the wider football supporters

It is only with this concerted effort by all the good guys to say in no uncertain terms, that hooliganism in sport is unacceptable and will not be tolerated, and violates the very essence and spirit of the sport, that we have moved on from the dark days of the 1990s

We need to do the same thing with islamic extremism. If you're a normal muslim who just wants to worship in private and your values are compatable with western values (ie, you reject genital mutilation, you support education for women, you support freedom of expression and equal rights for men and women and you respect the democratic institutions of the state and you don't secretly wish to live under a totalitarian sharia state) then you should stand up shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the civilised world in condemning the violent murderous barbarism of these extremist islamicist ideologies.

Genuine sports fans should be outraged that anyone wearing their team jersey throws an insult, or a bottle, or a punch in the name of their team. Genuine peaceful muslims should be outraged and disgusted in the same manner, that anyone would murder children in the name of their god.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 11:48AM

AndonHandon wrote: »

It is a fact that Muslims strive to eradicate Jews from Earth. The fact they happened to work for CH was incidental.

Israel has done Jewish people no favours whatsoever because people associate jews with Israel and the war crimes but for Jews in the rest of the world life is a constant plight against anti-semetism.

It's probably a fact in the same sense as it's a fact that Catholic and protestants strove to wipe each other out in the past. Most people just go to work and play with their kids in the evening. They're just too tired to murder each other
Or maybe like most people, they don't care to hurt other people.

I'm too busy to devote myself to the aul racism

DeadHand · 03-04-2015 11:52AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't think that's a fair assumption at all. The main commonality those CH victims had was the fact that they worked at CH. I could be wrong but I don't think the attackers targeted specific employees based on further demographics.

There could have been Jews amongst them but I don't think that's why they were killed.

The second paragraph could be true but I dont know enough of the specifics. It sounded like an over reaction to leave France especially given the french government support for protecting them from harm. The individual Jews are best placed to make that decision though.

Comparisons with 1930s seemed silly given the government support in the 2015 case.

It's fair to see the Jewish grocery incident as part of the CH massacre since both sets of perpetrators were known to each other, ideological comrades and one inspired the other. When you deliberately target a Jewish grocery it's a fairly clear attack on a certain demographic.

The Jews as a people have, through tragic historical experience, developed an excellent sense for when things are about to get ugly. It takes more than paranoia or over reaction for people to leave homes they've inhabited for generations. The fact is they are, in the best cases, leaving for good reason and, in the worst cases, being rooted out. The fact they are disappearing either way should worry everyone. When the Jews have finally gone, who's next?

In terms of severity and governmental involvement any comparisons with the 30s are, of course, silly. I never made such a comparison. I simply pointed out that the Jews are leaving at a rate not seen since the 30s.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 11:54AM

Akrasia wrote: »

These kinds of attacks aren't crimes, they're ideologically motivated atrocities, and you can't treat them like any other crime.

I was referring specifically to the Rotherham child sex abuse which should have been treated as sex abuse rather than Muslim business. I don't care about their demographics.

DeadHand · 03-04-2015 12:02PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm too busy to devote myself to the aul racism

For the millionth time, because Islam is a religion and not a race and Muslims are not a race but the adherents of a religion any criticism of the belief systems of Muslims or Islam itself, no matter how invalid, cannot be described as racism. I know it's a powerful word to use in an argument and does much to boost your liberal credentials but it' s use in this case is plain wrong.

To me and most other honest critics of Islam a white, blue eyed, Irish Islamist is just as much threat to Western democratic civilisation as a brown, brown eyed, Pakistani Islamist.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 12:13PM

Akrasia wrote: »

I agree with most of the analogy except you want normal Muslims to stand shoulder to shoulder with everyone else. What would that look like? They are constantly on the news saying they don't agree with boko haram and isis but that's too easy to brush aside. They formed a ring around synagogues in Paris but that didn't impress the poster earlier. So when you say they should stand shoulder to shoulder with you, where will they find you?

Also what did you do about the catholic sex abusr and IRA? The normal Muslims Could do whatever you did.

With the football analogy I take your point in principal. However the majority of fans always went along to football matches without behaving like idiots. When the crack down happened, the good'uns didn't change anything. They just continued to go to matches and not behave like idiots.

I work with a Scottish, Rangers fan. He goes to football matches to watch football and cheer his team.

I'd argue it's the same with regular muslims. They just continue to go about their live without being arźeholes. I'd say most muslims talk over dinner about what eejits the boys in Kenya are. I can't really see what else your local 9-5 Mo can do about it.

shy-tall-knight · 03-04-2015 12:30PM

Not all Muslims are terrorist's. Most terrorist's are Muslim.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-04-2015 12:44PM

shy-tall-knight wrote: »

Not all Muslims are terrorist's. Most terrorist's are Muslim.

That's probably true. I'd also bet that the majority are male, poor, uneducated, in minority groups in their countries, don't have fair political representation and have slim chance of education and upward mobility. Would you agree with that?

Akrasia · 03-04-2015 12:52PM

shy-tall-knight wrote: »

Not all Muslims are terrorist's. Most terrorist's are Muslim.

I think we rephrase this to say 'Not all fundamentalists are terrorists, most terrorists are fundamentalists'

Islam by 'virtue' of which parts of the world it is most entreched, has not been so heavily affected by the civilising influence of stable political structures, relative prosperity, and secular education systems and so the islamic fundamentalists are more medieval than the christian fundamentalists, and their economic situation means that they have less to lose and more to gain from becoming militant.

The more fundamentalist your beliefs are about anything, the more likely you are to take it too far and commit acts of violence and terrorism

Fundamentalists can be either political, or religious, or even influenced by a semi random cultural phenomenon

The main differences between religious fundamentalists and other kinds of fanatics, are
1. That religion can't be tested and has this in built immunity to any form of evidence.
2. Religion has a privileged position in discourse where it is not something that people are prepared to discuss or challenge openly.

If someone becomes obsessed with Michael Jackson and builds a shrine to him and reacts violently if someone criticises him, people recognise that this is unhinged behaviour, but if someone does exactly the same thing for a religious figure, they are seen as devout and their delusion is respected and protected.

There is a lower threshold of mental illness required by a religious fundamentalist to deny reality because their beliefs are validated by the wider society that says that it's ok to have delusional beliefs about your place in the universe as long as its based on 'faith'

Islamic Militants Attack. Again..

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